jwrevagent wrote:
My point was that a baby is not actually able to live on its own, nor is a toddler, nor actually is a teen. They breathe, yes, but babies and toddlers cannot provide for themselves. I was using a broader definition of "viability" than normal-but if the baby is not a human baby at conception, then what is it? Elephant babies are elephants in the womb-no one expects a goat, for instance, out of an elephant, and I could go on. If this fertilized egg, which has all the DNA markers for all of its characteristics is not human, than what is it? And if it is not human, when does it become human? Roe v Wade answered none of those questions that I can see, yet approved the removal of a growing human from a mother's uterus for wh**ever reasons they gave. So again, we know it is alive, because it is growing-presumably it is human, thus it has the right to life-otherwise why are some people who k**l pregnant women charged with two murders-there was one in Milwaukee a few years ago, and he was charged and found guilty of the murder of two human beings. So, which is it? That is my question.
My point was that a baby is not actually able to l... (
show quote)
Roe vs Wade used Christian theology and the canon law which fixed the point of animation at 40 days for a male and 80 days for a female, a view that persisted until the 19th century, there was otherwise little agreement about the precise time of formation or animation. There was agreement, however, that prior to this point the fetus was to be regarded as part of the mother, and its destruction, therefore, was not homicide.
In the thirteenth century, Catholic theologian Thomas Aquinas wrote that a soul enters the body at 40 days after conception for males and 80 days for females. That became church doctrine for many centuries, and a******n before that time of ensoulment was not considered a mortal sin. The belief that life begins at conception apparently has its origins in an 1869 decree by Pope Pius IX that a******n at any point in pregnancy was cause for excommunication.
In the early Roman Catholic church, a******n was permitted for male fetuses in the first 40 days of pregnancy and for female fetuses in the first 80-90 days. Not until 1588 did Pope Sixtus V declare all a******n murder, with excommunication as the punishment. Only 3 years later a new pope found the absolute sanction unworkable and again allowed early a******ns. 300 years would pass before the Catholic church under Pius IX again declared all a******n murder. This standard, declared in 1869, remains the official position of the church, reaffirmed by the current pope.
Church Doctrine
A number of churches, including United Church of Christ, Episcopal,Presbyterian (USA) and United Methodist, do not approve of a******n as a means of birth control. However, they support the right of a woman to obtain an a******n, if she deems that is the best choice in her circumstances, and they favor keeping a******n legal.
https://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_a******n.htmOther churches, including Roman Catholic and Southern Baptist, oppose all a******ns and favor making a******n illegal. Here is a sampling of official church positions from the three largest denominations in the U.S.
Roman Catholic:
Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.
Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured a******n. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct a******n, that is to say, a******n willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law.
From Catechism of the Catholic Church, (c) 1994, United States Catholic Conference, Inc.,
http://www.nccbuscc.org/catechism/text/index.htmSouthern Baptist:
Procreation is a gift from God, a precious trust reserved for marriage. At the moment of conception, a new being enters the universe, a human being, a being created in God's image. This human being deserves our protection, wh**ever the circumstances of conception.
From Position Statements, Copyright (c) 1999 - 2001, Executive Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention,
http://sbc.net/default.asp?url=position-statements.htmlUnited Methodist:
The beginning of life and the ending of life are the God-given boundaries of human existence. While individuals have always had some degree of control over when they would die, they now have the awesome power to determine when and even whether new individuals will be born. Our belief in the sanctity of unborn human life makes us reluctant to approve a******n. But we are equally bound to respect the sacredness of the life and well-being of the mother, for whom devastating damage may result from an unacceptable pregnancy. In continuity with past Christian teaching, we recognize tragic conflicts of life with life that may justify a******n, and in such cases we support the legal option of a******n under proper medical procedures. We cannot affirm a******n as an acceptable means of birth control, and we unconditionally reject it as a means of g****r se******n. We oppose the use of late-term a******n known as dilation and extraction (partial-birth a******n) and call for the end of this practice except when the physical life of the mother is in danger and no other medical procedure is available, or in the case of severe fetal anomalies incompatible with life. We call all Christians to a searching and prayerful inquiry into the sorts of conditions that may warrant a******n. We commit our Church to continue to provide nurturing ministries to those who terminate a pregnancy, to those in the midst of a crisis pregnancy, and to those who give birth. Governmental laws and regulations do not provide all the guidance required by the informed Christian conscience. Therefore, a decision concerning a******n should be made only after thoughtful and prayerful consideration by the parties involved, with medical, pastoral, and other appropriate counsel.
From The Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church--2000, ¶161J. Copyright 2000 by The United Methodist Publishing House,
http://www.umc.org/abouttheumc/policy/The whole discussion about a******n has varied history it took the church awhile to agree when a******n becomes murder. The law right or wrong has leveled the field so who can support the child can. Those who can't support the child know what is available to help make a decent decsion. Like I've mentioned before informed consent , safety for both the mother and child,
And the requirement to inform parents if underage mother's is enforced by the language in the law. Is it time to update the law probably ,things have changed
But giving rights to one and then taking them from another shouldn't be allowed.