jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

The wisdom of man is folly, how much we don't understand about the depths of God's creation.

robert66

You should not look forward to death at all. The logical thing to do is resist dying. The fatalistic desire to die is what makes religion so messed up. You don't really want to die but pretend that if you do, you don't. All these things about flying around or getting your own planet or some virgins actually encourages some to kill others or helps them justify suicide. We don't need the Bible or any other book to have a moral sense of right and wrong. You can actually see it in many animals. Imagine, no religion.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

O.K. That's covers step #1

Let's progress to step #2

The Koran entry that deals with -
2) The name of the king or ruler who would command the conquering army?

Alternate 2) The name of the ruler who would conquer Rome.

3) The koran entry that deals with how Islam proves it love for their conquered enemies.

robert66

You do appear somewhat smug in your opinion of others that know God is a made up thing, an image of your imagination. What you believers have a hard time understanding is that the doubters, as you would see them, are not empty or lacking direction. Their belief is as strong as yours and where the real difference lies is in the judgement of those who believe differently. A non believer recognizes that religion has some qualities that can be helpful to some whereas a believer thinks others that do not subscribe to his fantasies will suffer some terrible consequences for not falling into line and attempts to either guilt or scare others into following. The reason that agnostics or atheists do not like religions is the damage it can and has caused.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

You simply are projecting what you feel when you post an article.
You say I cannot know there is a God, yet you can know God is made up.

I have no opinion about unbelievers, other than a feeling of duty to share with them a different perspective that works for me. I have sense enough to know it doesn't work for everyone. "Smug?" Please indicate the words in my post from which you gather such an evaluation.



Nope! I was created in an image of God's imagination.



Again, you are projecting your own evaluation. I do not consider them empty nor lacking direction. In fact, I spend a lot of my time attempting to convey to them that there is a great deal of similarity between a believer and an unbeliever, divided only by a gulf of insecurity over their ability to make decisions about whether to take a chance on God, or not.

They aren't sufficiently grounded in their own capability to spot a scam, and think all religious thinkers are out to scam them.



I agree with that.



You must have had some bad discussions with believers. You will not find any of that nonsense in my posts. I do not share "religious fantasies," I usually offer scripture references, sometimes attempt to clarify something I think may be misunderstood. I do not spend any time making scarestuff arguments. I try to spend time showing the good side of Christianity, like "Christ living in me," to help me when I weaken.
I think that's kind encouraging, not scary. Jesus did not come to judge the world, and neither should we.



If that were true, they would not go to doctors either. Nor would they listen to teachers, or work for bosses. It is not religion that causes so much hurt and confusion, it is scholars vying for control. Just like some teachers will follow their own private agenda, and some bosses will nearly destroy a business over petty stuff.

Religion is simply an effort to bring out the best in our fellow men, based upon a standard of behaviour just a tad higher than we design for ourselves; and based upon the possibility there is a benevolent higher power overseeing it all.

And as we continue to pursue this benevolent higher power, based upon claims provided by Him, and evidence for our consideration, some believe, some do not. Because it is based upon Faith.

Faith is simply a position that states, "There is enough evidence for me to consider the possibility that it is real." Unbelief is a position that states" I have not seen enough evidence for me to consider the possibility to be real, that a benevolent higher power exists.

So, it really comes down to two things, the fact we do not have the same experiences, educations, ambitions, exposures to situations that lead to conclusions not shared by all, and really a whole bunch of other considerations of things that make us different.

Belief is usually a result of evidence assessed by people, discussed for clarity, and consensus reached as to veracity, based upon our own personality and experience.

Doesn't make it true. Doesn't make it false. Makes us different. No "Smug," no "Superior," no looking down the nose at one who doesn't say it like I say it or believe it like I believe it. Just an alternate approach and assessment of evidence.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

Yes, you may!

I was raised a Catholic, and studied my way out of it. In 8th grade, I was kicked out of Catechism class for asking questions that disturbed the nun because she didn't know the answer.

I got special permission from the Bishop of Seattle, to return to Catechism class, with the understanding I would ask no more questions of the nun, but would go to the Bishop.

That worked fine until He couldn't answer my questions. It was about the Spanish Inquisition, and I asked it just after World War II, because the nun was telling us about the way Christians were being treated in China. I compared the two historical events.

When I moved out of the city (Renton Washington) into the country, I was given permission by the Bishop to read my bible at home. At the time, I was determined to become a priest. I was in love with the Messiah and everything I could learn about this "God business" until I discovered that with Catholicism, God was indeed a "business."

I progressed to the Church of Christ, preached for several years in local congregations, until I had to leave it when I discovered it was exactly what they denied so vehemently, just another denomination like all the others.

I now have bible study in my home, service on Sunday morning, and research the bible on a daily basis, learning new "stuff" all the time. It is never a dead letter issue with me.

Loki Loc: Georgia

I believe in God, I just don't believe in religion.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

Some see belief in God to be a religion. Perhaps your reference is to what is commonly called, "organized religion?"

robert66

Well written response. Unfortunately many believers in the public eye do not seem to adhere to what I view as the beneficial aspects of Christianity.

Loki Loc: Georgia

You might say that. You are aware, of course, that the Sabbath kept by Jesus and the disciples was the Jewish one, which begins at sundown Friday and goes through sundown Saturday? The Sunday Sabbath came into being by decree of the Nicene Council of 325 AD. You mentioned Bible studies in your home on Sundays. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia acknowledges the change.
You are also aware that "Easter" is only mentioned once in the Bible, in Acts 12:4 of the King James version, and if you check the times, you will see that it is not "Passover," as in many translations, but refers to the pagan festival dedicated to the Goddess of Spring. Ishtar, Astarte, Eaostre, Easter, all the same, dating from Babylonia circa 2000 BC.

As a matter of fact, there are two days on which the crucifixion could have occured. One was in 30 AD, and the other in 33 AD. These are the only 2 dates within the time that Caiaphas was High Priest.
Christmas is the Feast of the Birth of Mithra, with the names changed.
The two supposedly holiest days in Christianity are nothing more than pagan holidays incorporated into church dogma by [mostly] the Catholic Church.
While I am not familiar enough with other religions to point out their discrepancies, I am sure they abound. Every religion in history, sooner or later, is co-opted by those seeking power and/or riches. It's a good thing God has a sense of humor.
A First Century Christian would think a modern church service to be some sort of pagan ritual, and would not be far off the mark.

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

I am not aware of anywhere a christian gets their own planet, virgins, flying around, killing others, or suicide. These statements clarify you have absolutely no understanding of the bible, or christians. Perhaps first grasp an understanding of the bible (reading), know (not guess) what it means to be a christian. Then and only then can you honestly debate what are, or are not truths.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

Partly true. Are you aware of the "Jubilee?" It is a Sabbath of Sabbaths, equaling 49 days, The fiftieth day is the "Feast of Jubilee." It is a day of sacrifice that comes around every 50th day, following a Sabbath of Sabbaths +1.



There is no such thing as a "Sabath Sunday," That being a contradiction of terms, like saying "A seventh of first." Sabbath MEANS seventh, therefore cannot be applied to "first." (Except in the case of "Jubilee.")



I got it from Paul's letter to the church at Rome, Rom 16:3 "Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: 4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. 5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. 10 ".... Salute them which are of Aristobulus' household." [Rom 16:3-5.10]



Yup!



Very True! That is the result of "Scholars" trying to straighten out God's errors in publishing a book of scripture. They keep trying to tell us what God really meant to say.



Very astute!

The problem will always be Scholars who try to correct the prophets.

Example;
Scholars; "You know all men lost eternal life when Adam committed original sin."

Prophet: Moses; After Adam was chastised by God, he told Adam and Eve and Satan of consequences for their actions. "Loss of eternal life" was not mentioned in the context of that event.

Theo: God told them their punishment, then said "And now, lest you put forth your hand and take and eat of the tree of life, and live for ever" He put them out of the garden. Sure sounds like eternal life to me. So they still had access to it after the confrontation with God.

Plus the fact Adam did not commit the original sin. Eve did. She ate, and brought to Adam, and He did eat. Paul agrees with this assessment when he says "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."[1 Tim 2:12 ]

Many other problems are found in the teachings of denominations, and every one of them is caused by a "Scholar." That is precisely why God chose ignorant and unlearned men to entrust the gospel to. "Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus."[Acts 4:13]

robert66

I am not only referencing Christianity but other religions as well. I've seen many depictions of angels flying around in Christian publications. Some interpret occurences in end times as people rise to the heavens. Just as you specifically may have your own ideas as presented at your place of worship so do others at theirs. I've been to many different churches and nearly all have their own unique slant. Try Latter Day Saints. They believe the crazy stuff about planets and buried golden tablets. You may say they are wrong but why would they be wrong and you are right ? For that matter why be monotheistic when you could practice a religion with multiple gods ? Why are they wrong or is there a way they coexist within your beliefs ? Muslims believe much of the same stuff as Christians. Are they wrong or right ? Will they go to hell and you to heaven? Their God is the same as yours yet they get a different message. Every one of the religions think they are right so if God is so great why does he allow this ? Is it the free will excuse ?

Loki Loc: Georgia

I was not referencing the Bible studies in your home. You gave the impresssion that you were conducting Church services on Sunday. Perhaps more accurately, I got the impression. Apologies if I was mistaken in that.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

You have an eclectic view of religion, lumping the faithful right in with the unfaithful, possibly because they share the same building, and attend the same services of worship.

That is why God reserves judgment to Himself. He know we cannot discern the Spiritual aspect of Humanity, but are confined to what we see in the flesh.

Your observations are generic, not specific. and that is why so much ire is raised in the community of believers. They cannot abide being "lumped in with the unbelieving" examples of Christianity. They mostly have worked too hard and given up too much to appreciate the casual assessment made by others with whom they have nothing in common.



That is due to the scripture that says they will be "caught up in the air and be forever with the Lord."

How would YOU interpret it? Or would you not interpret it, but just "evaluate it" and call it unbelievable?



We share experiences in common, in that regard. I called it "search for truth." You never know what some believe till you give them an opportunity to express it.



Because the prophets covered those who would believe an angel that speaks contrary to what God has already said to Men. It is a lesson that all men who read the bible should have taken to heart. THIS is why it is wrong for Christians to say "We have the New Testament, not the Old; it was done away." Truth is, we are told to examine the scriptures" because without a working knowledge of the old testament, no one can know the new. And I am not speaking of memorizing scripture. Anyone can do that if they have the mind for it. (I do not) But to see the connections between the lessons of the old, to save us from those same errors in the new, shows how caring and careful God was on our behalf.

1 Kings 13:1 And, behold, there came a man of God out of Judah by the word of the LORD unto Bethel: and Jeroboam stood by the altar to burn incense.
2 And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.
3 And he gave a sign the same day, saying, This is the sign which the LORD hath spoken; Behold, the altar shall be rent, and the ashes that are upon it shall be poured out.
4 And it came to pass, when king Jeroboam heard the saying of the man of God, which had cried against the altar in Bethel, that he put forth his hand from the altar, saying, Lay hold on him. And his hand, which he put forth against him, dried up, so that he could not pull it in again to him.
5 The altar also was rent, and the ashes poured out from the altar, according to the sign which the man of God had given by the word of the LORD.
6 And the king answered and said unto the man of God, Intreat now the face of the LORD thy God, and pray for me, that my hand may be restored me again. And the man of God besought the LORD, and the king's hand was restored him again, and became as it was before.
7 And the king said unto the man of God, Come home with me, and refresh thyself, and I will give thee a reward.
8 And the man of God said unto the king, If thou wilt give me half thine house, I will not go in with thee, neither will I eat bread nor drink water in this place:
9 For so was it charged me by the word of the LORD, saying, Eat no bread, nor drink water, nor turn again by the same way that thou camest.
10 So he went another way, and returned not by the way that he came to Bethel.
11 Now there dwelt an old prophet in Bethel; and his sons came and told him all the works that the man of God had done that day in Bethel: the words which he had spoken unto the king, them they told also to their father.
12 And their father said unto them, What way went he? For his sons had seen what way the man of God went, which came from Judah.
13 And he said unto his sons, Saddle me the ass. So they saddled him the ass: and he rode thereon,
14 And went after the man of God, and found him sitting under an oak: and he said unto him, Art thou the man of God that camest from Judah? And he said, I am.
15 Then he said unto him, Come home with me, and eat bread.
16 And he said, I may not return with thee, nor go in with thee: neither will I eat bread nor drink water with thee in this place:
17 For it was said to me by the word of the LORD, Thou shalt eat no bread nor drink water there, nor turn again to go by the way that thou camest.
18 He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the LORD, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him.
19 So he went back with him, and did eat bread in his house, and drank water.
20 And it came to pass, as they sat at the table, that the word of the LORD came unto the prophet that brought him back:
21 And he cried unto the man of God that came from Judah, saying, Thus saith the LORD, Forasmuch as thou hast disobeyed the mouth of the LORD, and hast not kept the commandment which the LORD thy God commanded thee,
22 But camest back, and hast eaten bread and drunk water in the place, of the which the LORD did say to thee, Eat no bread, and drink no water; thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers.
23 And it came to pass, after he had eaten bread, and after he had drunk, that he saddled for him the ass, to wit, for the prophet whom he had brought back.
24 And when he was gone, a lion met him by the way, and slew him: and his carcase was cast in the way, and the ass stood by it, the lion also stood by the carcase.
25 And, behold, men passed by, and saw the carcase cast in the way, and the lion standing by the carcase: and they came and told it in the city where the old prophet dwelt.
26 And when the prophet that brought him back from the way heard thereof, he said, It is the man of God, who was disobedient unto the word of the LORD: therefore the LORD hath delivered him unto the lion, which hath torn him, and slain him, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake unto him.
27 And he spake to his sons, saying, Saddle me the ass. And they saddled him.
28 And he went and found his carcase cast in the way, and the ass and the lion standing by the carcase: the lion had not eaten the carcase, nor torn the ass.
29 And the prophet took up the carcase of the man of God, and laid it upon the ass, and brought it back: and the old prophet came to the city, to mourn and to bury him.
30 And he laid his carcase in his own grave; and they mourned over him, saying, Alas, my brother!
31 And it came to pass, after he had buried him, that he spake to his sons, saying, When I am dead, then bury me in the sepulchre wherein the man of God is buried; lay my bones beside his bones:
32 For the saying which he cried by the word of the LORD against the altar in Bethel, and against all the houses of the high places which are in the cities of Samaria, shall surely come to pass."[I Kings 13:1-32]

THOUGH WE OR AN ANGEL
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. 11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man."[Gal 1:8-11]



Because those "Scholars" I mentioned earlier, ignore the rules of grammar to promote a doctrine made up out of words not found in scripture, like "Theos ho huios" (God the son) and "Trinity" and developed creeds and doctrines, like "Athanasian Creed" and Trinity Doctrine.

Example:
Scholars: Trinity Doctrine says God is three persons in one being. Then they say "scripture does not define "being." So they feel authorized to define it by doctrine.

Theo:

Gen 17:1
"And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, εγω ειμι ο Θεος walk before me, and be thou perfect." [εγω ειμι ο Θεος = egw eimi o` qeo,j] (I AM THE GOD)

I = εγω

AM = ειμι

THE = ο

GOD = Θεος

εγω (egw) = first-person-singular pronoun = "I"
ειμι (eimi) = first-person-singular present active verb = "AM"
ο (o') = singular definite article = "The"
Θεος (Theos) = Nominative masculine singular noun = "God"

"εγω" leaves no room for 'We." "Egw" allows no room for "US." "Egw" is a reference to a first-person-singular "I."
"ειμι" leaves no room for "Are," but is a reference to "AM."
"ο" leaves no room for "some" but is a reference to "The" one and only. It is a singular definite article.
"Θεος" leaves no room for "Theoi;" You cannot stuff "plural persons" into a singular-person reference.

God introduced Himself to Abraham as a 1st-person-singular God. That takes care of the doctrine that he is a plurality of persons, because "person singular" tells us how many persons are being considered;i.e.,one. That is the meaning of "singular" person.

Exo 3:13-14
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, (1)Egw Eimi 'O wn: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel,(2) 'O wn hath sent me unto you.(1)(pronounced ego hymi ho hone)(2)(pronounced ho hone)

ων "egw" = first-person-singular pronoun = "I"
ειμι "eimi" = first-person-singular present active verb = "am"
ο "'o" = singular definite article = "the"
ων"wn" = Singular participle = "Being"

ων "Egw" leaves no room for 'We."
ων "Egw" allows no room for "US."
ων "Egw" is a reference to a first-person-singular "I."

ειμι "Eimi" leaves no room for "Are," but is a reference to "AM."

ο "Ho" leaves no room for "some" but is a reference to "The" one and only. It is a singular definite article.

ων "Wn" leaves no room for beings, it is a reference to "The Being." It is singular as to number of persons considered.

"Singular" participle means there is only one person in "The Being."

If in fact the new testament "reveals" that God is triune, then we will never expect to see the same repetition in the New testament as was seen in Gen 17:1; Exo 3:13-14; and Deut 4:35. so, let's take a little walk through the scriptures and see what we shall see -

O o o h h h! This looks familiar - Let's see if it matches Old Testament grammar!!!
εγω ειμι ο Θεος [Gen 17:1]
εγω ειμι ο Θεος [Mat 22:32]

εγω ειμι ο Θεος I am the God [Mat 22:32]

εγω (egw) = first-person-singular pronoun = "I"
ειμι (eimi) = first-person-singular present active verb = "AM"
ο (o') = singular definite article = "The"
Θεος (Theos) = Nominative masculine singular noun = "God"

So let's see if God repeats this grammar anywhere else in the New Testament

Genesis 35:11 And God said unto him, εγω ο Θεος (I am God)

Then, we examine the New Testament for similarity of "cult doctrine"

εγω ο Θεος [Gen 35:11]
εγω ο Θεος [Mark 12:26]
εγω ο Θεος [Acts 7:32]

Why did God say in Mat 22:32 εγω ειμι ο Θεος I am the God

εγω (egw) = first-person-singular pronoun = "I"
ειμι (eimi) = first-person-singular present active verb = "AM"
ο (o') = singular definite article = "The"
Θεος (Theos) = Nominative masculine singular noun = "God"

As For "Father, son, Holy Spirit" comprising triune Godhead - The reality is, God revealed that the Father sends HIS Spirit to accomplish things, or to encourage people.

[God the Father put "HIS HOLY SPIRIT" within Moses]
"Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is He that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is He that put His holy Spirit within him?" 12 That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?13 That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble? 14 As a beast goeth down into the valley, The Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name. 15 Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained? 16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: Thou, JEHOVAH, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting."[Isa 63:11-16]

Let's examine a little further and see if this is a third-person-of-a-trinity Holy Spirit - or if we have scripture that tells us God gave us HIS Holy Spirit.

1 Thes 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his Holy Spirit.

1 John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because He hath given us of His Spirit.

There is no verse that teaches Jesus is God and there is no verse that teaches the Holy spirit is a third-person-of-a-trinity "God The Holy spirit."



Utilizing similar rhetoric is not the same as believing "much of the same stuff." Christians and Hebrews worship Jehovah God, the God of ancient Hebrew nation. Muslims worship the moon; as portrayed in their crescent and moon atop every mosque worldwide. They call it "Allah" which while the word is found in the Hebrew old testament, it is not a reference to the God of Islam.



Assigning people who do not say it like I say it and think it like I think it, is not mine to do. I will leave all jugment to God. If the judgment were to be left in my hands, 1st), I am disqualified by reason of ignorance; Because I cannot read hearts, I can only read results, sometimes not under the control of the subject under consideration; 2nd I am disqualified by reason of self-preservation; That would tend to allow me to be my own standard, which is grossly unfair to all who think differently than do I; and 3rd I am disqualified because I am not God; and not necessarily in that order.



(Covered above)



No. It is not the free will excuse. It is the free will fact. The Apostles preached the gospel to the whole world of their day. Missionaries did pretty much the same in today's societies worldwide. And everyone is God's to judge, not Man's.