PaulPisces Loc: San Francisco

Why are you pulling Hobby Lobby into the thread? They are an incorporated for-profit business, not a church.

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

The church is not lobbying, rather speaking the word of God relative to current events

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

If you read her thread that I responded to you wouldn't be asking

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

Hobby Lobby is truly hypocritical. They are invested in the very companies who make the "abortion" pill. The have no problem with prescription sex enhancers for men.

I haven't known a single person who have worked there more than a few weeks at most due to the harassing nature of how they treat their employees. Hobby lobby gets none of mine or my families business. AND, they are not a church.

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

Ignorance of this top blows my mind. They are a christian family owned business, that has the right to operate on there terms, not the government's or you're terms. They are not against the other 16 forms of birth control. ....get that there ok with the other sixteen (16) forms of birth control, just the ones that kill or abort the baby. Last, I hope you tell all your friends and family not to shop at Hobby Lobby, because if they are anything like you, they don't need the headache, or business.

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT MAN, YOUR REPEATING LIES, maybe you don't know that you are, but then many liberals intentionally do pass on lies.

Hobby Lobby Owners Can Have a 401(k) and First Amendment Rights



There’s been an absurd story from Mother Jonesmaking the rounds this week.  Authored byMolly Redden (who has never signed the front of a paycheck, but does “spend too much time cooking and watching television,” according to her bio) and echoed here on Forbes.com by Rick Ungar, the argument is that Hobby Lobby can’t have religious convictions and a regular 401(k) plan for their employees at the same time.

Hobby Lobby (which is a closely held corporation with a few family owners) is suing the Obama Administration over Obamacare’s requirement that Hobby Lobby pay directly for drugs which can and do lead to early pregnancy abortions.  Being a material and proximate cooperator in such an action violates the business owners’ deeply-held religious views protected by the First Amendment to the Constitution.

Apparently, this also means that Hobby Lobby can’t have a 401(k) plan for their employees.  Why?  Well, according to Redden and Ungar, the Hobby Lobby owners are religious kook hypocrites.  The company 401(k) plan has investments which themselves invest in companies that make the abortion drugs.

This is a ridiculous argument for several reasons, all of which would be obvious to Redden and Ungar if they had ever run a business in their lives:

English: Hobby Lobby store in Stow, Ohio (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

401(k) plans are directed and invested by employees, not by employers.  It’s the Hobby Lobby employees that would be disenfranchised by the twisted logic employed by Redden and Ungar here.  They are the ones–not their bosses–who choose which mutual funds to invest in.  This is true both of the employee’s elective deferral and the employer’s match.

The menu of choices is primarily provided not by the Hobby Lobby employers, but by the 401(k) plan administrator, who helps select a wide menu of mutual fund (and, increasingly, exchange traded fund) choices so that the fiduciary obligations of the plan are met.

401(k) plans don’t invest in company stock–they invest in mutual funds.  A mutual fund, to state the obvious, is an investment company which invests assets in actual stocks.  When you buy a share of a mutual fund, you are buying a very small indirect ownership of hundreds or even thousands of stocks.  The most common 401(k) plan mutual funds are index funds, which invest the fund shareholder in the entire stock market (or close to it) in one fell swoop.

401(k) plans have a limited number of choices, and that’s a good thing.  Redden in particular seems to think that you can invest your 401(k) dollars (actually, that your employer can invest your 401(k) dollars) in any mutual fund at all, including socially conscious ones.  That’s not accurate.  Plan administrators contract with select mutual fund companies to provide basic investment products diversified by sector, asset class, duration, risk, etc.  This is the primary goal of diversification of fund choices, not socially conscious investing.  Besides, it’s the employees who call the shots.  They may not share the same values as the Hobby Lobby owners, and might have a very different idea of what a “socially responsible” fund would invest in.

Furthermore, you don’t want to provide dozens to hundreds of investment choices for employees.  All the research I’ve ever seen on this has said that if you give employees too many choices, they will fear making a bad one and never deploy their cash toward any investment at all.  Additionally, each new mutual fund offered within a plan drives up 401(k) plan fees.  Surely Redden and Ungar agree with the Obama Administration that 401(k) fees are too high and should come down, right?

What does Mother Jones’ or Mercury Public Affairs’ 401(k) plan look like?  Those are the employers of Redden and Ungar, respectively.  Surely those 401(k) plans invest in stocks of oil and gas companies, defense contractors, private equity firms, and other evil conservative power bastions.  Have Redden and/or Ungar done a forensic investigation of the mutual funds they are invested in?  Should I call them hypocrites for daring to invest in a 401(k) which invests in a mutual fund which invests in a multinational company which happens to own an oil company?  If not, consider that the Hobby Lobby employers have one more degree of separation even from Redden and Ungar.  Our two intrepid reporters affirmatively chose to invest in merchants of death when they picked out their 401(k) choices.  All Hobby Lobby is doing is providing the platform for employees to make those same choices themselves in partnership with plan administrators.

It’s an absurd argument, and one which isn’t that hard to dispute if you’re familiar with how 401(k) plans actually work.  But it’s not surprising to see such a weak argument advanced.  The secular Left is doing everything they can to drive people of faith from the public square’s marketplace.  The ridiculous idea that a religiously convicted employer can’t offer a reasonable 401(k) plan is really not that different from saying a religiously convicted photographer can be ordered by the government to shoot a gay wedding.  Religious minorities are under assault from secular bullies, and unfortunately Redden and Ungar are in their ranks.

 





nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

Dude, you didnt read the part about Hobby Lobby investing in the company that makes the abortion pill? And I agree, they can operate any way thry choose. Buy hypocrits they most definitely are.

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

All partially true but there are mutual funds designed for the faith-based investor. Either way, they are subject to those who won't shop there for what ever reason; this one, or just not being opened on Sunday, or, any number of reasons.

When you are that self-righteous, you'd better make sure you have ALL you ducks in a row, or folks will be boycott'in. Its called PR.

Artemis

Hobby Lobby, is not a church :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: It is for the public, once operating for the public there are laws one has to abide by, especially in considering people's rights and biases.

Artemis

What God is trying to say, has always been up for interpretation, which includes ongoing debates from religious scholars and holy teachers, besides you and I.

Explain to me how the quotes we are speaking of, are not negative.

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

Fully disagree, my company and your choice to shop anywhere. Don't like shop somewhere else.

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

That's a weak argument, being the bible is literal and fewer subjects are debated than your inference.

PaulPisces Loc: San Francisco

Where in the U.S. Constitution does it say our laws need to be vetted by the Bible?

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

It doesn't, just how our founding fathers set it up.

AuntiE Loc: 45th Least Free State

NO, it is not a church; however, it is a privately held company. Further, no one seems to care they offer full insurance, including birth control, to their employees. There are only two of twenty three separate medications that violate their beliefs.

By the way, I have read every legal brief on this case, from the original fiiling, through the SCOTUS decision. The media and every single other person fighting against Hobby Lobby lied like troopers. They are clueless morons.