nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

Look dude. I was raised bible, studied bible, church, church friends and life, commentaries, prayer (some answered), goodness, kindness, helping, lots of charity. Good stuff. But, that book called the bible, so full of stuff Id have to lie to claim to believe actually happened. It just dawned on me that it didnt actually happen. The magical stuff, that is. Some of the kistorical stuff, sure. But not the magic. The notion of virgin births and saviors, all recycled from older tales, just didnt make logical sense.

So, what can be done. I personally dont believe people actually, truthfully believe that stuff, despite their claims. Even yours. I even get the feeling that higher consciousness mihht expect us to be more decerning and truthful about things like what we believe.

So there!

jimahrens Loc: California

Sake reason if you give a person enough rope he will hang himself. yes it is I smell you.

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

Only a loving god would burn his children alive forever. I mean, come on!!

mwdegutis Loc: Illinois

You choose to go to hell, not God. And it's not "burning in hell." It's complete separation from God.

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

Sorry Charlie, no where in the Bible does it say that those condemned will "burn for eternity in hell." That is one of the greatest misinterpretations by those, like yourself and many Christians, who have only a superficial knowledge of the Word of God.

The "eternal fire" is a spiritual metaphor for the destruction of the soul. Sodom and Gomorrah is a good example. It is gone, destroyed, not a thing left, burned up completely. But it is not still burning today.

The wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal damnation.

But any conversation about the Bible with non-believers is pointless. You have your beliefs or non-beliefs and that is that. So be it.

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

Ok. What about gnashing of teeth?

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

No one is stopping you, Gnash away.

Hemlock Connoiseur

Genial souls: it is neither polite (from the standpoint of a non-believer) nor Christian to allow a discussion about what we can really KNOW nothing about to descend into a brawl of insult-trading. Worse, it is not productive. First, for the Christian: do you think insulting a guy and--assuming a role for which you are not qualified--to throw him into the Lake of Fire will really change his mind?

And non-believer dudes: you want your views to be respected, or at least taken seriously. I would suggest that mocking your target audience's beliefs is not efficacious.

I am a Christian. I must admit that there are a number of passages in the Bible that strain one's credulity, and sense of what we would like to believe. However, non-believer dudes, there are an overwhelming number of absurdities in the "scientific" account of the universe. So, you might say, "How do we choose?"

I recently saw a motion picture--The Life of Pi. I was deeply moved by it, as it offered an answer to your question (assuming, of course, that anyone even asked it). It is a little bit similar to Blaise Pascal's answer of "The Wager", if you are into Christian apologetics.

So, we have two stories that purport to explain the world. In one, man is an ape, a little more clever than the chimpanzee, but not nearly as strong. He will perish as though he had never existed when his little life ends. The other story is that man was created in the image and likeness of God, is a little lower than the angels. That God has offered him to become his son in his Son for everlasting life.

Which is the better story?

Sorry to have gotten carried off the original intent of this. One of my idiosyncrasies. But I would renew my suggestion that polite discourse is more effective than insults if you really want to reach the other fellow.

Betta

Absolutely right!

Betta

Psalm 14:1-7 KJV - The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God." Remember you said that when He asks you about it.

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

Strength is realtive to producing offspring.

BOHICA

Jesus Christ. The same yesterday, today and forever.

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

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Jack, I repent my sins, daily, in my prayer-times. (Yes, the word "times" is in the plural tense.) In those times, I ask for forgiveness, not only for my own sins, but also for those sins committed by others, such as you.

Thank you, too, for placing yourself before God and judging me in His name. I don't know how I could've survived without your judgment of my Christianity. I suppose I needed a Pharisee like you to put me back on the righteous path.

In response to your Biblical selection, allow me the following, taken from Matthew 11:16-24: (KJV)
Matthew 11:19: "Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children."

To give you the whole picture in Matthew 11:16-24, Christ reflects on the scribes and Pharisees, who had a proud conceit of themselves. He likens their behavior to childrens' play, and who, display temper-tantrums without reason, quarrel with all of their "playmates" in spite of the attempts of their fellow children to try to reason with them.

The petty arguments of such "worldly men" are often very trifling and are usually joined with intense malice toward one another; something that they often-times demonstrate an un-repressable urge to unleash against every one, irrespective of the victim's character. In this passage, it was the Christ, who was undefiled and separate from sinners, who is represented in this as in cahoots with the "sinners" and poisoned by them. This shows that even being the most innocent of men will not always be a defense against false testimony and character assassination, let alone a fellow sinner.

Christ knew that the hearts of the Jews were more bitter and hardened against His miracles and doctrines, than even the people of Tyre and Sidon would have been; therefore the Jews' condemnation would be the greater. We need to remember that the Lord exercises His almighty power, yet He punishes none more than they deserve, and, at the same time, never withholds the knowledge of the truth from those who long after it.

Lets break the verse down, so you might have a better understanding of how it demonstrates how quickly the most guilty of us like to point out the sins of others, "... the Son of Man came eating and drinking,...." meaning Jesus, who ate and drank as folks usually do, lived in the common way of life, was free and sociable, went to feasts, entertainments, and weddings, when He was invited; and was affable, courteous, and friendly in His interaction to all; and they say, "behold a man gluttonous ...," a voracious man, an epicurean, one that indulges his appetite to a very great degree, and in a scandalous manner. In other words, a wine-o, a common drunk, one that drinks to excess; whom the Rabbis call, who is one that drinks up his cup in one swallow; one that is given to wine, and likes it!

He's accused of being, "... a friend of 'publicans'" (Oh, where I could go with that word!) and other such SINNERS (my emphasis); such as are openly and notoriously wicked; and LOVES their company, for the sake of 'knocking back a few' with them; and seemingly ENCOURAGES them in their partying and drunkenness! now, those "scroll-bangers" think they have Him cornered and will get Him hung in short order.

Finally, we read, "But wisdom is justified of her children." God's wisdom is manifested in the calling of His followers to be of a different character and thinking, whereby some are used, but others are left out because of their feelings of self-importance. Or by the Gospel, in which there is such a display of divine wisdom, from which it is known that He is innocent of the charge of licentiousness, by the agreeable lives and conversations He had with the children of God. Or by Christ himself, who is the wisdom of God; and in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge; through which, however one may be slandered by ignorant and malicious men, yet they will be acquitted from all such charges as were insinuated, by all the true sons of wisdom. Or by those who are made wise toward salvation. We must learn from this, that no sort of preacher and/or preaching will please some men; that the best of Gospel ministers may be reproached as libertines, or madmen; and that they will be sooner, or later, justified and cleared from all similar attacks to their character.

Ricktloml

Where is the medical evidence that homosexuals are "born that way"?

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

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I believe that Paul’s "rant" in 1 Corinthians 5 has been taken out of context and thrown around much too freely. This is partly because it is difficult for us to understand the antiquated writing style of some of the translations of the Bible. When I read it in the ASV, I took the same message from this passage as I did when I read it in the Message translation, particularly verses 9-13.

“Do not eat with sinners” has somehow been derived from a verse directed specifically to a church dealing with sexual immorality from one of its members. This particular member sees nothing wrong with his actions and even boasts about them. Paul has already written in a previous letter about how this behavior is unacceptable. Now he is furious that the behavior has continued and is still overlooked."

I believe Paul is saying (paraphrasing) that this person sees nothing wrong with his actions and also sees nothing wrong with boasting about it. This is not healthy behavior for the body of the church. If he does not change his ways, you do not need to be associated with such behavior, for then what will everyone else think of you as well? Everyone else will think you agree and tolerate such behavior. This also applies to anyone in your church who is acting similarly, purposefully sinning, bragging about it and not seeing that they are wrong in doing so.

This is simply my view. I feel like Paul’s point in 1 Corinthians 5, is toward how to handle a situation in the church when a person clearly, blatantly commits a sin and then said person still thinks they are okay doing it and that their actions are no biggie; so they brag all about it.In 1Corinthians, Paul, himself, mentions his words do not apply to those OUTSIDE of the church in question. If we did not associate with them, we would have to leave the Earth in search of people to associate with.

Additionally, elsewhere we read of Jesus, Himself, eating with sinners, and of the Pharisees calling Him out about it (Luke 15, Mark 2:15-17), and then about Him defending his actions “it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick” (Mark 2:17). Add to that, Paul, in 1 Corinthians 5, saying his words do not apply to people outside the church. Thusly, we should feel confident that it's fine if we follow Jesus’ lead and eat with sinners of all, stripes in the literal form, and, in the metaphorical form, by simply associating with them, paying attention to them, and showing them they are loved. Hats how we bring souls to Christ; NOT by "bible-banging" them over the head and damning their souls to hell. That's not what Jesus did or would have us do! (WWJD?)

Really, if 1 Corinthians 5 was speaking of not eating with sinners in general (which Paul clearly states is not the issue), why would this scripture directly contradict something that came straight from BOTH Jesus’ preaching and actions?

I think we all know that eating with sinners happens all the time. I mean, if I didn’t eat with sinners, I would starve to death. I’m a sinner, too, and I'd hate to eat alone all the time.