jetson

Catholics, believe Mary is divine, Mary has already ascended to heaven Call Mary the Queen of heaven, Jer. 44:25 and Jer. 7:18 say there is no Queen in heaven. They call priest, Father, forbidden by God Bow down to her, God for bids this. They sacrifice Jesus over and over at every Mass calling it the Eucharist. Bible states Christ died once for sin. God has no popes. Dream up holy water. They pray to the dead etc. RCC is a cult.

Ranger7374 Loc: Arizona, 40 miles from the border in the DMZ

Well we see how much you believe in God, for behold, "what you do to the least of my followers you do to Me"

The Roman Catholic Church is the most persecuted, and most abused Church in all of Christianity. So continue with the persecution. Why not what is the rule if you can't beat em join them. Go ahead.

That is the most discriminatory statement, and you neither red nor understand either the Bible nor do have you red nor understood the Baltimore Catechism. Keep attacking the Catholics.

And one day after we all die, when the Catholics are lifted up above all of humanity, for they have served their fellow Christians as best they could and became the lowest of all Christianity, only then will you understand. That is ashame.

rumitoid

If the End Days are getting closer, which I doubt, Targeting Islam is not unlike the Jews targeting the Samaritans, who Jesus used as exemplary.

Ranger7374 Loc: Arizona, 40 miles from the border in the DMZ

Jesus Christ said, "Do this in memory of Me", If you want biblical quotes go to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, For Christ commanded the Eucharist. But because a human being does what Christ commands you call it a Cult. There is more but this is the big one! This I will defend.

Ranger7374 Loc: Arizona, 40 miles from the border in the DMZ

We do not pray to the dead, we pray for the dead. The living may intercede for the dead. The Biblical reference was already stated.

Rainrider Loc: Lovington NM

My faith is IN HaShem and the fact that Yeshua gave His life freely for all man kind.
I look at things and when I test them if they do not stand up to that test, they are rejected. The test any teacjhing must pass is almost as old as time. That test is this, "Can they stand up to the Torah?"
If any teaching be it from the RCC, Mormon, 7th day Adventist, Baptist, and yes even the teaching of my Rabbi's, do not stand up to this test, they are rejected.
You wish to show me that what you say is true? Lets do this. We will work with only 9 books of the Bible. The First 5 of the Old testament, and the first 4 of the New. It is in these 9 books that we find every thing that is needed, and every thing we should and should not do.
You wish me to back off teh RCC, and stop pointing out the things you say that are wrong. Fine.
Show me any passage, (in the 9 books I am willing to work with to show that I do know what I am talking about), just one passage that changes the Laws of HaShem. Here are the things I want you to back up in them.
1 When diud it become ok to bow down to idols?
2 When did the TRUE Sabbath change from the 7th day of the week to the 1st?
3 Where does it tell us that Marry should be worshiped, or even has the pwoer to do any thing for us?
4 When did praying to the dead become any good at all?
5 Who is it that is that holds the ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER?
6 How do we show our love of and faith in HaShem?
7 What is the sign that we are HaShems people?
8 When did Passover change it's date to be observed?
9 When was Yeshua placed on the cross?
10 When was Yeshua born?

You wish to taken seriously? Lets put all your teaching to the true test. The test that we are told time and time again to put all teachings to. Can you do this?

You see I tell you the same thing. The Books of the Bible are as I say they are and that's the bottom line. True you didn't say it that way, yet that is what came across. I will say this, and can back it with the 9 books I am willing to work with. The Torah, (meaning the first 5 books of the Bible) are the foundation of all other Books in the Bible. If what one teaches can not be backed with them, then most likely they are faults teachings.
As I said, I can back all my teachings with them. Even if you ask me to teach them from just the Torah, or the 4 Gospels.
It is not me that condemns your teaching, it is the Torah.

Ranger7374 Loc: Arizona, 40 miles from the border in the DMZ

No its you! Did you not read the Baltimore Catechism? that I provided? For one of the questions is about the idols, no we do not bow down to idols, the idol reminds us of God. It is a symbol like the Star of David is a symbol. Praying to saints is praying to the friends of God, and asking them for intercession. Same with Mary. Praying for the dead, allows those who have died under venial sin, helps them get into heaven? Do you people not have compassion? The only way to the Father is through Jesus Christ, we all know this, yet you continue to ignore what has already been posted. Through Mary, through her Son we get to the Father for it is only through Christ. Showing Love for God and Jesus is by keeping His Commandments and doing as was stated in the Baltimore Catechism performing the corporal works of mercy and other works as was related in the Sermon on the Mount. As far as when were the dates changed for the birth of Christ, and the death of Christ, is immaterial for the fact the deed was done.

Are we so wrapped in tradition that we fail to understand the true Love of God, that we have to bash the doctrines of our fellow Brothers and Sisters in Christ? Is this not a violation of not only God, but also the precept Paul told the Christians? if you want chapter and verse it has already been posted by me.

Jesus was born in the Spring, and I believe he died in the Spring, I'm not too sure of exact dates, I have been halted in my research but I do believe it was in the spring. For both incidences.

To attack the Church is to attack God. It is one thing not to believe in the Church which is sad, and shouldn't be and it is because of the ignorance of both the church and the fallen away, that have caused this situation to occur and it is sad. However, to turn around and attack someone's faith, is not cool nor is it justified by God.

I am not trying to cause division, but will defend the Church as a Catholic, but as a scholar and student of Christ and God, I have to say this is a form of persecution committed by Christians who should be united in Faith. For it is the destruction of the soul, Satan wants, he cares not about the argument of doctrine. Therefore as a Catholic, who is a bit liberal from my contemporaries yet still more conservative than the average American today, I seek the unity of All Christians and have always sought this. In addition at every Mass we pray for the Unity, its arguments like these that cause the division and separation.

Have I once called any doctrine you follow wrong? Did I once use a book of faith to disrupt your faith? If I had show me? However if I haven't why do you attack me?

Rainrider Loc: Lovington NM

It is not an attack. I simply wish for you to do one simple thing. Prove what you believe using the one thing that is the test of all things.

Ranger7374 Loc: Arizona, 40 miles from the border in the DMZ

I have proved it over and over again. Now I challenge the test. The test is human and un warranted for the faith holds up to the test if the test is objective since the test is not objective therefore the test is invalid. My beliefs have held up through the test of time From St. Peter to present.

It is like this, America is generally a great country. But there are parts of America that need improvement. Therefore do we say, "America is a failed and evil country" due to the parts that need improvement? No we don't.

The Roman Catholic Church dates back to the time of Christ and some in the Church, these bad apples and bad popes, if you will, has caused the Church to fall into sin. This is well known and the church has admitted its sins and has taken steps to change. For the Church is made up of the fallible attempting to be infallible, which is honorable. However, when a test is designed with an unfair administrator with unfair rules the test is therefore false and unjust.

Therefore the same could be said about the test of the Roman Catholic Church on the authenticity of all items of iniquity. Because of the folly of man I too challenged those tests. For a good portion of them destroyed the subject or item inquestion and therefore the knowledge was too destroyed therefore the test was evil.

Here lets use this test.

1.) If it is done with true faith, love, hope in Jesus and God it will stand through the test of time.

2.) If it is done for Christ, it will be done out of faith in Jesus Christ, hope in Jesus Christ, and pure love or charity in Christ, for if it does not increase faith, hope, or love, it is not from Christ.

3.) If two or more witnesses verify the subject had occurred, then the subject has occured.

4.) If it promotes the greater good as well as the individual good, of the people involved, it is of Christ and God, and the obvious purpose is from the Word of God?

Why not use this test? The test of a child? For if we must become like Children to enter into the kingdom of heaven, why not use the test of a child. That is these four simple innocent questions.

Why must it be as complex as we Adults have made it? Yes I was trying to tackle a difficult mystery until my religion was attacked. And now we have gone through pages upon pages of the attack and the defense. Ummm why? If you believe in Christ and I believe in Christ, then why are we quarreling and not exploring the mysteries of Christ? Just because the Eye is not the mouth, does that make the Eye less important than the mouth? Just because the Hand is different from the foot does that make the foot lower in statue than the hand? No. For all memebers of the body are equal, as I have made you. Equal to me. For no one is above another in Christianity. And the Pope, which all outsiders see, is the most abused of the servants of Christ. He is the most tempted and the lowliest of servants when the pope is truely doing his job. However, the pope is and will always be a man! For a man is subject to temptation and sin, and can be wrong. This is where faith comes in. For with faith he maybe wrong less and less. But without faith he will be wrong more and more. That is a fact. But whether or not the leader of my Church is Pope Francis or Billy Graham or any other human being on the face of the Planet, the bottom line is this, when we die it is not going to be Pope Francis or Billy Graham that faces Jesus, but it will be just us and Jesus. And since we are responsible for our own sins, in the presence of Jesus we will either confess or deny our sins. Either way we will be held responsible for our works.

Now, I am not going to completely destroy your test for your test has its place. However, do not be like the Pharisees and Sadducees in the manner where the letter of the test is more important than the Love that brought the test into existence.

For didn't Jesus say that he "was the Lord of the Sabbath", and if he was the Lord of the Sabbath, would that also mean He was the Lord of the Law of Moses? And being the Lord of the Law of Moses, He need not break the Law to fulfill the Law, but He was accused of breaking the same law, by those who broke the law to accuse and punish Him. So in the end who won?

Well if you say Jesus, well that is partially correct. For Jesus will always win, that's a given like 0 times any number is still 0. However, Man also won, for did not Christ come to earth for the sinner, for the righteous was already saved? So therefore, if the righteous was saved, and Christ saved the unrighteous or the sinner, then when Christ died and rose from the dead, all of humanity won eternal life in heaven.

But like St. Paul says it is through works that we inherit eternal life in Christ. For St. Paul says Faith without works is dead or a more modern way of putting it, faith without works is no faith at all. Faith exists only in works, for faith when it is all boiled down is nothing but an idea, until that faith is practiced in works. For the fruits of the Holy Spirit will come from the Faith practiced in works. How do you confine God? How can God be confined to a test. I thought the bible said, "It is written do not put the Lord your God to the test?", doesn't that statement alone destroy the test? For the test is invalid for it tests the Word of God, putting the Word of God to the test? For isn't the canonized books of the Bible the inspired Word of God? And if it is the inspired word of God and it was subjected to a "test" is not the test invalid if the test is used to determine what the Word of God is or isn't? Does this not test God, which the Bible clearly says not to do?

However, if the test was one of love, as those four simple childlike questions I posed forth, is that not the words of a child? Does not God listen to the voice of a child, over the complexity of the tests of man?

For if the RCC stood for over two thousand years and using the words of Thomas Jefferson, "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.", and would it not make sense that the quarrels of Non Catholics against Catholics, charge Catholics of a presupposed sin, that is not occurring? So what right does anyone today, for what purpose, would it bring to change a long established doctrine, for light and transient causes?

For before the argument of Mary, did she come out of the sky and frighten you to attack her? No, of course not. Did Mary kill your friends or family, did she hurt you in any way? No, then why is there so much hate against her. Just because she gave birth to Jesus, and Jesus honored her, and the followers of Jesus prayed to her to intercede with Jesus, does not give man the right to destroy a centuries old, practice. Name one Pagan practice that still survives today, number one, and name the pagan practice that establishes peace to all, whether they are of the pagan practice or not. And I just asked for one, and in all my research of the ancients there isn't any. Some come close but don't fit the build.

What is bad here and very bad is if you are allowed to attack the Church with your test that I find is unjust, for it lacks the Love of the Word of God in it, then by the same turn, by debunking the Roman Church you just destroyed the foundation of the book that you are defending. Both yours and my argument both fall apart and we have no religion, nor can we be called Christians, for Christianity is about Love and is about building in the name of and for God. It is about unity and free people coming together for a common cause and that cause is Christ.

I told you and I asked three times to end the discussion on Mary. However, this was not done. Well here you have it. The test is false. Plain and simple. For a long established living faith in Jesus Christ, trumps all tests.

Ranger7374 Loc: Arizona, 40 miles from the border in the DMZ

Now I will drop for a moment all arguments on the Roman Catholic Church and teachings. Now I will direct you the most studied object in all the world. And it is Christian. Called the Shroud of Turin.

I have verses of scripture in this post and I have conclusive scientific evidence, and I wonder what you all think so here goes:

This is according to the website of www.shroud.com, but I will also show it in this video if you need a visual for I have a few videos for your knowledge and entertainment which will shed light on the one called, Jesus of Nazareth. One of the videos is here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BxmbIGQBX4 and another is here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVVNh-mhsKY and finally here,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta6rWlAjNi0" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta6rWlAjNi0 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAhuBGcAzB8

In doing so, I will back some of this evidence, that science found, which is backed up by scripture to show that not only is the Shroud Authentic and it is a pictorial document, that complements the bible. Also what is shown on the Shroud is the marks of Sin. Also the image was created by a brilliant light, that was produced with a high frequency, low band width light that occurred in less than 40 nanoseconds. Boy do I love science especially when it is backed up by the bible. I love this.

Okay here we go. Now for those who know me, I am quite thorough, when I present evidence like this, which in my opinion is quite extensive and quite detailed to conclude that the man of the Shroud of Turin and the man of Sacred Sudarium Of Our Lord Jesus, housed in Spain, are from the same man, known as Jesus Christ or Jesus of Nazareth.

So please go here to the Gospel according to John, and I will also quote the passage here: It is John 19:28-42 for the rest of the chapter go to https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?version=NKJV&search=John%2019 (which is the King James Version, however on this website you can choose from many different translations which relate relatively the same style, I chose the King James version for it is the most accepted translation and to eliminate confusion.)

For the faithful let me lead you to John, the only eyewitness to the burial of Jesus Christ.



The wounds on the Shroud are consistant with the following scriptures:

1 Cor 15:51-52----"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

For the Shroud of Turin proves this point and is evidence of how we will enter into eternal life. For the Resurrection of Jesus Christ was the first fruits of the Resurrection.

Therefore by example, the Shroud of Turin is witness to how the resurrection will be done. For science proved through the study of the shroud, at www.shroud.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http:www.shroud.com that the scientific conclusion is that the image was formed not of a light source of this world. For the light source that formed this image is of short wave length and high frequency beyond Gamma rays. We do not know of a light source other than God that fits this description.

For according to the same science the light source is a high frequency short band width that produces an image that is 1 or 2 microns in depth.

Therefore if it was a forgery or a painting it is not possible. For under ultraviolet light the image does not appear, nor is the image on the back of the cloth, which debunks that the body passed through the cloth. According to one physicist, the image was produced when time and gravity were at zero. This is impossible for the ancients. The image has properties of distance and properties of 3d and properties of photographic negative properties. That was unknown until 1898.

Other scipture refrences include:

"This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all." 1 John 1:5. Confirmed on the Shroud of Turin.

When one goes to the store and purchases items a recipt is given to the merchant. If we are the merchant then the Shroud of Turin and the Sacred Sudarium, serve as a recipt of the purchase, showing what was paid and how it was paid for.

Therefore, it compliments, 1 thessalonians 4:16

"Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s."---1 Corinthians 6:19-20

And again in Acts 20:28
"Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."

And again in Matthew 20:28
"just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

Thus, the Shroud of Turin is the proof of purchase of Christ for our sins.

Isaiah 53:1-12 is also confirmed,

"Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
And they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

Psalm 34:19-20

"Many are the afflictions of the righteous,
But the Lord delivers him out of them all.
He guards all his bones;
Not one of them is broken." Confirmed by the Shroud of Turin. For the man of the Shroud has no broken bones.

And again in numbers 9:12
"They shall leave none of it until morning, nor break one of its bones. According to all the ordinances of the Passover they shall keep it."

And again in Exodus 12:46
"In one house it shall be eaten; you shall not carry any of the flesh outside the house, nor shall you break one of its bones."

And again in Zechariah 12:10

" “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn."

and in Zechariah 14 the whole chapter which I will not post here. but you can view it at https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah+14&version=NKJV

Biblical reference of how the image was made is contained here, for Christ is the Light, therefore it is described here, in Genesis 1:3, "Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light."

Now I have provided both Biblical reference and Scientific Evidence proving the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin, if you still doubt then I refer you to the Shroud of Turin website.

Now the question was asked by you Peter, "Does it matter if it is the burial Cloth of Christ?" the answer to your question is yes for many reasons.

1. The Shroud of Turin and the Napkin that covered the face, both testify to the ressurection.

2. It gives us the DNA of the perfect human Being. and the way he was meant to be created.

3. it makes all of the teachings of Christ legit, for this is the only article in all of history that is the biggest witness that we can see, touch, taste, feel. It satisfies science. Therefore, if they declare it to be authentic, and it contains Jesus of Nazareth and it is proven to be Him, then by default it proves the Bible to be true, and it proves the existence of God, for Jesus and the Father are one. So if the Shroud proves that the Bible is true, and the Bible calls Jesus, God, then between the bible and the Shroud, they bear witness to God. And much much more.

For not only does it confirm what the bible says and confirm God, but it also confirms the Resurrection and life after death, and it shows the perfect, and pure man, what his blood type, DNA, and chromosomes should be at the time of creation. It proves everything the Christians have believed since Christ made the cloth.

Because of this, many have tried for evil means to debunk the Shroud. Which is what the 1978 expedition attempted to do and could not. Rather they proved it to be what it is said to be. Only this time it was done by scientific means. For in the modern world we rely heavily upon science and neglect faith. This is called being worldly.

Now I have written the Faith portion of the findings I still encourage all of you to read the scientific study on that website and decide for yourselves.

Now before you let your prejudicism set in and automatically call this a fraud, examine the shroud for yourself. Keep in mind three questions, Who is the man of the Shroud, How did the Image get on the Shroud, and Is the Shroud Authentic?

The same scientific study, that I personally did on Evolution and its style that the evidence leads me to believe that Darwin unwittingly stumbled upon the remains of the Nephilim, is the same study I followed with the Shroud of Turin.

Through the research which is all detailed and documented on this website I invite believer and non believer to examine the Shroud for themselves. For in 1981, in Our Lady of Sorrows Roman Catholic Church, in South Orange, New Jersey, when I was just eight years old, the scientific team came to the church and in the basement of the Church, did a presentation of their findings after Mass.

I as an alter boy was invited to the presentation. And the following picture was placed upon the screen. This picture which you see here is a photographic negative of the Shroud. I have followed the research ever since. And the findings of the research are phenomenal and sparked my interest in Electrical theory and Quantum mechanics.

Now I invite all of you sceptics and believers alike to follow the evidence as is presented on the website. For Christ said, "I and the Father are one. If you see Me, you see the Father." Therefore 1800 years before the invention of a camera we have a picture of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

At eight years old I believed with my true heart, in true faith that this single most important artifact of iniquity is the true burial cloth of Christ which the blood stains and blood type and DNA match another artifact of Christ that currently is in Spain. Both we are told by the Church and the owners and history that they are of Christ. Now explore it for yourself. And if you follow the scientific methodology of the Shroud which are from some of the most brilliant of their perspective fields of study, and you conclude as I do, that the Shroud is Jesus Christ, that it is authentic, and that the Image could not be made by anyone else except by God, then here is the proof everyone has been waiting for. For God does exist and God is so much alive, and science through the Shroud is proving it. However, there is still a controversy. Like everything concerning God there is a controversy but the truth will last through the test of time.

I have some more evidence pointing toward the scientific proof of God. But I consider this the biggest one, and history of Science as we know it is also contained within this study. Here you will be able to see how the Shroud survived from Jerusalem to the kingdom of Edessa, to Constantinople, to France by the Knights Templar, to the current city of Turin Italy.

Now the history of the Shroud, which the shroud was mentioned in John, and I believe Matthew and Mark, and Luke, but I know for a fact it was mentioned in John. This is where the story begins. It is a beautiful story that is surrounded in mystery.

The history of the Science also has its mysterious points that changed science for ever. Please, if you are a skeptic, please read the evidence before you denounce this. For like my preceding statement from one of the original scientist of the 1978 expedition, "this is the single most studied in detail artifact ever" Therefore learn for yourselves.

If it wasn't for this study, I would have never been able to advance my knowledge of history, love, truth, law, and the physical sciences. I know more about the Shroud of Turin than any other artifact on the face of the planet. It is mysterious, intriguing and it is very for a lack of a better term cool and awesome. This could not have come about by chance, nor could it have been formed by an ancient artist.

Enjoy. This is one proof of where Science and Religion come together and if allowed to grow together will prove each other to be true and prove God therefore God Bless those who try to examine the Shroud of Turin. Welcome to the Love of God!

This is the negative from the picture. Also this is photographic evidence that Jesus Christ rose from the dead. And we will do the same during the great resurrection. This bears witness to the resurrection.

Darla Loc: Hobbs, New Mexico

Let me first of all say that I was taught from childhood there was but ONE God and that to Him alone I should turn to and put my faith in. I have read the Bible many times and have questioned many teachings even in my childhood that did NOT match up to THE HOLY WORD. I refused and still refuse to take anything at face value or to simply accept what I am told simply because someone in authority tells me it is so or because one has more experience or knowledge of a subject than I do. Trust me, even Rainrider, for whom I have great respect, will tell you that I have questioned his teachings from time to time. And, as with you, he told me to back it with book, chapter and verse from the Holy Word. There were occasions I found the backing I sought but more often than not I discovered it was something I learned from some church leader, pastor or what have you that had misquoted the Holy Word or twisted it out of context to fit their doctrine.

You are not the first person to condemn me as a lost soul for this reason. You stated that my faith in Yeshua was lacking because I refused to recognize Mary as anything other than a righteous woman who happened to be blessed by HaShem to give birth to the Savior, Messiah. I have great respect for Mary and all those who actually walked with and talked with Yeshua. They were blessed beyond anything we will ever see in our lifetime. I will show you that my faith is not lacking.

2Ti 3:15 “And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”

What holy scriptures was Paul referring to here? He did not have the “Catholic Bible”, Catechisms, or even the “True Letter of Jesus” to refer to as holy scripture. Those were added later by mandates of man. Yeshua, Himself condemned that action, In Matthew 15:3-9 Yeshua called such as create their own commandments, HYPOCRITES. “Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

Timothy was Hebrew from birth as was Paul. Paul was referring to the Torah (the first five books of the bible or the Laws of Moses) and the Tanahk (the writings which included all the rest of the Old Testament as we have in our Bible today.) Using these same scriptures that Paul and the other Apostles had at their disposal as well as the writings of those same Apostles, I will show that to worship and or pray to Mary or any other dead saint for intercession is in fact against HaShem's commandments.

Back up to the previous quote from 2Timothy 3:15. My faith is in Yeshua alone, and does not depend upon my prayers/adoration to his mother which He, Himself went to great pains to avoid any connotation that might set her up as being above anyone else.

In Matthew 12, we find that Yeshua is at the temple among the Sanhedrin.
He, without any room for doubt, lets all those around Him know that His family, including His mother, is in no way above anyone else. "Mat 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." You will find this exact same event recorded in Mark 3:32. That would be a “two witness event.”

Then in John 2, we find Yeshua's first miracle, the wedding at Cana event. The festivities had run out of wine, Yeshua had shown up at the festivities, His mother saw him and asked Him to fix the situation. This is HOW He responded. “Jhn 2:3-4  And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. 4. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.” Again, we see that Yeshua, without disrespecting His mother, lets her and others know that she is not above anyone else.

Moving on to praying to someone other than Yeshua, I will repeat the passage of scripture that leaves no room for doubt as to who is the Intercessor. “Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” I can find nowhere that it says, “no man comes to the Father but by me, and no man comes to me but by Mary, my mother.” Throughout the entire Bible, idolatry is constantly being battled and taught against. With as many times as HaShem speaks against idolatry and graven images, you would think it was a very important item. Yeshua, being HaShem in the flesh is no different. He said, "Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Well, I believe that says, the commandment about the graven images and bowing before them was pretty serious business. To teach others to pray to a graven images appears to be a big deal. I am going to give several scriptures to verify that idol worship, whether you call them, gods, demigods or saints, is a big no-no.

“Exo 20:4  Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or **any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:** Exo 20:5  Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;”

“Jer 10:14 Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.” “Jer 25:6  And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.”

Given that we are told to test the spirits, “1Jo 4:1     Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

If HaShem tells us He doesn't change, (Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.) and Paul tells us in Hebrews that Yeshua doesn't change, (Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.) and HaShem tells us He is a jealous God and therefore NOT to bow down to any likeness, then why logically would He send apparitions or even appear Himself, and tell a person something so very much in contrast to what He has already spoken firmly about many many times? Here again I must quote Matthew. "Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

Until Yeshua returns, all has NOT been fulfilled. Therefore, the ordinances against idol worship, which is prayer to, homage to an image or spirit of anything living or dead, remain effective.

Ranger7374 Loc: Arizona, 40 miles from the border in the DMZ

First of all I did not condemn you for not believing in Mary nor will I ever. I may however, use strong words but because of my Faith in Jesus Christ, which is quite strong, I will not condemn any man or woman. As far as my belief, I will defend it as you defend yours. I expect you would. I respect that and will always respect that.

We both believe in Christ. This belief makes us members of the same body. If I choose to take on the Roman Catholic Belief and you choose to take on the Baptist belief, what makes me greater than you or you greater than me? Nothing. I stated in defense of the Churches teaching the Baltimore Catechism which explains the truth better than I can. However, through Christian forbearance and love, I can understand and accept a brother or a sister that believes in the same God differently. However, I do not drum up scripture to prove that my hand is not following my head. For the function of my hand is directed by the Head therefore who am I the other hand to say that this hand is sinning against the head?

You say we pray to and that is incorrect nomeclature. We pray through. For example in this prayer am I praying to St. Michael or am I praying to God through St. Micheal.

"St. Micheal the Archangel, Defend us in battle
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the Devil
we humbly Pray, And Do oh, heavenly Host Cast into hell Satan and all evil spirits seeking the ruin of men's souls--Amen"

or same question applies here, "
Hail Mary full of Grace
The Lord is with thee
Blessed are you among women
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.
Holy Mary Mother of God
Pray for us sinners
Now and at the Hour of our Death, Amen."

or here

"Glory be to the Father
And to the Son
And to the Holy Ghost,
As it was in the beginning
is now, and forever shall be
World with out end Amen."

or here,

"O my Jesus forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven especially those in most need of your mercy. Amen"

or here,

"Hail Holy Queen Mother of Mercy
Our Life our Sweetness and our Hope.
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve
to thee do we send up our sighs mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn then most gracious advocate thine eyes of mercy towards us,
and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
O Clement, O Loving, O sweet Virgin Mary
Pray for us O holy Mother of God
That we maybe made worthy of the Promises of Christ

Let us Pray,

Almighty and Everlasting God, by the cooperation of the Holy Spirit, you prepared the body and soul of Mary, glorious Virgin and Mother, to become worthy habitation of your Son
; grant that by her gracious intercession, in whose commemoration we rejoice, we may be delivered from present evils and from everlasting death. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

the Memorare

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help, or sought your intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, I fly unto you, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To you I come, before you I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in your mercy hear and answer me. Amen."

Now each of the prayers I have shown here are older than both the bible and the novena to Mary. For these prayers were prayed in one variation or another by the early Christians. In time these prayers became more refined and easier to be prayed. Therefore the celebration of Mary as being the Virgin mother of Jesus is celebrated all over the world by Christians. And you tell me that it is an abomination. When these prayers worked and have greater fruits of Love from the Father the Almighty to His Children here on earth you have called this an abomination. With little or no direct quote. For you say do not pray for the dead. Do not pray to Mary. Yet by praying for the dead many souls are released from the chains of Purgatory, by praying to Mary many who were in danger were saved by the hand of God. If that is an abomination, then there is something wrong, for God has answered the prayers by the faithful to Mary and the Saints.

Maybe misread the Scriptures are. Through misrepresentation maybe the belief against Mary and the Saints has come about. I don't understand it nor do I understand how it works and how according to you it is an abomination. We do not pray against God, but to God, through his mother and his friends. As if you were my friend and you are busy with something, and I went to a mutual friend to get the message to you. Is that wrong? Is that evil?

The condemnation that the Word refers to is the idol worship to Satan and evil spirits. That we do not do. For our prayer, for it is not worship but prayer, is to God and God alone, through his messengers. Whether it is by an angel, his mother, or the Saints both Prophets and Saints, it is still a message sent.

I condemn no Christian for the way they believe in Christ. However, should a Christian condemn me for my belief I shall condemn that action.

For if I am bound through Love and Christian forbearance to love a fellow member of Christ, which I do, I must also respect that fellow member so they do not lose faith. This is when I will once again reiterate for the fifth time, lets leave the Mary thing alone. You don't believe in it, I will accept that, but I do so accept it. Either way it should not interfere with any other conversation related to Christ. However, if you continue to attack the belief in Mary, and attack the belief in praying through saints and the dead, know that I will defend this practice for I am a witness to how it does work and how the dead still do interact with the living under the command of God.

The evil ones must be cut off though, that side of it is scary and truely damning. But the side of light is so beautiful and amazing that the prayers given for the lost souls in purgetory to get into heaven are most welcome by these souls. See the living can intercede for the dead, but the dead can only give messages to God and the living, for the dead are dead. The living has power and God has power but the dead can only be messengers and do converse with Jesus.

Again I state do not underestimate, overestimate, or even doubt the power of the Almighty God in Heaven who brings to us all these beautiful gifts. Just because it is not in the bible does not mean it doesn't exist, for is it not written, "With God all things are possible."?

Darla Loc: Hobbs, New Mexico

"Christian history begins with the life and death of Jesus Christ and continues with the formation of the early Christian church, Emperor Constantine's Holy Roman Empire and the great schism into Eastern and Western Christianity." http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/history/history_1.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great_and_Christianity
there are plenty more where those came from.

I must say that statement is false. And when Christ walked the earth Rome was worshiping idols. The Emperor, himself was both emperor and high priest of Jupiter. The Apostles including Paul fought strongly against this paganism. Their converts came from pagan backgrounds. Acts chapter 17, shows Paul once again teaching from scripture, which I assure you, was NOT the Catholic Bible, or any Letter that just suddenly appeared.

In Matthew Chapter 16, we find Yeshua asking whom men say He was. his disciples answer with the names of various prophets. Yeshua then asks them whom they say He is, Peter says that He, Yeshua was the Messiah. Yeshua blessed Peter and pointed out that HaShem had revealed to Peter that Yeshua was the Messiah. Yeshua then tells Peter that He knows him by name and then declares that His church would in fact be built upon the very foundation of that PRINCIPLE (the rock) that Yeshua was the Messiah.

Ranger7374 Loc: Arizona, 40 miles from the border in the DMZ

Another misunderstanding. For the Roman Catholic Church dates back to the Apostles and Christ. So does the Eastern Catholic Church, and the Ethiopian Church and the Eastern Churches. Do you not research history? Constantine united the Roman Church in the West. This is how Constantinople Became the Capital of Rome.

Research the council of Jerusalem, the council of Trent, Council of Nicaea, and the Council of Constantinople. As well as Vatican Council one and Vatican Council II.



FIRST COUNCIL OF NICAEA - 325 AD

INTRODUCTION

This council opened on 19 June in the presence of the emperor, but it is uncertain who presided over the sessions. In the extant lists of bishops present, Ossius of Cordova, and the presbyters Vitus and Vincentius are listed before the other names, but it is more likely that Eustathius of Antioch or Alexander of Alexandria presided. (see Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, ed. Norman P. Tanner S.J.)

The bold text in the profession of faith of the 318 fathers constitutes, according to Tanner "The additions made by the council to an underlying form of the creed", and that the underlying creed was most likely "derived from the baptismal formula of Caesarea put forward by the bishop of that city Eusebius" or that it "developed from an original form which existed in Jerusalem or at any rate Palestine". "A direct descent from the creed of Eusebius of Caesarea is manifestly out of the question." Vol 1, p2)

The figure of 318 given in the heading below is from Hilary of Poitier and is the traditional one. Other numbers are Eusebius 250, Eustathius of Antioch 270., Athanasius about 300, Gelasius of Cyzicus at more than 300.

THE PROFESSION OF FAITH OF THE 318 FATHERS

We believe in one God the Father all powerful, maker of all things both seen and unseen. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten begotten from the Father, that is from the substance (Gr. ousias, Lat. substantia) of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten [Gr. gennethenta, Lat. natum] not made(Gr. poethenta, Lat. factum), CONSUBSTANTIAL (Gr. homoousion, Lat. unius substantiae (quod Graeci dicunt homousion)) with the Father, through whom all things came to be, both those in heaven and those in earth; for us humans and for our salvation he came down and became incarnate, became human, suffered and rose up on the third day, went up into the heavens, is coming to judge the living and the dead. And in the holy Spirit.

And those who say
"there once was when he was not", and "before he was begotten he was not", and that
he came to be from
things that were not, or
from another hypostasis (Gr. hypostaseos) or substance (Gr. ousias, Lat. substantia),
affirming that the Son of God is subject to change or alteration these the catholic and apostolic church anathematises.
CANONS

If anyone in sickness has undergone surgery at the hands of physicians or has been castrated by barbarians, let him remain among the clergy. But if anyone in good health has castrated himself, if he is enrolled among the clergy he should be suspended, and in future no such man should be promoted. But, as it is evident that this refers to those who are responsible for the condition and presume to castrate themselves, so too if any have been made eunuchs by barbarians or by their masters, but have been found worthy, the canon admits such men to the clergy.
Since, either through necessity or through the importunate demands of certain individuals, there have been many breaches of the church's canon, with the result that men who have recently come from a pagan life to the faith after a short catechumenate have been admitted at once to the spiritual washing, and at the same time as their baptism have been promoted to the episcopate or the presbyterate, it is agreed that it would be well for nothing of the kind to occur in the future. For a catechumen needs time and further probation after baptism, for the apostle's words are clear: "Not a recent convert, or he may be puffed up and fall into the condemnation and the snare of the devil". But if with the passage of time some sin of sensuality is discovered with regard to the person and he is convicted by two or three witnesses, such a one will be suspended from the clergy. If anyone contravenes these regulations, he will be liable to forfeit his clerical status for acting in defiance of this great synod.
This great synod absolutely forbids a bishop, presbyter, deacon or any of the clergy to keep a woman who has been brought in to live with him, with the exception of course of his mother or sister or aunt, or of any person who is above suspicion.
It is by all means desirable that a bishop should be appointed by all the bishops of the province. But if this is difficult because of some pressing necessity or the length of the journey involved, let at least three come together and perform the ordination, but only after the absent bishops have taken part in the vote and given their written consent. But in each province the right of confirming the proceedings belongs to the metropolitan bishop.
Concerning those, whether of the clergy or the laity, who have been excommunicated, the sentence is to be respected by the bishops of each province according to the canon which forbids those expelled by some to be admitted by others. But let an inquiry be held to ascertain whether anyone has been expelled from the community because of pettiness or quarrelsomeness or any such ill nature on the part of the bishop. Accordingly, in order that there may be proper opportunity for inquiry into the matter, it is agreed that it would be well for synods to be held each year in each province twice a year, so that these inquiries may be conducted by all the bishops of the province assembled together, and in this way by general consent those who have offended against their own bishop may be recognised by all to be reasonably excommunicated, until all the bishops in common may decide to pronounce a more lenient sentence on these persons. The synods shall be held at the following times: one before Lent, so that, all pettiness being set aside, the gift offered to God may be unblemished; the second after the season of autumn.
The ancient customs of Egypt, Libya and Pentapolis shall be maintained, according to which the bishop of Alexandria has authority over all these places since a similar custom exists with reference to the bishop of Rome. Similarly in Antioch and the other provinces the prerogatives of the churches are to be preserved. In general the following principle is evident: if anyone is made bishop without the consent of the metropolitan, this great synod determines that such a one shall not be a bishop. If however two or three by reason of personal rivalry dissent from the common vote of all, provided it is reasonable and in accordance with the church's canon, the vote of the majority shall prevail.
Since there prevails a custom and ancient tradition to the effect that the bishop of Aelia is to be honoured, let him be granted everything consequent upon this honour, saving the dignity proper to the metropolitan.
Concerning those who have given themselves the name of Cathars, and who from time to time come over publicly to the catholic and apostolic church, this holy and great synod decrees that they may remain among the clergy after receiving an imposition of hands. But before all this it is fitting that they give a written undertaking that they will accept and follow the decrees of the catholic church, namely that they will be in communion with those who have entered into a second marriage and with those who have lapsed in time of persecution and for whom a period (of penance) has been fixed and an occasion (for reconciliation) allotted, so as in all things to follow the decrees of the catholic and apostolic church. Accordingly, where all the ordained in villages or cities have been found to be men of this kind alone, those who are so found will remain in the clergy in the same rank; but when some come over in places where there is a bishop or presbyter belonging to the catholic church, it is evident that the bishop of the church will hold the bishop's dignity, and that the one given the title and name of bishop among the so-called Cathars will have the rank of presbyter, unless the bishop thinks fit to let him share in the honour of the title. But if this does not meet with his approval, the bishop will provide for him a place as chorepiscopus or presbyter, so as to make his ordinary clerical status evident and so prevent there being two bishops in the city.
If any have been promoted presbyters without examination, and then upon investigation have confessed their sins, and if after their confession men have imposed hands upon such people, being moved to act against the canon, the canon does not admit these people, for the catholic church vindicates only what is above reproach.
If any have been promoted to ordination through the ignorance of their promoters or even with their connivance, this fact does not prejudice the church's canon; for once discovered they are to be deposed.
Concerning those who have transgressed without necessity or the confiscation of their property or without danger or anything of this nature, as happened under the tyranny of Licinius, this holy synod decrees that, though they do not deserve leniency, nevertheless they should be treated mercifully. Those therefore among the faithful who genuinely repent shall spend three years among the hearers, for seven years they shall be prostrators, and for two years they shall take part with the people in the prayers, though not in the offering.
Those who have been called by grace, have given evidence of first fervour and have cast off their (military) belts, and afterwards have run back like dogs to their own vomit, so that some have even paid money and recovered their military status by bribes -- such persons shall spend ten years as prostrators after a period of three years as hearers. In every case, however, their disposition and the nature of their penitence should be examined. For those who through their fear and tears and perseverance and good works give evidence of their conversion by deeds and not by outward show, when they have completed their appointed term as hearers, may properly take part in the prayers, and the bishop is competent to decide even more favourably in their regard. But those who have taken the matter lightly, and have thought that the outward form of entering the church is all that is required for their conversion, must complete their term to the full.
Concerning the departing, the ancient canon law is still to be maintained namely that those who are departing are not to be deprived of their last, most necessary viaticum. But if one whose life has been despaired of has been admitted to communion and has shared in the offering and is found to be numbered again among the living, he shall be among those who take part in prayer only (here a variant reading in Les canons des conciles oecumeniques adds "until the term fixed by this great ecumenical synod has been completed"). But as a general rule, in the case of anyone whatsoever who is departing and seeks to share in the eucharist, the bishop upon examining the matter shall give him a share in the offering.
Concerning catechumens who have lapsed, this holy and great synod decrees that, after they have spent three years as hearers only, they shall then be allowed to pray with the catechumens.
On account of the great disturbance and the factions which are caused, it is decreed that the custom, if it is found to exist in some parts contrary to the canon, shall be totally suppressed, so that neither bishops nor presbyters nor deacons shall transfer from city to city. If after this decision of this holy and great synod anyone shall attempt such a thing, or shall lend himself to such a proceeding, the arrangement shall be totally annulled, and he shall be restored to the church of which he was ordained bishop or presbyter or deacon.
Any presbyters or deacons or in general anyone enrolled in any rank of the clergy who depart from their church recklessly and without the fear of God before their eyes or in ignorance of the church's canon, ought not by any means to be received in another church, but all pressure must be applied to them to induce them to return to their own dioceses, or if they remain it is right that they should be excommunicated. But if anyone dares to steal away one who belongs to another and to ordain him in his church without the consent of the other's own bishop among whose clergy he was enrolled before he departed, the ordination is to be null.
Since many enrolled (among the clergy) have been induced by greed and avarice to forget the sacred text, "who does not put out his money at interest", and to charge one per cent (a month) on loans, this holy and great synod judges that if any are found after this decision to receive interest by contract or to transact the business in any other way or to charge (a flat rate of) fifty per cent or in general to devise any other contrivance for the sake of dishonourable gain, they shall be deposed from the clergy and their names struck from the roll.
It has come to the attention of this holy and great synod that in some places and cities deacons give communion to presbyters, although neither canon nor custom allows this, namely that those who have no authority to offer should give the body of Christ to those who do offer. Moreover it has become known that some of the deacons now receive the eucharist even before the bishops. All these practices must be suppressed. Deacons must remain within their own limits, knowing that they are the ministers of the bishop and subordinate to the presbyters. Let them receive the eucharist according to their order after the presbyters from the hands of the bishop or the presbyter. Nor shall permission be given for the deacons to sit among the presbyters, for such an arrangement is contrary to the canon and to rank. If anyone refuses to comply even after these decrees, he is to be suspended from the diaconate.
Concerning the former Paulinists who seek refuge in the catholic church, it is determined that they must be rebaptised unconditionally. Those who in the past have been enrolled among the clergy, if they appear to be blameless and irreproachable, are to be rebaptised and ordained by the bishop of the catholic church. But if on inquiry they are shown to be unsuitable, it is right that they should be deposed. Similarly with regard to deaconesses and all in general whose names have been included in the roll, the same form shall be observed. We refer to deaconesses who have been granted this status, for they do not receive any imposition of hands, so that they are in all respects to be numbered among the laity.
Since there are some who kneel on Sunday and during the season of Pentecost, this holy synod decrees that, so that the same observances may be maintained in every diocese, one should offer one's prayers to the Lord standing.
THE LETTER OF THE SYNOD IN NICAEA TO THE EGYPTIANS

The bishops assembled at Nicaea, who constitute the great and holy synod, greet the church of the Alexandrians, by the grace of God holy and great, and the beloved brethren in Egypt, Libya and Pentapolis.

Since the grace of God and the most pious emperor Constantine have called us together from different provinces and cities to constitute the great and holy synod in Nicaea, it seemed absolutely necessary that the holy synod should send you a letter so that you may know what was proposed and discussed, and what was decided and enacted.

First of all the affair of the impiety and lawlessness of Arius and his followers was discussed in the presence of the most pious emperor Constantine. It was unanimously agreed that anathemas should be pronounced against his impious opinion and his blasphemous terms and expressions which he has blasphemously applied to the Son of God,
saying
"he is from things that are not", and
"before he was begotten he was not", and
"there once was when he was not",
saying too that
by his own power the Son of God is capable of
evil and
goodness,
and calling him
a creature and a work.
Against all this the holy synod pronounced anathemas, and did not allow this impious and abandoned opinion and these blasphemous words even to be heard.

Of that man and the fate which befell him, you have doubtless heard or will hear, lest we should seem to trample upon one who has already received a fitting reward because of his own sin. Such indeed was the power of his impiety that Theonas of Marmarica and Secundus of Ptolemais shared in the consequences, for they too suffered the same fate.

But since, when the grace of God had freed Egypt from this evil and blasphemous opinion, and from the persons who had dared to create a schism and a separation in a people which up to now had lived in peace, there remained the question of the presumption of Meletius and the men whom he had ordained, we shall explain to you, beloved brethren, the synod's decisions on this subject too. The synod was moved to incline towards mildness in its treatment of Meletius for strictly speaking he deserved no mercy. It decreed that that he might remain in his own city without any authority to nominate or ordain, and that he was not to show himself for this purpose in the country or in another city, and that he was to retain the bare name of his office.

It was further decreed that those whom he had ordained, when they had been validated by a more spiritual ordination, were to be admitted to communion on condition that they would retain their rank and exercise their ministry, but in every respect were to be second to all the clergy in each diocese and church who had been nominated under our most honoured brother and fellow minister Alexander; they were to have no authority to appoint candidates of their choice or to put forward names or to do anything at all without the consent of the bishop of the catholic church, namely the bishop of those who are under Alexander. But those who by the grace of God and by our prayers have not been detected in any schism, and are spotless in the catholic and apostolic church, are to have authority to appoint and to put forward the names of men of the clergy who are worthy, and in general to do everything according to the law and rule of the church.

In the event of the death of any in the church, those who have recently been accepted are thereupon to succeed to the office of the deceased, provided that they appear worthy and are chosen by the people; the bishop of Alexandria is to take part in the vote and confirm the election. This privilege, which has been granted to all others, does not apply to the person of Meletius because of his inveterate seditiousness and his mercurial and rash disposition, lest any authority or responsibility should be given to one who is capable of returning to his seditious practices.

These are the chief and most important decrees as far as concerns Egypt and the most holy church of the Alexandrians. Whatever other canons and decrees were enacted in the presence of our lord and most honoured fellow minister and brother Alexander, he will himself report them to you in greater detail when he comes, for he was himself a leader as well as a participant in the events.

The following is not found in the latin text, but is found in the greek text :

We also send you the good news of the settlement concerning the holy pasch, namely that in answer to your prayers this question also has been resolved. All the brethren in the East who have hitherto followed the Jewish practice will henceforth observe the custom of the Romans and of yourselves and of all of us who from ancient times have kept Easter together with you. Rejoicing then in these successes and in the common peace and harmony and in the cutting off of all heresy, welcome our fellow minister, your bishop Alexander, with all the greater honour and love. He has made us happy by his presence, and despite his advanced age has undertaken such great labour in order that you too may enjoy peace.

Pray for us all that our decisions may remain secure through almighty God and our lord Jesus Christ in the holy Spirit, to whom is the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

And also it was the Roman Catholic Church that Cannonized the Bible as we know it, and it was King James that translated the bible that was cannonized by the Roman Catholic Church into English for the Protestant Church. Therefore the bible has orgins from both the Jewish and Roman Catholic Church. So to use the Bible as truth, thus confirms the Roman Catholic Church. Therefore, if the bible is true, then the Church who prayed upon the collection of books in the Bible is also true. If the Church is a false religion so therefore is the fruits of that said church which includes the Bible. Argument is now over.

For the Bible is true, so is the Roman Church. However, as far as Christianity is concerned, the Roman Catholic Church is not the only Christian Church and as St. Paul said, "we are all members of the body of Christ", therefore the Greek Orthodox and the Ethiopian, and other Eastern Churches as well as the Protestant Churches are part of the body of Christ and make up all of Christianity. Thus, the argument is over. With the council of Jerusalem, Nicaea, Trent, Constantinople, and various Councils to include the Vatican Councils, the decisions of the faith of the West, have been established, through prayer and inspiration. And if I were to follow the truth and love, faith and hope of the Roman Catholic Church, I would not deny any of the body of Christ, for the Roman Catholic Church appeals to some, but those who do not accept the Roman teaching, therefore have an opportunity to follow the Greek and Ethiopian Catholic Churches, in order to believe. None of these Churches are against the teachings of Christ. But all believe in Christ and Worship Christ in their own way, but all of these Churches which make up the body of Christ in Christianity are Equal. This equality shows that man worships God in different ways in conjunction with the teachings of Christ. Therefore a Catholic should not deny another Christian of their faith. This is the love of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. For the Word of God is more than a set of rules and laws, for He is of Love and Forgiveness, therefore it is wrong to judge any, if not all, for we do not have that authority.

Now I believe in the Unity of All Christians wherever they may be. However, should a Christian, therefore a follower of Christ does not believe in Christ the way I do, that's okay, for their belief, ensures the faith in Christ in their own way. St. Paul states this, when he chose celibacy,

He writes:"It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. But I say this as a concession, not as a commandment. For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that.

But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion." 1 Corinthians 7:1-9

For if you do not accept this to mean not only celebacy but belief in Jesus then take into consideration the words of Jesus himself when he said, "Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these sayings, that He departed from Galilee and came to the region of Judea beyond the Jordan. And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them there.

The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”

And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”

He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality,[d] and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”

His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”

Jesus Teaches on Celibacy
But He said to them, “All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given: For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it.” Matthew 19:1-12

Therefore one who is baptized and takes the vow of celibacy in accordance with the Catholic church follows these verses, for they accept a vow of marriage to God. Using a broad interpretation of celibacy, one can apply the marriage through faith to Jesus, in the form of not celibacy but in faith. For as Christ and Paul has recognized that all cannot follow the vows of marriage, nor can all follow the vows of celibacy because marriage is for some, and celibacy is for others, as a great sacrifice toward God, so is the belief of a particular Church of Christ. Therefore it is right for some to believe in the prayers of the Roman Church, and it is also right as the Protestant reformation has shown, to not believe in some of the Prayers of the Church. What is important is the Communion of Saints or more importantly the Belief in the Commandments of God through the Grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now I will relate the Profession of Faith right here, everything else is added to this profession of faith, including the prayers to Mary, the Saints and the Dead.

How ever here is the profession of faith, which is not only backed up by scripture, but is older than the collection of books, notice how I said its older than the collection of the Bible.

Here is the creed. This is the core of the Faith. And it is supported by the Bible in which you believe:

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through Him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
He came down from heaven,

and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead
and His kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look for the resurrection of the dead
and life of the world to come. Amen

also I believe in the following in addition to the above creed, this is known as the Apostles Creed,

I believe in God, the Father the almighty
Creator of heaven and earth;
and through Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified died and was buried;
he descended into hell;
on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven, and
is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting. Amen

Not only are these two creeds older than the collection we call, the Bible, but they are also backed up by scripture and this creed was agreed upon by all the early churches to be universal, therefore catholic and apostolic. Which means universal and follows the teachings of Christ as passed down by the Apostles.

Through the prayers of the faithful, the creation of the collection of books that are considered the inspired word of God, have been formed. These books justify the prayers and practices, although I am versed and have a lot of knowledge on the bible, it would take volumes to describe every single solitary action and belief, that I agree with John the Apostle that I believe the Earth it self, or even the memory that is contained in every hard drive in modern day to contain the full explanation by both Scripture and the word, for all the practices of both the Church and Christianity to show that the belief in Christ is universal, and that the Roman Church is only one part of the Body of the Church in Jesus Christ.

Historical proof of this is contained when the church in Rome excommunicated the Greek Churches and Eastern Churches, and when the Greek and Eastern Churches excommunicated the Roman Church. Then the Churches got together and forgave one another for the sin they committed toward each other. It is this point right here that by the example of the forgiveness of the Church that I suggest we follow here on the forum and in life.

For I believe in the unity of all Christians by the power of Jesus Christ. And I believe that through the Love of God, and his Son Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit, that through the true faith in Him, all of Christianity will be reconciled with each other. For if the Church is divided and if Christians are divided, the Devil wins. For did Jesus not say, "A kingdom divided will surely fall"?

So it is imperative, and important to note, that the Roman Catholics do pray through Mary to Christ, as a child would go to the mother to seek intercession from the father. However, in this instance, we go to the mother, to seek intercession from the Son, so the Son will seek intercession from the Father. Therefore the Church, and the Body of the Church, is part of the family of God. This is why we pray the prayer Jesus taught us, in the Our Father. For the Father is our father too. And no father likes to see his children quarrel amongst themselves. This is the message of God.

So once again, I will state, by denying the validity of the Roman Church, you attack the Body of Christ. By me denying any of Christianity I would in turn attack the Body of Christ. I do not deny any of Christianity, however I do question the Jehovah witnesses, but they too are part of the body of Christ and anyone who is part of the body of Christ, therefore a Christian is blessed by Christ. And this blessing is eternal.

I came to this topic not to bash other questions, no sir, but to enlighten my knowledge of God. I have now found myself defending my faith. That is not good. For Christians quabbling amongst Christians over doctrine, or faith, is not love but hate. And now I have declared the Baltimore Catechism which is backed up by the Bible, the Creeds, which is backed up by the bible, any more detail that is required simply shows in wisdom and knowledge that you did not grasp the knowledge presented. And because of this, I do not know how to show that the truths of the prayers are in full alignment of both faith and scripture.

For one cannot deny one point of scripture and accept another point of scripture and call it true. For this is a contradiction of God's love and a misunderstanding of the love of the eternal and all powerful God. I pray that you gain understanding and wisdom to understand that the truths I present concerning the Roman Catholic Church are true, and have been justified by the Ages as being from the Apostles.

Let me end this post with the words of John in Revelations and I will paraphrase, "The Church shall undergo many trials and tribulations." Has this not occurred? Is this not occurring? Is this not to occur again?

The answer is simple, it has occurred, it is occurring, and it will occur again. This is why the Church must unite, for the sake of Jesus Christ. But if you continue to look at the details or customs of the Church know that these details and customs are not for everyone. Therefore, if these customs and details cause you to sin, then these details and customs are not for you. But if these details and customs help you to follow Christ then it is good. However it is wrong and against Christ to deny others to follow Christ, as that the prayers are long established and have brought forth great miracles as the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

So if God justified it, and blessed it, who are we to deny and condemn it?

Ranger7374 Loc: Arizona, 40 miles from the border in the DMZ

Since when is a reminder of faith an Idol? Does that mean the Star of David and the Temple of Solomon, the Ark of the Covenant with the Mercy Seat are all Idols?

I think not, neither are statues of the Apostles or saints nor are the crucifixes or the tabernacle, which are symbols to remind us of the passion of God and the Love of God.