Rainrider Loc: Lovington NM

You seem to be missing some thing here. The Torah, (first 5 books of the Bible) are not written from an Egyptian perspective. Though it is true that Moses was raised as an Egyptian, educated as one, and may have seen the world through their eyes. One must also note that he know he was not an Egyptian. Also do you not think that in his time away from Egypt, he would have been influence by Yiro, (Jethro)? Being how this was a priest of Midyan, his in sight would have helped to shape how Moses looked the world, and seen HaShem.
Also a big part of the Tanakh (Old Testament) was written long before the Babylonian exile. Leaving those parts to be Hebrew. True after the split of Israel and Judah, other factors would have came into play. Yet that does not remove the fact that the Whole of The Word, is in fact the inspired Word of HaShem.
As I have said many times, if one looks to other books out side of HaShem's word, then what we see must be in line with The True Word of HaShem. If it does not line up, then it simply must be disregarded.
Lets say that a person tells us he has translated newly found books of the Bible. Yet that person can't even read the language he claims to have translated. Would we simply take his word for what it tells us, or would we do our best to seek the truth of what it said?
Next, lets say you are reading a book, and in it you find that the Aaronic priesthood was restored to Rainrider by john the Baptist, and in that book it was done in a way that left little or no doubt. Even used scripture to back it, do we just take it that I Rainrider am the leader of this renewed priesthood? Don't get me wrong, I would never make a claim like that, yet there is at lest one religion that does. They even use the Bible to back their claim to fame.
It has never been the idea that you study other things, what has been and remains the thing I wish to get from you, is Biblical backing for the things you say. I do not need you to post any more than book chapter and verse. A simple, ( John 3:16) is all i ask. Yes I have looked at what you said, then I did my best to find Biblical backing for it. On most I can find none at all.
Oddly, when asked on things like Marry being a virgin, you say it will take time. I my self am still waiting that passage. It is hard to take something for real when there is simply no way to back it with the Word. After all, The Word is truth, it has many meanings to us, and grows in it's teachings as we grow in our understanding. If you have any doubt on this, please by all means ask Darla, she has grown in her understanding, and found new teachings in The Word along the way. All she needs is to gain confidants in herself.
Yes I speak openly of her, as the words I place here, she has heard from my own mouth.

jetson

It has to be the RCC. First Rev. 17 and 18 reveal it all. Their church leaders wear purple and scarlet. Islam colors are mostly green. The Vatican is full of these colors, Murder for years the saints of God. Christians are the only group the Bible recognizes as saints. Catholics are not Christians. Islam has not even come close to murdering Christians as the Catholics have. This church is rich and is all over the world. Islam is not. I think Islam will be the false prophet, that will side with the pope in the tribulation and be the ones that will cut heads off of those that won't take the mark.

Darla Loc: Hobbs, New Mexico

So, in a nutshell, the decline of America's moral standards is in fact the "falling away" that precedes the end time calamities that prophecy says will take place because of the falling away from HaShem. Which is, in fact what will cause the people who refuse to acknowledge prophecy and its warnings to be deceived by the Anti-Christ and his minions.

Darla Loc: Hobbs, New Mexico

You might want to do a bit more research on that topic. Throughout history the Islamic movement has in fact been responsible for as many if not more Christian slaughters that the RCC did in the both the Inquisitions and the Pre- Holy Roman Church, by the pre-Holy Roman Church, I mean before Constantine declared Christianity a State religion. The gladiator era, arena era, what have you.

You think Islam is not rich? Do you not know the funding that Bin Laden provided to the Taliban and Al-Qaeda? That did not dry up with his death. The funding is almost limitless for ISIS. OPEC, some of the wealthiest nations on the planet are Muslim nations because of the the wealth in oil.

It does not matter if the nation's people are rich or not. The money is not placed in use for the people's welfare, it is used to forcibly, and violently spread the domination of Islam.

You do not see the RCC going around lobbing rpgs at opposing countries and peoples. Yes, they like Islam are a political entity.

But the big difference and Biblically so, is the fact that the RCC does not deny Yeshua as the messiah or as the Son of God (1John 2:22-23). In fact, their basis of faith depends upon that very idea.

Islam while acknowledge the miraculous virgin birth, they emphatically deny that Yeshua was the Son of God, emphatically declare that Yeshua was nothing more than a mere mortal prophet. More importantly, they deny vehemently that Yeshua was resurrected. Islam goes so far as to declare that Yeshua in fact NEVER died. That in and of itself nullifies the sacrifice for sins that came with the death and resurrection.

Yes, I do know of what I speak. I was subjected to this indoctrination for 3 years due to my erroneous marriage to a devout MUSLIM. I was convinced that there were "peaceful" Muslims in the world. That they worshiped the same God we did with just a different name due to language differences. I earned beatings and sodomy for my troubles.

Check this out if you want a bit more information, then really delve into Muhammad's history and how he distorted the Christian, Judaic, even the Zoroastrian religions just to create his ideology of Islam.

http://universalfreepress.com/history-crusades-what-really-happened/

Ranger7374 Loc: Arizona, 40 miles from the border in the DMZ

Catholics are Christians. And in there is no doubt that the Catholics have killed more Christians. This is undeniable and unfortunate. But for the statement of Catholics are not Christians falls apart since Catholics do believe in Christ and do worship Him and do believe He is one part of the trinity of God. This is an undeniable fact, and as RainRider pointed out the Church will be attacked according to Prophesy. The Saints that are mentions are just that Saints and believers of Christ. It does not say Pope and Cardinals, nor does it say priests and deacons, it says, "Saints" therefore it may well be true and I begin to believe it to be so, that the "administration of the Roman Catholic Church" could be corrupted. This may be true. I do not deny that.

However, one cannot deny the fact that it was the Church, that is just as good as they are evil. It is a two way sword. For remember Satan attacks all Christians not just the Catholics, therefore, I do believe that there are saints within the Catholic Church, just as there are saints in all denominations of the Christians. Therefore, it is wrong to say, catholics are not "Christians". To say the Catholics are not Christians is like saying the Baptists

Now with that out of the way I want to ask RainRider about his two quotes here,


Does not Jude refer to the book of Enoch? Does not the book of Joshua refer to the book of Jasher.

The whole book of Jude, which I will not post the entire book here refers to the book of Enoch.

What about the writing of Moses in Genesis, chapter 6: Is this not the same verse as is written in the book of Enoch? Whereas the book of Enoch is much older than the book of Moses.

"Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.

And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." Genesis 6:1-8

"So the sun stood still, And the moon stopped, Till the people had revenge Upon their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day." Joshua 10:13

and what about, this verse from Samuel

"and he told them to teach the children of Judah the Song of the Bow; indeed it is written in the Book of Jasher" 2 Samuel 1:18

Therefore it is just simple and plain common sense that leads one to ask what is written in the books of Jared and the books of Enoch? For if the books of Enoch and the books of Jared are considered false then the books of Genesis, and Jude, (for the Book of Enoch) and the books of Samuel and Joshua are like wise must be considered false for the foundation of their stories refer to these books.

And if we get into the argument of translation, it always goes back to the statement, "I was not there for I do not know" That is where this part of the argument is leading to. Therefore, after all tests are considered and preformed to the best of our ability and there is still a doubt for or against, then it is what it is, according to Archaeologists. Then we can get into the meaning of the books. Plus this is an on going struggle for new findings hold new clues to what was written. This is why I hold the argument toward the authenticity of both books of Enoch and Jared. But there was some reason they did not include these books in the Cannon. For in the Ethiopian tradition they do include the book of Enoch in their cannon. That is the Ethiopian Catholic Church. Therefore one can argue that the Ethiopian Catholic Church is corrupt for they hold the book as an inspired work, but the argument can also be for the Church so it defaults to "It is what it claims to be" and if pushed even further, the statement of "I wasn't there, therefore I do not know" also applies.

Thus it is a disagreement of faith through reason or reasonable doubt. The more I study this subject trying to gain full knowledge of what the people knew and the practices of the people, and how they followed the bible in both the Hebrew, Greek, Egyptian, Ethiopian, Babylonian, Sumerian, Judah, and Babylonian traditions, and also in the Roman and Gentile viewpoint, which is very hard and extensive. I feel one can get a better understanding of what was written and what it truly means.

For God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all say one Word, to mean multiple things. Therefore looking at just one collection of books may limit a man in their knowledge of God. And this is what I am bringing to the attention of all with my original question on the subject. By discounting the book of Enoch, and the Book of Jared, you discount the Bible. That's not right. But by accepting the Books, we then have to find the meaning of what is written and why they were allowed to survive through the centuries.

It was once said to me, and this maybe a medieval superstition, the Good will survive through time, while evil is destroyed. Well The Books of Enoch and Jared have survived, but there are some parts missing. What are these parts, and how do they affect the story. Some day I feel that the books will be uncovered and the true story, in conjunction with the Bible, will come out, however watching this debate, it is easy to believe that the people will not accept it as true and try to debunk it.

I am trying to see the whole story not the narrow view point supplied by one collection of books. Although that view point, being inspired by the Word of God, compliments the other books, it does not deny nor condemn, and it encourages the reader to read these books. This is the understood knowledge I was talking about. Look at both the book of Jude and the book of Joshua again in this light and you see a whole new bigger world of human history and understanding come to light. That is what I was referring to.

Darla Loc: Hobbs, New Mexico

If you will look at that quote, I never said Catholics were not Christians. In fact, I went to great effort to show that Catholics ARE a Christian denomination and are in fact, responsible for the world acknowledgement of Christianity.

In fact, the quote I believe you were referring to, I was defending the RCC attempting to show that it could not possibly be responsible for the Anti-Christ and that it would be more reasonable to understand that Islam will be the source of the Anti-Christ.

Rainrider Loc: Lovington NM

Thats it in a nut shell. It is hard for me to simplify things due in part to my education. I am use to dealing with others that have a similar back ground, and there for things must be made clear, and backed by more than one witness. that is why I ask for Book Chapter and verse. As they are our witness. Thank you for understanding me and helping to make clear my intent.

Darla Loc: Hobbs, New Mexico

Aww shucks! And you say I have a problem summarizing things.
:)

Ranger7374 Loc: Arizona, 40 miles from the border in the DMZ

Does Matthew not say,

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.” Matt 1:18-24

Or in Luke,
"Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!” Luke 1:26-28

"Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. John 19:25-27

Is this not where Jesus gave the world to his mother, and gave his mother the world?

And if one is to believe in modern science. Then one is to believe the new findings that the dna of a person remains in his or her mother all the years of the life of that mother. Since this is true, then reason would say that Jesus is still in Mary. And Mary has been given to the world, as the world has been given to her.

Therefore, it would be true to accept that Mary, the mother of Jesus is Queen of Heaven and Earth, for John writes:

"And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars:
And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered.

And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems:

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son.
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that there they should feed her a thousand two hundred sixty days.

And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels:
And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.

And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: because the accuser of our brethren is cast forth, who accused them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of the testimony, and they loved not their lives unto death.

Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you that dwell therein. Woe to the earth, and to the sea, because the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.

And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman, who brought forth the man child:
And there were given to the woman two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the desert unto her place, where she is nourished for a time and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

And the serpent cast out of his mouth after the woman, water as it were a river; that he might cause her to be carried away by the river.

And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the river, which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

And he stood upon the sand of the sea." Revelations 12:1-18

Whereas Eve transgressed against God, Mary was for God. What other explanation could these passages mean?

Ranger7374 Loc: Arizona, 40 miles from the border in the DMZ

I do have to say that the RCC will be involved with the anti-Christ but the true followers of the RCC will thus break away and that will form the beast that I do agree with.

Rainrider Loc: Lovington NM

It does not have to be the RCC. As you will note I gave what the spirit of the anti-crhist is. So if you please so kind as too point out how this fits with the RCC in any way. I don't think you can. You see the RCC has as it's corner stone, a belief in Yeshua, they also will tell you that Yeshua gave His life willing for the forgiveness of sin.
Next one must look the text of Rev 17 and 18 with understanding. To do this should we not first understand the symbolic meaning of what is said. For one to look at this in any other way, and seek no other meaning, does that person great harm. For they miss what is intended.
First the beast. We all know that a beast in prophecy is used to denote a form of government. This will be cleared up in just a second.
Next we have a woman. Women are always used to denote a religion. Not a church. You see you can have a religion that is based on the Bible, science, or any number of things. This does not make them the church.
The clothing, is a way of showing that the women has money. It can also show that the religion is placed in position of leadership.
When placed together, what we find is this. The religion spoken of riders on the back of a government. Both work as one, and would claim to be inseparable.
As we move on we find that this combination is drunk on the blood of the saints. Showing us that they have set out to kill any that will not turn from their faith in Yeshua, and embrace what they wish us to follow. This idea is backed by Rev. 13.
As for the beast that was, is not, and shall ascend. This gose hand in hand with Rev.13:3. You see the RCC has never received any form of deadly wound.
Yet when one looks at Islam, we find that in 1918 or so, it did in fact suffer a deadly blow. This blow was to the head. You see when Britain defeated the Ottoman Empire, it was in teh treaty that there would be no Caliphate. As we know, the caliphate was the ruler of that Empire. Islam came real close to becoming a foot note in history over this blow.
So we have the was, the is not, now for the shall ascend.
Islam over the last 20 years or so, has been making a name for it's self. In fact it has made claim that it will be the leader of the world. That all nations will bow to Islam, and will follow Sharia Law. So you see, Islam is Ascending. They have the money, desire, and backing of even Obumer.
The 7 hills. One must know the things they talk of, just as we must look for understanding in the Bible, we are at times forced to look out side the Bible. For the 7 hills, one must find a place that does sit on 7 hills. If the government or religion one wishes to fit with this does not, then that idea would be wrong. So does Rome sit on 7 hills? Yes it does. Yet so does Mecca. That would lead to be forced to find how the rest of this fits. As I have already shown how Islam fits, I ask, can you please now show me how the RCC fits with this? Please do so in the manner that I have.

Darla Loc: Hobbs, New Mexico

?

Darla Loc: Hobbs, New Mexico

You may have a point. Perhaps the RCC would be involved with the Anti-Christ through the Pope's insistence that Islam is a peaceful religion that should be tolerated. Thereby causing many Christians to be deceived at the time of the rise of the Anti-Christ.
Perhaps the RCC will be involved with the Anti-Christ by being responsible for the making of the image of the beast that will be demanded that all the world worship. Idolatry is widely taught within their doctrine.

Rainrider Loc: Lovington NM

You asked,
Does not Jude refer to the book of Enoch? Does not the book of Joshua refer to the book of Jasher.

My answer,
Jude does not say a word about a book of Enoch. It does speak of a prophecy by him. If one knows the oral teachings, they would be slow to say this is talking of a book. As there is to much that has passed down by word of mouth. It is called the Oral Torah. Yes much of it has been written, yet there is just as much, if not more that has not been.
As to the book of Jasher. Do you know what that book is? Have you ever read it? More than likely the answer to both is no. I can say if you have read A book with that title, unless it is a book of songs, both of praise, and sorrow. Then you did not read the book that is talked of in both Joshua 10:13, and 2 Samuel 1:18-27.
As this book is unknown to most of the world, and there is no copy known to exist, I would say any book holding this title is most likely a fraud. Yet to be sure I would have a member of the Sanhedrin look it over before I openly made that claim as fact.

As I have said before. There is much in this book with the Title of Enoch that is not right. Having read more than one book with that title, you will not get to me say it is older than any thing. As I said in past post, the language, and Idioms, do not fit with the time it is said to be written. Also the formation of the letters are not that of paleo-hebrew. So once more to make a claim that I know is not backed by fact is not something I will do.

Though your attempts to back me in a corner are admirable, the fact remains, if what one finds in other books, that claim in any way to be inspired, and/or, an extension of the Word, yet can not be backed by the True Word, that book should be rejected.

Rainrider Loc: Lovington NM

You said,
Does Matthew not say,

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.” Matt 1:18-24

Or in Luke,
"Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!” Luke 1:26-28

"Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. John 19:25-27

Is this not where Jesus gave the world to his mother, and gave his mother the world?

My answer,
How on earth do you find that Marry was given to the world in any of that? Much less that the world was given to her?
Yet in all, this does not in any way say that Marry remained a virgin.

As for what one finds In THE WORD, where a queen of heaven, it is seen only in one book, Jeremiah. This is long before Yeshua, and trust me, before you make claim it talks of Marry, you best read it. You see it tells us that to give homage to a queen of heaven is not a good thing. In fact it tells us this is a form of idolatry. Please read the following.
Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
You may also wish to look at Jer. 44:17-19 and verse 25.

You said,
Therefore, it would be true to accept that Mary, the mother of Jesus is Queen of Heaven and Earth, for John writes:

Rev. 12:1 "And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

My answer,
First I really wish you would post your reference to The Word in the same manner as above. It really does help, the way you post them, one is left with the task of finding them. Were as if you give them in a manner that shows us were they came from, we can simply go to that BOOK CHAPTER and VERSE. One may think that you are doing your best to hide them. This is not what I am thinking, it just seems odd that one would quote the Word and not take time give the address of said passage.

Now to address the meaning of this passage. The women is not Marry the mother of Yeshua, if one takes time to let the Bible interrupt it's self, we may well find many of the things we think are wrong. In this case the woman is Israel. This can be seen from the imagery found in Is. 66:7-10. One may also look at the crown, the number 12 is always synonymous, with Israel. This is due to the 12 tribes. It is even used in the Torah in this same manner. So to have a crown with 12 stars, would point one to Israel. Not the extended Israel, ( as is talked of in Rom. 11). This talks only of the true Israel, them that are direct descendants of Avraham.
John see's Israel in heaven showing us that HaShem protects and preserves His chosen people. This is also made clear all through the Tanakh. No matter what, there has always been a remnant, left in Israel.