American Vet

Doesn't work that way, Woodenhead.

Freedom to act on their own personal beliefs? So is it acceptable to kill murder another person because they are Jewish? Or Black? Or Republican?

Smedley_buzkill

If someone should have the personal belief that YOU should be terminated, I will allow them the freedom to pursue that option. Just because you want to live is no reason to deny the conviction of another that you should not.

donho50

I don't disagree with your opinion. You express what would surely be the desired outcome. But for the women who do not want to live up to your definition of the "responsible thing to do", it should not be compelled by law that she do so. One can hope abortion is "safe, legal, and rare", but the moral compass of the nation is not there yet, let alone lining up behind abolition. Reasonable limits can be imposed, but an outright ban to satisfy the views of the self-righteous is an overreach.

American Vet

Question Don: When does a human life begin?

donho50

Conception.

American Vet

So abortion is ending an innocent human life. Agreed?

donho50

Yes. That is my belief.

Strycker Loc: The middle of somewhere else.

There is no arguing that biological life begins at conception. When that biological life becomes a human life with a soul is an argument that even religions don't agree on. And either way, it is a belief. Not science.

Is the idea that a woman or her doctor should be charged with murder and punished accordingly a part of your argument that abortion is murder? If you believe a woman shouldn't be charged and punished for murder, doesn't that very point negate your whole argument that it is murder. It is a contradiction. How can you claim a murder was committed yet hold the murderer unaccountable? If you do believe that a woman should be punished then you are part of a very small minority. At the point where exceptions to accountability are provided for the intentional murder of an innocent, then, it can no longer be considered as murder, but, rather as a choice and the only logical question is where the line to make that choice is placed.

RandyBrian Loc: Texas

Thank you very much for the polite and reasonable presentation. I do see your point, and agree with much of it.
Though I DO think (know) that viability starts at conception...that point being, in my opinion, when the fertilized egg attaches itself to the wall of the uterus. From that point on, the child will grow normally unless something physically is wrong, or there is outside interference. And I DO agree that this is not a religious decision. It is a human and legal and scientific one.
As for society? Society has a very VERY bad history of choosing wrong over right. Choosing injustice over justice, evil over good. Society 'decided' that women should not vote or have control over their lives. Society 'decided' that owning another human being was perfectly fine, and normal. It was this way for thousands of years. American society upheld both until the 1860's or later. Even after, both women and blacks were regulated to second class citizen status via society 'deciding' it was the way things should be. Example abound. Ihe Inquisition. The acceptance of child labor. The witch trials. Etc. Have we not learned from those errors NOT to let society 'decide'? We are a nation of laws, not mob preference.

RandyBrian Loc: Texas

Thanks to you, too, for replying with logic and dignity.
We do exactly that every day of our lives. I, through society, impose my belief that stealing is wrong, and it does not matter whether YOU believe it is wrong or not. You are not allowed to do it. I, through society, am imposing my beliefs on YOU. Do you drive on the right side of the street? Do you mug people? Do you steal what you need or want? I assume the answer to these are a solid NO!
Do you believe it is acceptable for a mother to murder her child? Apparently so. Any person's 'right to choose' ANYthing does not supersede the right to life. Not for the elderly and infirm, not for a teenager, not for a child, not for a toddler, and not for a preborn baby.

RandyBrian Loc: Texas

No name calling, please, my friend. Please save it for other threads.

Ricktloml

I fear you/TexaCan/myself may hope for reason in a discussion about abortion, but as medical science has advanced there is no denying that having an abortion takes the life of an unborn baby. Only an extreme circumstance could justify taking the life of that baby...(life of mother). I believe after almost 50 years of having the ultimate power---the power of life/death, (with power corrupting/ultimate power corrupting ultimately,) we as a society have become so sick/twisted we don't want to give up that power...even though there is no doubt that abortion kills a baby...it's worth it to keep that power of life/death. A power mere humans were never meant to have.

donho50

I appreciate your feedback Randy, as well as the societal expose' of man's inhumanity to man through the ages. Fortunately, America's darkest periods of injustice were relatively short lived, which some would place between the ratification of the Constitution (1789) through the Emancipation Proclamation (1863), remedied only by a costly Civil War. Others would choose to vilify the country from Jamestown thru George Floyd. However one chooses to quantify America's culpability, the human history of the strong exploiting the weak is inescapable. And there is none weaker among us than the fetus in the womb.

Ricktloml

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I would be fine with keeping abortion legal as long as the baby got to appeal his/her death sentence like any other of the condemned, which sometimes appeal for years.

RandyBrian Loc: Texas

I do not think your argument is valid. Murder is a legal term, defined essentially as the ILLEGAL killing of a human being. There are a number of circumstances where killing is NOT legally murder, and is in fact a morally proper choice. When and where abortion is legal, then it is legally speaking not murder. However, it DOES remain murder morally and ethically, which is why I use the term 'murder'. If a state were to make it legal to kill an unwanted child up to one year of age, I think we would both agree that the act WOULD be morally a murder, even if not legally so. And yes, in locations where abortion in limited, I DO believe that if a woman seeks an abortion outside those limits, and one is performed, then both the woman and the 'doctor' should be charged according to statutes, and if found guilty, serve every day of the punishment.