skyrider

Personally, I believe that religion and science can and does complement each other. The problem arose 300 years ago when
the church decided that scientific discoveries were outside religion and science was forced to proceed in a purely materialistic direction or not at all. That quickly evolved into habit and continues to this day. Fortunately that separation is now beginning to dissolve to at least a small degree.
I see no problem with the concept of evolution if it would stay in its proper place of evolving due to adaptation
to changing conditions. However for evolution to have started with life beginning accidentally from ooze being struck by lightening, is simply mathematically impossible. It can be shown that the 4.5 billion year existence of Earth is simply not enough time for a random process to create one cell, much less a complete intelligent being.
Intelligent design is the only possible answer. In any case it's pretty clear to see that our plan to look at U.M.
from the perspective of our direct experiences could easily go nowhere if we bring in to much Religious
debate or discussion. Suffice to say that most of us believe in God, leave it at that for now, and proceed with our intent.

JW

Agreed, that is why I spoke against including religious arguments. Our purpose, as I understood it, was to relate anecdotal information that was entirely speculative in nature. Religious points of view fall outside of that arena.

skyrider

Yes, but not entirely speculative. Real time genuine experiences to study should be the priority.

manning5 Loc: Richmond, VA

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I thank you, Zemirah, for your most direct advice on our little idea. A rather rapid reference to the bible confirms that your 9-year-old would be scared out of her, er, something, oh, her wits by it. I found at least ten references that are super cautionary. In my ignorance of the dangers, I thought we could investigate these phenomena just as we would a phone call we didn't appreciate, and that no special problems would rise up to bite us. After thinking about it some more, I wonder whether we are sufficiently armored against Satan that we could at the least collect our various events to look them over, not to pursue any of it, but to understand what kinds of phenomena do occur, and how valid they were at the time. Just the facts, Sir! Am I wrong again?

skyrider

As Churchill said, the only thing to fear is fear itself. Proceed as originally planned with this great opportunity to learn a lot.

manning5 Loc: Richmond, VA

This is what I had agreed to also. As I said in my post to Z, I thought it would be like researching a phone call that we didn't appreciate, with no danger involved.

If I understand his concerns, that is not the case. As I interpret it, the phone is rigged so that only two kinds of entities can make calls: 1) God and His helpers; and 2) Satan and his helpers. There are no third parties! Where does this leave us?

skyrider

OK guys, even if there is such a thing as the devil, the answer to the question of "where would that leave us"
is obvious. Paranoid , fear stricken, stopped in our tracks, and unable to pursue the subject at hand.
A win for the "Devil".

manning5 Loc: Richmond, VA

Oh, I am not yet ready to throw in the towel. I would enjoy pawing over our various accounts of these events. So far, I see no harm in that. In fact, we have already done so to a degree. Satan hasn't mugged me yet. and I can't figure out how that approach would harm us. Maybe Z would, but I have my reservations. If you are willing, we should go ahead at least that far. OK?

Using my phone analogy, I have made a long list of the types of fraudulent calls I have received and looked for patterns in them. This is the same thing, I believe, just the phone doesn't exactly ring!

Roamin' Catholic Loc: luxurious exile

One snowy winter morning I drove to my office to pickup new parts I would use to service copiers. That was my profession. I was surprised to also find a letter there for me from the Order of the Sacred and Immaculate Hearts of Jesus and Mary. It had been two years since I had last heard from them, after which I wrote once to them telling them of the persecution I endured and imploring them to protect my anonymity. I maintained monthly contributions. I had verified via the internet that they were legitimate.

They wrote to all their supporters this one time informing us that one of their major contributors was gone and asking if we could give a little extra. I was broke because of six figure credit card debt (accrued by way of mental illness) but I prayed that I may somehow be of help.

Then I went to my first service call of the day, a simple maintenance checkup at a local funeral home. When I arrived I parked near the front door in the fresh snow. I was the only car in the lot, the director was parked at the side. The front door was unlocked, I entered.

There on the desk by the copier stood a sympathy card bearing the easily recognizable image of the Sacred and Immaculate Hearts of Jesus and Mary! I quickly, silently performed the copier maintenance, thinking about my prayers from just minutes before. Probably a coincidence, seeing this image in a funeral parlor. There are all kinds of religious things in a funeral parlor. I finished and stepped outside.

There on the fresh snow, right by my driver's door was a ten dollar bill. There was no one else there, no footprints. It was still snowing but the money had no snow on it, like it was laid there ust moments before. It sure didn't come from me, I rarely saw paper money any more and I hadn't seen a ten dollar bill in ages. So I sent it to you-know-who.

I wondered why only ten dollars? I would have just as easily sent a $100 bill. Then I remembered the miracle of the loaves and fishes.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

Then why is the theory of evolution taught as if it's fact?

manning5 Loc: Richmond, VA

The impression I have is an atheist juggernaut that seized upon evolution as their foundational thesis and will not hear any dissent! In my opinion, evolution is full of contradictions and outright scams, and they are brushed aside because this edifice of support for atheism must not fail! The list of scientists that have poked gaping holes in Neo-Darwinism is legion, but they cannot openly say they refute ND, or they will lose their jobs. It is an exact parallel to Climate Change, where the premise can be refuted but it won't, because money will dry up for research. We have a scientific leadership that must maintain the old dogma to please the old crustations that their foundational ideas are safe, and the money keeps flowing.

It is refreshing to read the works of scientists and philosophers of science that explain their objections to Darwin. But they are simply outnumbered and out maneuvered, so far!

JW

Absolutely, but the conclusions have to be speculative. We try to reach conclusions; religion starts with conclusions.

JW

Good analogy.

JW

Why is the theory of gravity taught as a fact? Evolution is taught as a fact for the same reason gravity is taught as a fact... what we know of it works. You can choose whatever origin pleases you to understand "in the beginning" but the genetic relationships between species is undeniable.

BTW, it is currently being suggested that we did not evolve from chimpanzees; maybe they evolved from us. Actually, neither evolved from the other. Both may have had a common ancestor, but we are, and have been, on separate and unique evolutionary tracks.

skyrider

I say the monkeys evolved from us. This is clear if we look at the direction humans are going in. We see the progression downward if we look at the amoeba which is what we will become if we don't straighten up and fly right.