straightUp Loc: California

First of all, I register as "unaffiliated" because I don't support ANY party. I take position on issues not parties. That being said, I *do* support legal abortion in the first trimester. My reasoning is going to sound ironic to you but I think in the big picture legal abortion, saves more lives.


I make no such assumptions about my wisdom OR my creator.


Are you assuming I don't believe in God? Did I *SAY* I don't believe in God? I was talking about religion, not faith. Some of us can tell the difference.


No offense, but I have too much respect for God to make the arrogant assumption that He can be qualified in a book of stories written by grungy Semites. I say the same about the Koran, which also claims to be an "authority" on God.


Well, now that I know your view of God is dictated by the men who wrote the Bible, let me just say I disagree. What seems obvious to me is that you think being good is submitting to the control of other men. Have fun with that.


Again, we have very different views on this. I think YOU are the one supporting the killing of the unborn by sweeping the issue under the rug. That's essentially all prohibition does. It takes a complete moron to think that people stop doing things just because they're illegal. Women get abortions because they get pregnant when they don't want to and that can be a desperate situation for them. I don't see ANY effort by the anti-choice assholes to actually prevent that from happening (other than demanding abstinence, which is downright naive). 100% of their organized efforts are focused on prohibition which will force uncounted mothers in desperation to abort in the shadows, more likely in later trimesters. But hey... out of sight, out of mind, right?


I certainly don't think I have control over my destiny. I think I can influence it to some degree (and I have) but I can't "control" it. But you got the first part right. The way I see it, we are ALL our own ultimate authorities. YOU answer to the Church because YOU decided to submit. You have no obligation to do so, it was your own choice. Be a man and embrace that. Take some responsibility for yourself for crying out loud.



Is that "obvious" to you because you think the only way anyone can possibly believe in an afterlife is if they submit themselves to religion? Truth is, I don't think I know and I'm ok with that.


I don't think I have to "worship" anyone. I can respect things without having to worship them. Religion is a man-made power structure designed to control you and it gets in the way of any direct relationship with God. I'm thoroughly convinced that I have a closer, more direct relationship with God than you do... I think your reverence for God is hijacked by mortal men who use religion to control you.

BTW, this was the same point the reformist made about the Catholic and Anglican Churches during the Renaissance.


Yeah, I'm not falling for that BS. If you want to control me with fear use a gun.


I make no such assumptions. And I'm getting a little tired of YOU telling ME what I think and how wrong I am. It's incredibly arrogant of you.


Here's what's going to happen... God and I will sit down and light up a joint and have a little chat. He will remind me of that time I ran into that little man who lectured me.

God - "I'm glad you didn't fall for his crap."
Me - "Yeah, me too."
God - "I'm glad you didn't fall for any of those idiot bible-thumpers. BTW - Did you read the Bible?"
Me - "Dude - you KNOW I did"
God - (laughing) "Yeah, I just act like I'm not omnipresent for the sake conversation."
Me - "uh-huh"
God - "It's really a stupid book, isn't it?"
Me - "I always thought so."
silence
Me - "God, why DO you make people so stupid?"
God - "I give everyone brains but it's up to them to use it... Ya know... free will and all that BS".

Now here's the thing, tbut... There is NO reason why YOUR story is any more probable than mine. You've just been programmed to believe in ONE of thousands of stories humans have told about the afterlife from cavemen to you.



Me - "are you actually calling him?"
God - "shhh!"
ring, ring...
Devil - "Hello?"
God - "Hi this is Amazon Prime, there's a problem with a delivery... someone who logs on OPP as tbutkovich"
Devil - "Yeah, WTF?"
God - "It seems he cast the Bible aside and switched his brain on, so..."
Devil - "That's BS!!! He's mine! Hook line and sinker!"
God - "Well, if you hold I can connect you to the false profit help desk."
Devil - "NOOOO!"
click
Me - ha, ha, ha!
God - "'drives him nuts."

True Story - if you don't believe it you will burn in hell. ;)

America 1 Loc: South Miami

Something wrong?

dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA

No one can prove God's existence. By the same token, no one can prove God doesn't exist. I'll hedge my bet in favor of his existence just in case you are wrong. But one thing I can assure you that exists is EVIL!

straightUp Loc: California

Like what?

straightUp Loc: California

Exactly!


Wrong about what? I never said God doesn't exist. I was bashing religion which doesn't have anything to do with God. Can you not make the distinction?


Didn't you just say it's up to God to decide who is good? Isn't evil the opposite of good? Wouldn't that mean that it's up to God to decide what is evil? I mean it's your hypocrisy, I'm just asking how that works for you.

As for me it's not such a matriculation. I think people inherently know what's good and evil, with true psychopaths being perhaps one exception... and perhaps the people who allow their inherent capacity to judge to be overruled by a submission to religion.

tbutkovich

This is not about religion, but about God . If you do not believe the Bible is the “Word Of God,” you will never read it, you will never learn the truth, and unfortunately you will never understand God. The Old Testament covers God’s intervention with man recorded in the writings of men who witnessed these events. The New Testament covers the teaching of Jesus Christ and his disciples recorded by men who witnessed his life, his teachings, his death on the cross the purpose of his death and his resurrection.

dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA

I apologize if you interpreted my comment as saying YOU don't believe in God. That was not my intention. I was using the collective "you" in my statement to refer generally to anyone who is an atheist.

I don't believe I have ever even intimated that it is up to God to decide who is good (or evil). Don't know where you came up with that one. I'll concede that I may have said something snarky which came off sounding this way. I do that a lot.

I don't necessarily believe people inherently know what is good and evil. They have to be taught. However, I do believe some children, at a very early age, show altruistic characteristics just as some children show psychopathic tendencies. Maybe they do inherently know and they just choose to ignore societal conventions. How long did your parents keep reminding you to say "thank you" to people before you remembered to do it on your own?

CounterRevolutionary

Straightup, you write:
"A capitalist will always charge as much as the consumer can afford. So if a socialist subsidizes a consumer so they can afford something without going broke, the capitalist will adjust and charge more.

Oh, gimme a break!
Please go to this OPP discussion's first page to witness private charity in action:

https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-178900-1.html
Private Sector comes to the rescue of Corona 19 Virus with 287 medical ships

Here, private citizens, former NY Mayor Rudy Giuliani and his long time pharmacist friend, Julius Nasso, come to the rescue of New York City's shortage of hospital beds.

This is private industry donating 287 fully staffed floating hospital ships ready for action RIGHT NOW.
This is more than cheap talk, the ships are out there, ready to go.

Please, for God's sake get off your infantile socialist greed and envy. These are self made millionaires and billionaires giving this help for free and the damnable socialist governors won't even take it!

Watch Giuliani's full video, "Common Sense episode 18," from beginning to end, to get the picture of what true generosity is going down to help everybody FROM THE PRIVATE SECTOR, not your lying thieving socialist government.

Next, you write: "The difference between rich and poor is how much money they have."

Not so. Wealth can be accrued in knowledge, health, and the passion for creativity, surely our security is not based on money, but our freedom to choose. How ironic that the professed socialists are always the most greedy for money, somebody else's money!

I think many people today feel insecure because they do not have ownership of "private property" in its fullest definition by John Locke; One's personhood, one's conscience, one's land, and the fruits of one's labor.
Socialism destroys private property in every facet of John Locke's definition; very dangerous, and we are slipping down that path right now.

We could fix that right now with a new Homestead Act opening up the West, ending the Bureau of Land management ownership of 50% of our land. It could be properly zoned for resources, wildlife and homesteaders, but the truth behind the BLM impasse is that YOUR socialists governors are as racist as hell and do not want the common man to become prosperous, move in next door, and marry your daughters!

CounterRevolutionary

Florio, we would agree on this. But I would clarify the "Islamists" as you refer to as phony fundamentalist Islamists, their structure of rule by mullahs is the same as the centralized planning of all socialist despots.

dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA

Straightup wrote:
Socialism doesn't enter into the equation in free-market capitalism. If it did it would not be a free-market.

The capitalist and the consumer is driven by the "hidden hand." He may try to charge as much as the consumer can pay but will not succeed because of competition, where another capitalist will charge less and can make a profit. The consumer will not pay more than he has to if he can find the product for a lower price. The market automatically searches for and reaches this equilibrium point. This is Econ 101 stuff. No command economy is needed.

CounterRevolutionary

Straightup, it simply ain't so.

Iran is COMMUNIST, its "mullahs" were trained in KGB schools prior Khomeini seizing power. Wake up!
And yes, they would execute homosexuals in a heartbeat, after plaguing the Middle East with brucellosis that eats up testosterone in humans. And then there's the addition of biphenyl-6 (synthetic estrogen female hormones) in the food supply that is neutering the nation. That's right, commies make their own mutants and then abort them, sterilize them, and throw them off the rooftops while they feign compassion, pitching socialized medicine as the antidote.

The church believes in the sanctity of all life. In fact, there are numerous gays in the Catholic Church that abstain from sex. But it bothers you that they insist EVERYBODY zip up their pants in the middle of an HIV pandemic forecast to wipe out 1/3rd the world population?

Penicillin is wearing out. Sometimes we cannot have everything we want. And, don't give me that nonsense that "well, everybody is doing it." Time to grow up.

CounterRevolutionary

Huh, what? "How would you divide the land and resources so that each got an equal share..."

Do you want to make everybody equally poor, or unequally rich?

Your needs and my needs are very different. Your wants and my wants are very different. Yet you insist the socialist government hammer us all down to the level of an ant farm? But of course, you are so intellectually superior, the rest of us should have no input regarding our fate?

Honey, your's is the rational of a beehive, or worse, a den of thieves.

straightUp Loc: California

I don't know what you think "this" is... but my criticism was leveled at religion, not God.


That's an incredibly arrogant thing to say. You are more than welcome to your own opinions and if you want to believe that you have to submit to a religion to understand God well, that's your prerogative. And there's nothing wrong with sharing your opinions either but some people are going to have a different point of view and you need to respect that.

There is certainly no call for getting in my face and telling me I will never understand God because you don't think I read the Bible. So back the F off.


Yeah, I know... I've read both. I've gone to Sunday school, I've been baptised, I've been confirmed, I was even an alter boy. And eventually, when I got older, I grew out of it.

I'm not saying that I'm right or that you are wrong. But I've learned to commune with God in my own way and I've come to believe that God is there for those that seek Him, but when people incessantly push it on others, it's sign that it has less to do with God and a lot more to do with political control, which was the point I was making.

tbutkovich

What did you grow out of? Your practice of your religion? Just curious.

No one is trying to control you. You seem to have a fear of religion because you tired of the demands it may have placed on you.

I simply find it hard to believe someone can believe in abortion and be a servant of God.

Everyone has the free will to choose. If you support abortion, that’s your choice but you need to ask yourself is it the right choice in the eyes of God.

Once someone accepts abortion as okay, it sets a precedence and overtime that person becomes a good candidate to support euthanasia of seniors or perhaps euthanasia of those with Down Syndrome, the ill, the poor and the weak. Once the value of life is compromised, it’s easy to expand beyond abortion and expand to the next steps essentially adopting the values of a Nazi.

I could go through your post and refute each paragraph as you have attempted to refute mine, but I believe it would not be worth our time. I believe it’s best to end this discussion here and now.

Good luck to you and may God Bless You!

straightUp Loc: California

Why, because you don't understand simple economics?


I don't think so Sparky... The Navy (which is a socialist organization) is sending three hospital ships... One to NYC, one to LA and one to Seattle. That's been all over the news. But I've been running searches for the last 10 minutes and there is no mention of 127 hospital ships from the private sector. If there was half that many it would also be in the headlines. And I sure as hell can't watch a 20 minute video of Giuliani struggling with his senality, just to see if that's where you got the misinformation from.

Yes, there are a few hospital ships out there run by private organizations like Mercy Ships but we're only talking about five or six at most. I've also heard about the possibility of converting some ships to hospital ships but they are not fully staffed and at the ready.

That being said... I've already stood up to applaud the private sector for what they have done so far and in this case it's a really good thing because our socialists systems are failing to rise to the occasion. You know why? Because Trump is in charge of them now and he's a useless moron.

The problem is (and this is always the case) charity doesn't cut it. It's never enough. I've seen this play out so many times before... There might be a social system designed to deal with a crisis affecting 100,000 people but it gets pushed aside in favor of a privatized system designed to return profits which necessitated a draw down on capacity to deal with only 30,000 people. A crisis comes and 80,000 people are in trouble, but the anti-socialists are sure to point out how wonderful the private system is for saving 30,000 people.

In any case, none of this changes what I said about capitalists charging as much as the consumer can afford. That's just standard business. The charity is either occasional or marginal, often linked to public relations opportunities.


WTF are you talking about? I'm just being matter of fact. I have always expressed a neutral position on socialism and capitalism. I think socialism is better for some things and capitalism is better at other things. I've used analogies like salt and pepper, yin and yang endlessly to emphasize that neutrality. But apparently you are so freaked out about socialism that no can mention the word outside of an insult without you blowing up. Get a grip.


That sounds like BS to me.


Giuliani is a babbling idiot.


LOL - We both know I was being literal not figurative.


No.. it's based on money. Seriously, your fluffy-talk couldn't fool a 5th grader. I don't know what kind of sheltered life you've been living but ask anyone living in America without any money how much freedom of choice they have and see what they say.


Well, I never professed to be a socialist... I just don't freak out about it like you do. Then again, I understand how it works and you obviously don't. If you did, you would know that public funding is driven by NEED. To find the GREED the place to go is Wall Street. That's just common knowledge.


The problem I'm finding here is that you're barking up the wrong tree. It's not socialism, but ironically capitalism that poses the current threat to private ownership. Here's why...

Capitalism tends to concentrate wealth and it's this concentration of wealth that gentrifies real-estate markets. In other words, fewer people with more money are creating a demand on real-estate, driving up prices beyond the reach of an increasing number of middle-class families, hence the effect you mentioned.

The socialist threat you mention is theoretical. The only occasions where we've actually seen it happen were in communist revolutions. But the kind of socialism we see in America and in Europe is Democratic Socialism which is more concerned with social systems than state ownership of land.


Yeah? Well, who's gonna "properly zone" it?


Yeah, that's just sounds like right-wing propaganda. I'm not even going to bother with it.