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Court Rules Christian Florist Broke Law by Refusing to Participate in Gay Wedding
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Jun 9, 2019 17:17:34   #
TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA
 
woodguru wrote:
What is this "practice" of a religion? Being able to refuse people's rights or interject your religious beliefs on another stops right there.


Then why are homosexuals forcing/interjecting upon people to condone their homosexual lifestyle on others that are convinced that homosexuality is wrong? Read the article again. The Baptist lady was being as friendly as she could be, the homosexuals in return are suing her for every dime she has. How is that a punishment that fits the crime? It is total, blatant, vindictiveness, and an attempt to push others to accept their lifestyle as normal, contrary to other people's consciences, or they will absolutely destroy their lives and livelihood.

woodguru wrote:
If you own a company you have no say in anything to do with your employees religion or beliefs. If you were to get so upset at an employee who gets an abortion you would have no right to give them any crap or fire them because they did something that went against your beliefs.


Neither should an employee have the right to complain if an employer "says" that they believe homosexuality is not okay. The employer has just as much right TO practice their religion, and free speech to speak ABOUT their religion, as the gay person has to speak about theirs.

Keep in mind, that it was, for the most part, highly religious people who gave us these freedoms, not godless, communistic, or dictatorial leaders. Seems to me you leftists forget this and want to reverse things so you can have freedom FROM religion which is NOT a right guaranteed by the Constitution.

woodguru wrote:
Your religious beliefs are yours, nobody else even needs to know what they are let alone saying they have anything to do with affecting someone else.


Sounds a lot like double-standards to me. The florist didn't need to know they were making an arrangement for gays, did they?

woodguru wrote:
The word participate was used, they were being forced to participate, selling flowers is not participating. Participate would be perhaps showing up at the church or venue and having to do flower arrangements, which they could refuse.


With that line of reasoning, we could say that get-away-car drivers aren't accessories who are actually "participating" either, because they don't actually participate in the hold up in the bank, they just provide a service to people who are innocent until proven guilty.

Why don't you folks just admit that your real issue is that you want to be free from religious people actually having their liberty to live them out, and express their moral convictions, because you don't agree with them?

Reply
Jun 9, 2019 18:05:32   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
eden wrote:
Yes I understand that part but you do not reference the OT description of Gods psychopathic behavior; genocide, summary executions, unimaginable cruelties and punishments inflicted for what would be viewed today as simple human failings.
Was the OT a fake news chronicle of those times for purposes of control and subjugation of the masses by the Leaders of
the day or is it just a fable of myths interwoven with, and contributed to by many tribal faiths over a long period of time, but with the same basic agenda? Either way it presents a dark side of the human psyche and
brings into question for many of us the fallibility of a faith not prepared to disown it.
Yes I understand that part but you do not referenc... (show quote)
It is striking but not surprising how thoroughly you have failed to comprehend the nature of God in the OT. I reckon such ignorance is excusable given your humanistic world view. You may or may not be forgiven for that, it is entirely up to you.

Reply
Jun 9, 2019 18:21:36   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
JW wrote:
In the past, they were forbidden to immigrate here. It is only recently that Liberals have embarked on their current suicidal path allowing them to settle here.


There was a point when America discriminated against certain religions?

I was unaware...

Reply
 
 
Jun 9, 2019 18:23:39   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
TommyRadd wrote:
You are speaking in generalities and therefore you are getting answers in generalities.

What exact "God's psycopathic" behavior are you referring to? Give a specific example that you feel is beneath God. Just because you don't know what God's reasons may be, and I may not either, doesn't, by that fact, make them "psycopathic".

For example, the response to genocide: because it is God's right to cut off a people who have so corrupted themselves that even He can't see a possible redemption. Did you know that the Bible says:

“Precious in the sight of Yahweh is the death of his saints.” Psalm 116:15

Do you know why that is? It’s because, for a saint of God, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. I don't seek death, but as a blood-bought, born-again, child of God, I look forward to it, all in God's good time, nor do I mourn the death of loved ones in the faith. Why? Because death is the ultimate release from this world of sin, pain and suffering...and trials! But don’t think for a moment that means God doesn’t hold all life precious, because He does, and that is why He has declared murder to be one of the top sins. Many, if not all, of the nations who God had Israel wipe out sacrificed/murdered their children on altars (like how abortionists sacrifice their babies on the altar of sexual pleasure these days). God considered this cultural norm of theirs very evil, and worthy of death: cutting off the whole family or tribe so as not to pollute others. Seems to me, and I haven't catalogued it, that whenever God told Israel He was going to use them as His agent in executing judgement, He typically told them why they were being cut off from the living. If you say you want evil to end, but you don't have the ability to reform any and all evil-doers, through free-will, then who are you to judge God who does know, even the hearts and intentions of people and thus who needs to be cut off, and why, and when it will do the most good, for the greater majority, for the purpose of teaching us and the rest of eternity that choices have consequences.

Furthermore, it is written: “Jesus summoned them, saying, "Allow the little children to come to me, and don't hinder them, for the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these.” Luke 18:16. Did you know that God doesn’t condemn anyone to eternal death who has not committed sin? And children who don’t know or understand are not accountable, and thus do not have the judgment of death hanging over them? That means that cutting off a family line, would be a merciful act from the ultimate perspective of a child who would have followed in the sins of the family...

“3As I live, says the Lord Yahweh... 4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins, he shall die... 20The soul who sins, he shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.” Ezekiel 18:3-4,20

“Bearing” the iniquity of the fathers is not the same as “visiting” the iniquity of the fathers on the children. It is an observable fact that children emulate their parents, and when they grow to adulthood, they either choose to be like their parents in attitude, or, in some cases, consciously choose not to be like their parents.

So, you first need to prove that you know, better than God, what the ultimate state of the peoples He had destroyed would be, that it could be proven they could have been reformed by less drastic means, before you can stand in judgement of His actions. And, failing that, you also have to stand in judgement of the people He condemned, to prove they did nothing worthy of death. And finally, you need to consider that when God created mankind, He gave Adam a commandment not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil lest he would die. And of course he did eat and brought death upon mankind. So, in order to condemn God, you will first have to prove that God is unjust for imposing commandments on people regarding what constitutes moral behavior and what doesn’t. But it doesn't end there, because then you will also have to know, ultimately, who only died in the flesh in this world (which the bible likens to sleep) but will live again in the resurrection; because the story isn't over yet.
You are speaking in generalities and therefore you... (show quote)


Nice explanation Tommy

A most enjoyable read...

Reply
Jun 9, 2019 21:18:11   #
Ricktloml
 
TommyRadd wrote:
You are speaking in generalities and therefore you are getting answers in generalities.

What exact "God's psycopathic" behavior are you referring to? Give a specific example that you feel is beneath God. Just because you don't know what God's reasons may be, and I may not either, doesn't, by that fact, make them "psycopathic".

For example, the response to genocide: because it is God's right to cut off a people who have so corrupted themselves that even He can't see a possible redemption. Did you know that the Bible says:

“Precious in the sight of Yahweh is the death of his saints.” Psalm 116:15

Do you know why that is? It’s because, for a saint of God, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. I don't seek death, but as a blood-bought, born-again, child of God, I look forward to it, all in God's good time, nor do I mourn the death of loved ones in the faith. Why? Because death is the ultimate release from this world of sin, pain and suffering...and trials! But don’t think for a moment that means God doesn’t hold all life precious, because He does, and that is why He has declared murder to be one of the top sins. Many, if not all, of the nations who God had Israel wipe out sacrificed/murdered their children on altars (like how abortionists sacrifice their babies on the altar of sexual pleasure these days). God considered this cultural norm of theirs very evil, and worthy of death: cutting off the whole family or tribe so as not to pollute others. Seems to me, and I haven't catalogued it, that whenever God told Israel He was going to use them as His agent in executing judgement, He typically told them why they were being cut off from the living. If you say you want evil to end, but you don't have the ability to reform any and all evil-doers, through free-will, then who are you to judge God who does know, even the hearts and intentions of people and thus who needs to be cut off, and why, and when it will do the most good, for the greater majority, for the purpose of teaching us and the rest of eternity that choices have consequences.

Furthermore, it is written: “Jesus summoned them, saying, "Allow the little children to come to me, and don't hinder them, for the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these.” Luke 18:16. Did you know that God doesn’t condemn anyone to eternal death who has not committed sin? And children who don’t know or understand are not accountable, and thus do not have the judgment of death hanging over them? That means that cutting off a family line, would be a merciful act from the ultimate perspective of a child who would have followed in the sins of the family...

“3As I live, says the Lord Yahweh... 4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins, he shall die... 20The soul who sins, he shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.” Ezekiel 18:3-4,20

“Bearing” the iniquity of the fathers is not the same as “visiting” the iniquity of the fathers on the children. It is an observable fact that children emulate their parents, and when they grow to adulthood, they either choose to be like their parents in attitude, or, in some cases, consciously choose not to be like their parents.

So, you first need to prove that you know, better than God, what the ultimate state of the peoples He had destroyed would be, that it could be proven they could have been reformed by less drastic means, before you can stand in judgement of His actions. And, failing that, you also have to stand in judgement of the people He condemned, to prove they did nothing worthy of death. And finally, you need to consider that when God created mankind, He gave Adam a commandment not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil lest he would die. And of course he did eat and brought death upon mankind. So, in order to condemn God, you will first have to prove that God is unjust for imposing commandments on people regarding what constitutes moral behavior and what doesn’t. But it doesn't end there, because then you will also have to know, ultimately, who only died in the flesh in this world (which the bible likens to sleep) but will live again in the resurrection; because the story isn't over yet.
You are speaking in generalities and therefore you... (show quote)



Well said!

Reply
Jun 9, 2019 21:25:44   #
Ricktloml
 
Rose42 wrote:
That's Old Testament. Non-believers often misuse verses. Putting homosexuals to death isn't sanctioned om Christianity or Judaism. I don't know if its sanctioned in islam.


And it is a spiritual death caused by direct rejection of God's will. Which is of course much worse than physical death. Although per the old testament it could be applied to actual execution, as could adultery.

Reply
Jun 9, 2019 21:29:18   #
Ricktloml
 
Rose42 wrote:
Fringe elements may sanction it but I don’t know of any outside the Westboro Baptist Church type.

Is it frowned on in islam or more accepted?


The hypocrisy of Islam is homosexuality is publicly condemned, but privately overlooked, especially where pederasty is concerned. In which case I believe you have to have 4 male witnesses or 8 female witnesses to be convicted.

Reply
 
 
Jun 9, 2019 21:42:23   #
Ricktloml
 
eden wrote:
I’m sorry, you seem sincere in your beliefs but
I see the usual intellectual contortions to explain away that being born gay is a false precept and that one may simply “choose” not to participate in such “sin” and everything will be just fine. And what is the “evil” of “this way”? What two consenting adults do in private is our business?

“The Old Covenant period showed us, not only God’s capacity and ability for destroying evil, but also what things constitute evil, including the corrupting of His ways by His own people who, of all people, should know better.”

So, in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah God
had a hissy fit because of some impure behavior of some in the villages so he destroyed everyone, men, women, children,
goats, chickens and goldfish?

Seems harsh for a loving God. And what of the lesson? Did humans come into line after that? Did the example work for others?
Not so much apparently but I’m sure you will have a slick explanation for that too,
I’m sorry, you seem sincere in your beliefs but b... (show quote)



There is no actual medical or scientific proof that homosexuals are in fact "born that way". And there have been dozens of studies done, (many initiated by homosexuals in the hope of proving such to be true.) In 1972 when the APA removed homosexuality from their diagnostic manual as a mental disorder there were so many psychiatrists who were outraged that they insisted, and got a referendum to put it right back in. The final vote in 1973 was 40% to reinstate homosexuality as a mental disorder, 60% to remove. But several of the psychiatrists came forward and revealed there was NO scientific or medical reason for removing homosexuality as a mental disorder. It was removed because of intense political pressure and because militant homosexuals were picketing the psychiatrist's homes and threatening their families.

Reply
Jun 9, 2019 21:53:25   #
TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA
 
Ricktloml wrote:
There is no actual medical or scientific proof that homosexuals are in fact "born that way". And there have been dozens of studies done, (many initiated by homosexuals in the hope of proving such to be true.) In 1972 when the APA removed homosexuality from their diagnostic manual as a mental disorder there were so many psychiatrists who were outraged that they insisted, and got a referendum to put it right back in. The final vote in 1973 was 40% to reinstate homosexuality as a mental disorder, 60% to remove. But several of the psychiatrists came forward and revealed there was NO scientific or medical reason for removing homosexuality as a mental disorder. It was removed because of intense political pressure and because militant homosexuals were picketing the psychiatrist's homes and threatening their families.
There is no actual medical or scientific proof tha... (show quote)


Extremely important points! Thank you for providing!

It’s more of the “plug your ears to the facts that go against your opinion so you can claim victory over an argument” syndrome. I’m sure there’s an easier term for it, but it escapes me at the moment.

Reply
Jun 9, 2019 21:58:24   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
TommyRadd wrote:
Extremely important points! Thank you for providing!

It’s more of the “plug your ears to the facts that go against your opinion so you can claim victory over an argument” syndrome. I’m sure there’s an easier term for it, but it escapes me at the moment.


Confirmation Bias...

Only listening to arguments that support your beliefs...

We are all guilty of it to the degree that we tend to assign more value to information that supports our arguments... But some people make an art of it

Reply
Jun 9, 2019 22:58:41   #
Ricktloml
 
TommyRadd wrote:
Extremely important points! Thank you for providing!

It’s more of the “plug your ears to the facts that go against your opinion so you can claim victory over an argument” syndrome. I’m sure there’s an easier term for it, but it escapes me at the moment.


The inmates are truly in charge of the asylum. Most people know someone who identifies as a homosexual. And the person they know is nice, funny, decent, a family member, a valued friend or an appreciated colleague. It doesn't change the fact that their chosen lifestyle is a deviate lifestyle, not an alternative one. And now the pandering to this mental illness has resulted in those who want help with this problem are legally prevented from getting it. I understand there was abusive therapy at one time, but to demand that one accept homosexuality if one doesn't want to is sick and perverted. Then you get to the fact that older men coercing teens into this lifestyle used to be called child molestation, now it's called "mentoring". Since homosexuals are not "born that way" they have to recruit. And the rotting out of our culture makes recruiting that much easier. Now they are demanding that our school system groom future candidates for them

Reply
 
 
Jun 9, 2019 23:25:54   #
eden
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
It is striking but not surprising how thoroughly you have failed to comprehend the nature of God in the OT. I reckon such ignorance is excusable given your humanistic world view. You may or may not be forgiven for that, it is entirely up to you.


It is striking but not surprising how thoroughly you have failed to comprehend that I do not need the forgiveness or approval of your psychotic God in order to enjoy a happy, successful and productive life.
You may or may not be forgiven for that, it is entirely up to you.

Reply
Jun 10, 2019 00:16:05   #
JW
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
There was a point when America discriminated against certain religions?

I was unaware...


There was never a discrimination against the religion as such. The discrimination was against a political goal that was antithetical to USA Constitutional aims. An oath of allegiance had to be sworn to get a green card or to become a citizen. Religions that forbade their adherents to swear allegiance to any other power were impediments to immigration.

Reply
Jun 10, 2019 00:25:59   #
JW
 
woodguru wrote:
What is this "practice" of a religion? Being able to refuse people's rights or interject your religious beliefs on another stops right there. If you own a company you have no say in anything to do with your employees religion or beliefs. If you were to get so upset at an employee who gets an abortion you would have no right to give them any crap or fire them because they did something that went against your beliefs.

Your religious beliefs are yours, nobody else even needs to know what they are let alone saying they have anything to do with affecting someone else. The word participate was used, they were being forced to participate, selling flowers is not participating. Participate would be perhaps showing up at the church or venue and having to do flower arrangements, which they could refuse.
What is this "practice" of a religion? B... (show quote)


You have no RIGHT to be served by me or my business because that would constitute involuntary servitude which is tantamount to slavery. You have every right to walk into my business and purchase whatever I have on my sales floor so long as you exercise ordinary courtesy.

I would not dream of pushing my beliefs onto someone else nor will I tolerate being subjected to someone else's beliefs.

Reply
Jun 10, 2019 00:33:56   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
eden wrote:
It is striking but not surprising how thoroughly you have failed to comprehend that I do not need the forgiveness or approval of your psychotic God in order to enjoy a happy, successful and productive life.
You may or may not be forgiven for that, it is entirely up to you.
I said nothing about your freedom to enjoy a happy, successful and productive life. I merely pointed out your total ignorance of the nature of God.

Reply
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