A sincere question to believers in a creator God…
May 31, 2019 02:44:06 #
John King:
...JW, please give us some background as to why you have posted this question/topic. Do you believe in a "creator God"? Have you been asking this question to yourself? Do you believe there is a God and thus are you searching for more? I am agnostic. I don't know if there is a creator God or not. I constantly see believers attempting to lean on science to prove there is a creator and when science supports them, it's, 'See, THERE!'. When science doesn't suit their particular beliefs, then it's, 'Science is not the answer'; science can't this or science can't that...
If they believe in a creator God, they are functioning on faith. Surely the world around them feeds that faith. They already claim to believe in things that cannot be proven or disproved. Why do they not simply accept the evidence of their eyes. They already claim to accept the evidence of their hearts.
I have no objection to thinking with whatever part of the body seems appropriate to anyone's individual needs.
I take great exception to their reaction to those who choose to think with their brains.
It is my belief that, if God exists, God would care about that which was created. God would have reason for creating and thus care about what was created. This would lead one to wonder are there examples of God showing this caring. That really is the fundamental question, what is the evidence that the creator cares about His creation. I look about myself and see no such evidence whatsoever. However, if I was a believer, there is so much in the world to show caring from the perspective of belief... at least from a human's point of view. It's really good for the ego to 'know' that we are images of God, Himself, and the masters of a whole world He made just for us.
The documentation passed down to us found in what we call the Bible declares the concern God has for mankind! It declares that God desires a personal relationship with the creation, especially mankind . . . and has been seeking that relationship throughout the lives of every single person that has existed. Just as it makes no sense that a believer should turn to science to support that belief, it makes no sense for me to turn to any ancient outcome motivated writing to seek my answers.
"Why do you need more?" is the ending question of this topic. I would propose that it is not so much that we need more . . . . but that is God that wants more . . . God wants to restore the kind of relationship that was there when Adam and Eve walked with God in the Garden of Eden. Why do we need more?!? It is because just believing there is a God is inadequate . . . there needs to be a relationship! To me, that comes across like an admonition to not forget our invisible childhood friends.
If I was to turn to the Bible, it would be to 1st Cor. 13:11; When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For me, religion was very much a thing of childhood.
...JW, please give us some background as to why you have posted this question/topic. Do you believe in a "creator God"? Have you been asking this question to yourself? Do you believe there is a God and thus are you searching for more? I am agnostic. I don't know if there is a creator God or not. I constantly see believers attempting to lean on science to prove there is a creator and when science supports them, it's, 'See, THERE!'. When science doesn't suit their particular beliefs, then it's, 'Science is not the answer'; science can't this or science can't that...
If they believe in a creator God, they are functioning on faith. Surely the world around them feeds that faith. They already claim to believe in things that cannot be proven or disproved. Why do they not simply accept the evidence of their eyes. They already claim to accept the evidence of their hearts.
I have no objection to thinking with whatever part of the body seems appropriate to anyone's individual needs.
I take great exception to their reaction to those who choose to think with their brains.
It is my belief that, if God exists, God would care about that which was created. God would have reason for creating and thus care about what was created. This would lead one to wonder are there examples of God showing this caring. That really is the fundamental question, what is the evidence that the creator cares about His creation. I look about myself and see no such evidence whatsoever. However, if I was a believer, there is so much in the world to show caring from the perspective of belief... at least from a human's point of view. It's really good for the ego to 'know' that we are images of God, Himself, and the masters of a whole world He made just for us.
The documentation passed down to us found in what we call the Bible declares the concern God has for mankind! It declares that God desires a personal relationship with the creation, especially mankind . . . and has been seeking that relationship throughout the lives of every single person that has existed. Just as it makes no sense that a believer should turn to science to support that belief, it makes no sense for me to turn to any ancient outcome motivated writing to seek my answers.
"Why do you need more?" is the ending question of this topic. I would propose that it is not so much that we need more . . . . but that is God that wants more . . . God wants to restore the kind of relationship that was there when Adam and Eve walked with God in the Garden of Eden. Why do we need more?!? It is because just believing there is a God is inadequate . . . there needs to be a relationship! To me, that comes across like an admonition to not forget our invisible childhood friends.
If I was to turn to the Bible, it would be to 1st Cor. 13:11; When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For me, religion was very much a thing of childhood.
May 31, 2019 03:57:45 #
JW wrote:
John King: br br ...JW, please give us some backg... (show quote)
Did I answer your question?
May 31, 2019 04:25:21 #
John King wrote:
Did I answer your question?
From your perspective, I suppose you did, but not from mine.
I'll rephrase; why can't believers understand that belief cannot be proven nor successfully challenged. By the way, I place atheists among believers. It all comes down to 'my belief can beat up your belief'.
If you believe in a creator God or if you believe there is no God at all; isn't that belief enough? If it is not, that doesn't say much for belief.
May 31, 2019 05:08:38 #
JW wrote:
From your perspective, I suppose you did, but not from mine.
I'll rephrase; why can't believers understand that belief cannot be proven nor successfully challenged. By the way, I place atheists among believers. It all comes down to 'my belief can beat up your belief'.
If you believe in a creator God or if you believe there is no God at all; isn't that belief enough? If it is not, that doesn't say much for belief.
I'll rephrase; why can't believers understand that belief cannot be proven nor successfully challenged. By the way, I place atheists among believers. It all comes down to 'my belief can beat up your belief'.
If you believe in a creator God or if you believe there is no God at all; isn't that belief enough? If it is not, that doesn't say much for belief.
Okay! My point in what I was trying to say is this:
Once one comes to the point of believing in God, one of two things follows . . . either one will leave it at that or one will seek a deeper understanding of God.
The inquisitive one, seeking a deeper understanding, will search out the writings about God. They may settle on believing by faith alone. But some have an experience that can't be proven because it is something that only happened to them alone.
As I said before, it is relationship that is most desired . . . by even most humans . . . and it is the same with God in my opinion. But there are those that seek for justification of their beliefs in order to share the truth they have found. It is not that they need more in order to believe . . . it is that they seek information that can be shared with those they are sharing their faith with. Apologetics is a term that describes what Christians do when they are sharing their faith with others. It gives reasons to believe or the reasons they believe.
But none of this is relevant to those who just believe there is a God and leave it at that. So why do they need more?!? Perhaps more is needed in order to share what they believe in!
...just my opinion.
May 31, 2019 06:43:03 #
nwtk2007
Loc: Texas
badbob85037 wrote:
There is also the Bible. The odds a book written that long ago to predict the future with 100% accuracy is greater than the grains of sand on the earth to one. It tells us the Earth is round and suspended by nothing, the atom and everything in between. Ones that deny the Bible are ones that have never read it.
It also said the sun spins around the earth, that there was a tree with fruit such that, if eaten, would give eternal life and knowledge of good and evil, that a donkey can talk, that penile foreskins have great value, that God must cheat to win at wrestling, that all animals of the earth fit into one boat and water covered the highest mountains(six miles higher that today's sea level), that the dead can be conjured up from their "sleep", etc, etc.
May 31, 2019 07:15:12 #
JW wrote:
From your perspective, I suppose you did, but not from mine.
I'll rephrase; why can't believers understand that belief cannot be proven nor successfully challenged. By the way, I place atheists among believers. It all comes down to 'my belief can beat up your belief'.
If you believe in a creator God or if you believe there is no God at all; isn't that belief enough? If it is not, that doesn't say much for belief.
I'll rephrase; why can't believers understand that belief cannot be proven nor successfully challenged. By the way, I place atheists among believers. It all comes down to 'my belief can beat up your belief'.
If you believe in a creator God or if you believe there is no God at all; isn't that belief enough? If it is not, that doesn't say much for belief.
Both of you should consider another perspective... have you ever heard of anthropomorphism? Giving human characteristics to non-human things? While I believe in a Supreme Intelligence, for lack of a better term, what makes you think that an entity capable of creating the entire universe; (or at least starting the creation ball rolling) CAN be understood by humans? I think any attempt to ascribe human like attributes a Being of this nature is an exercise in futility.
Suppose that this "Being" is not supernatural at all but simply an as yet not understood part of the natural order of things? What if survival of consciousness after physical death is simply a natural phenomenon rather than a religious one? There are lots of things we understand imperfectly or not at all. One thing remains consistent about human scientific achievement; whenever we think we have reached some sort of pinnacle, sooner or later we are proven wrong.
May 31, 2019 07:59:16 #
Smedley_buzkill wrote:
Both of you should consider another perspective...... (show quote)
Huzzah
Somebody is in fine form this morning
May 31, 2019 08:03:37 #
Smedley_buzkill wrote:
Both of you should consider another perspective...... (show quote)
Leave it to you~~ well said my friend...
We know so little....
May 31, 2019 08:32:43 #
One of the reasons we know Christ's return is in the wings is by the huge increase in scoffers and mockers.
Jeremiah 17:15 "Listen to what they are saying to me. They are saying, “Where are the things the LORD threatens us with? Come on! Let’s see them happen!”
The mockery that is taking place in America is on an ever increasing level. People in our own families will be heard saying, "well when is he coming blah, blah, blah."
Christians should never fear mockers because God has forewarned us of them. Be aware that there are many and there will be even more in the future. They are arrogant, and lack knowledge. The world hates Jesus so true Christians will indeed be mocked and persecuted. Mockers don’t attempt to understand the Word of God, but instead scoff.
Not only do we find unbelievers mocking harder than ever before, but there are many professing Christians who mock God and his ways, false converts in America are fighting against God. On contemporary topics like homosexuality and abortion they claim, "these are not sins, you’re teaching legalism," thus, twisting Scriptures as never before.
They mock God all day long.
Psalm 14:1-2 Fools say to themselves, “There is no God.” They are corrupt and commit evil deeds; not one of them practices what is good. The Lord looks down from the heavens upon humanity to see if anyone shows discernment as he searches for God.
2 Peter 3:3-4 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, "Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."
Galatians 6:7 "Stop being deceived; God is not to be ridiculed. A person harvests whatever he plants."
Isaiah 28:22" Now stop your mocking, or your chains will become heavier; the Lord, the LORD Almighty, has told me of the destruction decreed against the whole land."
Jeremiah 17:15 "Listen to what they are saying to me. They are saying, “Where are the things the LORD threatens us with? Come on! Let’s see them happen!”
The mockery that is taking place in America is on an ever increasing level. People in our own families will be heard saying, "well when is he coming blah, blah, blah."
Christians should never fear mockers because God has forewarned us of them. Be aware that there are many and there will be even more in the future. They are arrogant, and lack knowledge. The world hates Jesus so true Christians will indeed be mocked and persecuted. Mockers don’t attempt to understand the Word of God, but instead scoff.
Not only do we find unbelievers mocking harder than ever before, but there are many professing Christians who mock God and his ways, false converts in America are fighting against God. On contemporary topics like homosexuality and abortion they claim, "these are not sins, you’re teaching legalism," thus, twisting Scriptures as never before.
They mock God all day long.
Psalm 14:1-2 Fools say to themselves, “There is no God.” They are corrupt and commit evil deeds; not one of them practices what is good. The Lord looks down from the heavens upon humanity to see if anyone shows discernment as he searches for God.
2 Peter 3:3-4 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, "Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."
Galatians 6:7 "Stop being deceived; God is not to be ridiculed. A person harvests whatever he plants."
Isaiah 28:22" Now stop your mocking, or your chains will become heavier; the Lord, the LORD Almighty, has told me of the destruction decreed against the whole land."
nwtk2007 wrote:
It also said the sun spins around the earth, that there was a tree with fruit such that, if eaten, would give eternal life and knowledge of good and evil, that a donkey can talk, that penile foreskins have great value, that God must cheat to win at wrestling, that all animals of the earth fit into one boat and water covered the highest mountains(six miles higher that today's sea level), that the dead can be conjured up from their "sleep", etc, etc.
May 31, 2019 08:48:07 #
nwtk2007
Loc: Texas
Zemirah wrote:
One of the reasons we know Christ's return is in t... (show quote)
I don't "mock" God, I simply point out things in the Bible. You assume it to be true and the Word of God. I do not. I don't think God does either. In fact, I think God is laughing that fills would actually believe that mythical silliness. But, I think he still cares for them.
May 31, 2019 08:58:35 #
Zemirah wrote:
One of the reasons we know Christ's return is in t... (show quote)
Well said Zemirah.
Of course our finite minds can’t grasp all of who He is. But He gave us His word to learn about Him.
May 31, 2019 09:12:20 #
nwtk2007 wrote:
I don't "mock" God, I simply point out things in the Bible. You assume it to be true and the Word of God. I do not. I don't think God does either. In fact, I think God is laughing that fills would actually believe that mythical silliness. But, I think he still cares for them.
That is a very kind sentiment...
I cannot recall if you are religious or not...
Do you believe there is any truth to be found in the Bible?
May 31, 2019 12:16:49 #
Nickolai wrote:
I see nature just as well as superstitious people.... (show quote)
Quote—“all perfectly adapted to their natural habitat” add to that our distance to the sun and the partnership between the animal and plant life, only The Designer/Creator can accomplish that. If there is no Creator then you have to believe that NOTHING created everything out of nothing. How would that happen?
May 31, 2019 15:25:55 #
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Not the point of my question...
And you know it...
I have no doubt that we (and this entire universe) are the creation of the Lord...
Which in no way offers support for this statement "If we are nothing more than time plus matter plus chance, nothing more than chemistry and physics in motion, then we have no intrinsic worth. Our worth then would be determined by the state or some extrinsic philosophy. "
Once again - why?
And you know it...
I have no doubt that we (and this entire universe) are the creation of the Lord...
Which in no way offers support for this statement "If we are nothing more than time plus matter plus chance, nothing more than chemistry and physics in motion, then we have no intrinsic worth. Our worth then would be determined by the state or some extrinsic philosophy. "
Once again - why?
Bottom line 1 Cor 15:12-19
May 31, 2019 16:47:57 #
Smedley_buzkill wrote:
What ifs and suppositions are pretty much the basis of agnostic theism. Both of you should consider another perspective...... (show quote)
An agnostic theist believes in the existence of a god or gods, but regards the basis of this proposition as unknown or inherently unknowable. The agnostic theist may also or alternatively be agnostic regarding the properties of the god or gods that they believe in.
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