A sincere question to believers in a creator God… (Page 9): Fallacies are fallacies... They have nothing to do with opinion or ego... They are faults in the logical construction of an...

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A sincere question to believers in a creator God…

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May 30, 2019 09:06:39 #

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Rose42 wrote:

You did. Its your opinion its fallacy ridden because you have a very weak foundation making your rhetoric empty and ego driven

Even the examples you gave show a lack of understanding - yet again - of Christianity. And islam

Fallacies are fallacies...
They have nothing to do with opinion or ego...
They are faults in the logical construction of an argument...

What examples?
I gave no examples of the fallacies in the article... Are you confusing me with PeterS?

May 30, 2019 09:16:17 #

Kazudy

Nickolai wrote:

The Shakespearean prose is admittedly beautiful bu... (show quote)

Some can see the Creator’s work, many like you can not. In the end ALL will see, even you just wait.

May 30, 2019 12:40:30 #

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

Canuckus Deploracus wrote:

I specified that I was referencing Christianity only...

And your question dealt with my reply using the term "historically"...

Why did you target Christianity only?

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May 30, 2019 14:07:47 #

Nickolai

Blade_Runner wrote:

You are confusing the Origin of the Species with t... (show quote)

When your writing fiction you can have any out come you want it's easy

May 30, 2019 14:21:37 #

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

Nickolai wrote:

When your writing fiction you can have any out come you want it's easy

When are you going to publish your work?

May 30, 2019 14:23:27 #

Rose42

PeterS wrote:

So after 2000 years you finally became civilized? Do you want a metal, is that it?

Do you know what a Christian is? The difference between Catholics and Christians? There is a big difference. Most of the atrocities were done by Catholics.

Even if that weren't true islam is by FAR the most destructive and cancerous religion out there. No other can hold a candle to it. Its been that way throughout history. The prophet Mohammed was a murderer, rapist, pedophile and thief. The foundation of the religion is rotten and to pretend otherwise is dishonest.

May 30, 2019 14:39:03 #

Nickolai

Blade_Runner wrote:

I am curious to know why you need an answer to this question. You don't seem to be well grounded in your beliefs. Just the impression I get.

But, if you are willing: Ravi Zacharias - Dealing With Intrinsic Human Value - April 5, 2018

Or,

Apathy, Atheism, and the Absurdity of Life Without God

Here is a truth I wish everyone would take the time to earnestly and honestly contemplate:

If God does not exist and there is no life after death, then there is no ultimate meaning, value, or purpose in life.

The question of God’s existence is the most important question we can seek to answer. If God does not exist and we do not survive the death of our bodies, life is ultimately absurd. J.P. Moreland provides an illustration which helps bring this truth home:

Suppose I invited you over to my house to play a game of Monopoly. When you arrive I announce that the game is going to be a bit different. Before us is the Monopoly board, a set of jacks, a coin, the television remote, and a refrigerator in the corner of the room. I grant you the first turn, and puzzlingly, inform you that you may do anything you want: fill the board with hotels, throw the coin in the air, toss a few jacks, fix a sandwich, or turn on the television. You respond by putting hotels all over the board and smugly sit back as I take my turn. I respond by dumping the board upside down and tossing the coin in the air. Somewhat annoyed, you right the board and replenish it with hotels. I turn on the television and dump the board over again.

Now it wouldn’t take too many cycles of this nonsense to recognize that it didn’t really matter what you did with your turn, and here’s why. There is no goal, no purpose to the game we are playing. Our successive turns form a series of one meaningless event after another. Why? Because if the game as a whole has no purpose, the individual moves within the game are pointless. Conversely, only a game’s actual purpose according to its inventor can give the individual moves significance.[1]

As Moreland articulates, if the game of Monopoly as a whole has no purpose, the individual moves within the game have no meaning or value. The only way your moves within the game of Monopoly have significance is if you discover the purpose of the game and you align yourself with that purpose.

As it is with Monopoly, so it is with life. Like the game of Monopoly, the only way our individual lives have any ultimate meaning or value is if life has purpose behind it, and real purpose requires both God and life after death.

To help think about this, let us suppose that God does not exist. In an atheistic scenario, we as human beings are simply Johnny-come-lately biological accidents on an insignificant speck of dust we call Earth which is hurtling through empty space in a meaningless and random universe that will eventually die a cold heat death. In the big scheme of things, we are no more significant than a swarm of mosquitoes. In a universe where there is no God and no afterlife, our actions are meaningless and serve no final end because ultimately each one of us, along with everyone we know and influence, will die and enter oblivion. Mention of morality is an incoherent babbling; there is no difference between living the life of a saint or a sociopath, no difference between a Mother Theresa and an Adolf Hitler. William Lane Craig frequently refers to this as “the absurdity of life without God.”[2] He states,

Without God the universe is the result of a cosmic accident, a chance explosion. There is no reason for which it exists. As for man, he’s a freak of nature—a blind product of matter plus time plus chance. If God does not exist, then you are just a miscarriage of nature, thrust into a purposeless universe to live a purposeless life…the end of everything is death…In short, life is utterly without reason…Unfortunately, most people don’t realize this fact. They continue on as though nothing has changed.[3]

The Cure for Apathy?

It seems to me that any sensible person who honestly reflects on the absurdity of life without God cannot at the same time remain apathetic toward the question of God’s existence. God’s existence matters and has tremendous implications for our own existence. Life’s absurdity without God should bother us. It should keep us awake at night. It should jar us out of our apathetic attitude toward ultimate issues. Unfortunately this is often not the case, especially in our information age where it is far too easy to remain distracted and caught up in the daily busyness of life. I am often amazed how so many people can simply go on day to day without ever giving a second thought to the most important questions in life.

But if we want to be intellectually honest, and if we are at all concerned with real meaning, value, and purpose, the question of God’s existence demands our attention. We ignore this topic and remain apathetic to it only to our own peril. As Brian Auten has stated, “the wise man seeks God.”[4] For the reasonable person, reflection on the absurdity of life without God should be enough to extinguish any remaining apathy regarding the question of God’s existence.

Perhaps then, apathy (or apatheism) is not something that can be changed directly, i.e., it is not something that can simply be willed away through direct effort. Rather, like our other beliefs, apathy must be changed indirectly. If apatheism is the belief that “the existence of God is not meaningful or relevant to my life,” perhaps reflecting on the absurdity of life without God will be powerful enough to indirectly change apathetic beliefs and help communicate the importance of taking God and other ultimate issues seriously.

The Inconsistent Atheist

I have never met an atheist who lives consistently with the implications of his naturalistic worldview. Though he rejects both God and life after death, he continues to live his life as if his actions have real ultimate meaning, value, and purpose. As Craig stated above, “they continue on as though nothing has changed.” Atheists reject God but still desire meaning, value, and purpose in life, so they indubitably find something to give their devotion to, be it themselves, family, money, pleasure, education, work, social causes, or politics. But neither do any of these subjective pursuits have ultimate significance or objective value in a world without God. In the end, the atheist must borrow from the Christian worldview in order to infuse their own life and actions with meaning and purpose. This is because atheism and the naturalistic worldview offers no hope and provides no grounding for significance and value. Ken Samples states,

Naturalism as a worldview seems unable to offer the kind of meaning, purpose, and hope that humans require and yearn to experience. Instead, the ultimate fate of the individual, humanity, and even the universe will inevitably be the same regardless of what any person may do. Nothing that anyone thinks, says, or does will change the fact that each individual person, all of humankind collectively, and the universe itself (due to entropy) will someday be utterly extinct, lifeless, and cold. The outcome of naturalism is an inevitable hopelessness.[5]

In other words, naturalism fails the existential test. Honest atheists cannot live happily and consistently with their worldview. It has nothing to offer but depression, despair, and dejection. Christianity on the other hand succeeds exactly where atheism fails:

Biblical Christianity therefore provides the two conditions necessary for a meaningful, valuable, and purposeful life: God and immortality. Because of this, we can live consistently and happily within the framework of our worldview. Thus, biblical Christianity succeeds precisely where atheism breaks down…Therefore, it makes a huge difference whether God exists.[6]

Conclusion

Jesus said, “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent…and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice” (John 17:3, 18:37).

Real meaning, value, and purpose comes from knowing God and making God known. But it isn’t enough to simply understand this purpose and assent to its truth. In order for our individual lives to have real significance we need to willfully align ourselves with this truth, and that means aligning ourselves with Jesus Christ, the author and perfecter of our faith (Heb. 12:2).

[1] J.P. Moreland, The God Question: An Invitation to a Life of Meaning (Eugene: Harvest House, 2009), 34-35.
[2] See William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith: Christian Truth and Apologetics, 3rd ed. (Wheaton: Crossway, 2008), chapter 2, and On Guard: Defending Your Faith with Reason and Precision (Colorado Springs: David C. Cook, 2010), chapter 2.
[3] Craig, On Guard, 37.
[4] See his essay “The Wise Man Seeks God” available at http://www.apologetics315.com/2010/05/essay-wise-man-seeks-god-by-brian-auten.html.
[5] Kenneth Richard Samples, A World of Difference: Putting Christian Truth-Claims to the Worldview Test (Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2007), 217.
[6] Craig, On Guard, 49-50 (his italics).

I am curious to know why you need an answer to thi... (show quote)

What ridiculus notions In other words,--
" naturalism fails the existential test. Honest atheists cannot live happily and consistently with their worldview. It has nothing to offer but depression, despair, and dejection. Christianity on the other hand succeeds exactly where atheism fails: "

I have never suffered from depression, despair, or dejection nor have I detected such in athiest friends or relatives in fact in my experience it is my Christian friends and relatives that that are in need of some kind of spiritul lift. I hsve met many men and women that used to be a drunk then they found god. They traded one dependence for another. Athiest in general don't have dependencies and needs for worshiping supernatural invisible beings. Like life in general the religious types I have met run the gamet from well ballanced indivuals to fanatics to those who cannot utter a sentence without following it with "praise the lord " who are unable to carry on a conversation about anything but god and appeare to be suffering from mental illness

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May 30, 2019 14:57:43 #

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

Nickolai wrote:

What ridiculus notions In other words,-- br "... (show quote)

I understand how thoroughly biased you are, Nik, and I understand that there are many atheists who have a basic belief in right and wrong, but look at the big picture.

The 20th Century was the most violent century in human history. During that century, atheist governments murdered more of their own citizens than the number of people killed in war action.

20th Century Democide

May 30, 2019 15:15:54 #

Nickolai

Kazudy wrote:

Some can see the Creator’s work, many like you can not. In the end ALL will see, even you just wait.

I see nature just as well as superstitious people. But I see it entirely differently. I see first the ecosystem. I see a stream I see the mayflies, damsel flies, caddis flies , butter flies, I see and understand their life cycles. When I see a dessert, a swamp, a mountain, a forest, I think of the plants and animals in those ecosystems and how different they from one another they are --all perfectly adapted to their natural habitat. Many existing no where else on the planet in the beauty, splendor, and awesomeness of nature and knowing that millions of years from now it will all look different

May 30, 2019 17:53:29 #

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

Nickolai wrote:

I see nature just as well as superstitious people.... (show quote)

Why was this beautiful world created and why were we created to appreciate it? This didn't happen by random chance.

When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet . . .
Psalm 8:3-6

May 30, 2019 18:09:09 #

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Blade_Runner wrote:

Why did you target Christianity only?

Target?

You need to relax...

Your entire argument yesterday was that God (God of Abraham....Christian God..) was responsible for creation and therefore necessary to a moral system...

So when asked for examples I used Christianity...

Shocking I know

You're correct... I could have used Islam or Judaism or Hinduism or Buddhism.. But I chose Christianity because you are a Christian...

Is the logic truly that obscure?

May 30, 2019 18:50:25 #

Rose42

Blade_Runner wrote:

Why did you target Christianity only?

I think in your heart you know the answer to that question.

May 30, 2019 18:53:07 #

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

Canuckus Deploracus wrote:

Target? br br You need to relax... br br Your e... (show quote)

You did this because I am a Christian? Why? Was it your intention to bait me? To slap me in the face with what I believe?

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob created this universe. He is the God of Judah, Christianity, and Islam.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me

Bible scholars and theologians have crunched the numbers across the entire recorded 5000 year history of Judeo-Christianity, from the beginning to the present and the result is an estimated number of deaths from all causes at 25 million. They took into account the estimated population and technological advancements over the passing centuries. This estimation includes the Crusades and Inquisitions (Roman Catholics).

In the 1400 year history of Islam, the number of people murdered is estimated at 292 million, and the victims included many Muslims. Within a century of the founding of Islam, the entire Jewish and Christian population of North Africa was annihilated.

I see no evidence of a global network of Jewish or Christian terrorist groups committing the atrocities that Muslims are committing today.

May 30, 2019 19:25:33 #

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Blade_Runner wrote:

You did this because I am a Christian? Why? Was it your intention to bait me? To slap me in the face with what I believe?

This statement is ridiculous...
Why would I "slap you in the face" with our religion?

You make a poor victim...

Quote:

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob created this universe. He is the God of Judah, Christianity, and Islam.

Yes...
Would you have prefered I be more inclusive?

Quote:

Bible scholars and theologians have crunched the numbers across the entire recorded 5000 year history of Judeo-Christianity, from the beginning to the present and the result is an estimated number of deaths from all causes at 25 million. They took into account the estimated population and technological advancements over the passing centuries. This estimation includes the Crusades and Inquisitions (Roman Catholics).

I specifically requested this information months ago... You claimed not to have it...

Could you post a link to your source?
And could the source please include the methodology it used to arrive at the number?

I don't mean to complain but the source you cited to support your claim of 290 million deaths from Islam gave no mention of the methodology used to arrive at the number and was full of supposition...Not to mention misinformation...

Example: A supposed invasion of China during the Tang Dynasty that there is no record of in China...

Quote:

In the 1400 year history of Islam, the number of people murdered is estimated at 292 million, and the victims included many Muslims. Within a century of the founding of Islam, the entire Jewish and Christian population of North Africa was annihilated.

See... Here is the problem...
You make these claims... But the article you use to support them is supposition and misinformation...

Example:
To this day there are Coptic Christians in Egypt... Think about that... You make the claim that all Christians in northern Africa were annihilated... Yet there they are... And have been for centuries....

This is not a fallacy... This is willful ignorance..

Why would you make such a ridiculous statement that can be disproven with a basic understanding of geography, history and religion?

Quote:

I see no evidence of a global network of Jewish or Christian terrorist groups committing the atrocities that Muslims are committing today.

There have been groups throughout history that sought to subvert and destablize nations...

The mistake you make is in attributing/ generalizing these groups to Islam as a whole...

I am not seeking conflict with you... We are brothers... With very similar political and theological leanings...
Can we not find concord?

May 31, 2019 01:54:05 #

John King

JW wrote:

It would seem to me that the evidence you seek is all around you. The magnificence of a perfect day; the shy beauty of the creatures that populate the space around you; the bounty the Earth provides; aren’t those things proof enough for you that your creator God exists? Why do you need more?

After looking at the initial topic, I've come to conclude that there is more to this question than meets the eye.

JW, please give us some background as to why you have posted this question/topic. Do you believe in a "creator God"? Have you been asking this question to yourself? Do you believe there is a God and thus are you searching for more?

It is my belief that, if God exists, God would care about that which was created. God would have reason for creating and thus care about what was created. This would lead one to wonder are there examples of God showing this caring.

The documentation passed down to us found in what we call the Bible declares the concern God has for mankind! It declares that God desires a personal relationship with the creation, especially mankind . . . and has been seeking that relationship throughout the lives of every single person that has existed.

"Why do you need more?" is the ending question of this topic. I would propose that it is not so much that we need more . . . . but that is God that wants more . . . God wants to restore the kind of relationship that was there when Adam and Eve walked with God in the Garden of Eden. Why do we need more?!? It is because just believing there is a God is inadequate . . . there needs to be a relationship!

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