Rising Stars of the Republican Party (Page 4): The big problem with the whole marriage debate is that we, as a society are confused about whether its a religious covenant or a...

The Progressive Patriot

grazeem wrote:

Oilfield dave:
In part I agree with you. Marrage should be a thing to be done in a RELIGIOUS setting, privately. The religious organization should be able to decide what they want, and what they don't, but shouldn't be able to tell anyone else what to do.

However, all other unions should be CIVIL UNIONS, including both straight and gay people. One is a marrage, one is a civil union, both have EXACTLY THE SAME RIGHTS.

The big problem with the whole marriage debate is that we, as a society are confused about whether its a religious covenant or a civil/legal contract. That confusion stems from the strange arrangement that there is between government and religious institutions regarding how people are married. Couples must get a license from the state, then they have the choice of taking the vows in a civil ceremony or going to a cleric. Giving that authority to the cleric is a problem in a country where there is supposed to be separation of church and state. Now, I think that we can agree that for all people , it is a legal arrangement. Therefore all people should be married in a civil/legal setting. Then, if they want the blessing of their religion, they can have a separate religious ceremony. I believe that its done that way elsewhere. In any case, it should be called marriagegay or not. If we could just get past the issue, and understand that it is, primarily civil/ legal in natuer there should be no question about same sex marriage . What other contract considers the gender of the participants?

People who do not want a religious ceremony should not be relegated to what many might perceive as a lesser status of Civil Union The word Marriage in and of itself is very important to gay people. It is universally understood to mean a certain thing. For instance, a gay person might be turned away from visiting their partner in a hospital because some ignoramus doesnt understand , or does not want to believe that they have the same rights. That same confusion might surface if straight couples started to identify themselves as "civil unions" Marriage is a status universally reccognised and it shoud be available to all people.

The Progressive Patriot

While were on the subject of who can marry who, let me raise another issue. Intersexual people. You know that there are really more than just two sexes? OMG! You didnt! Its true, so the marriage issue is even more complex that you knew. Intersexual people, born with characteristics of both male and female are a reality. This condition can range from subtle hormonal and chromosomal abnormalities to outward physical signs that the person is not clearly male or female. Traditionally, the medical response has been to channel these unusual but real people into being a male or female. This has been done medically, psychologically and surgically . One problem is that we, and the medical community have a poor understanding of the consequences of this approach. There may be implications related to trans-sexuality , gender confusion and other mental health issues, as well as same sex attractions.
Now before I go on, its important that I say that I am in no way saying that gayness can or should be explained in biological terms. Gay and lesbian people should be afforded all of the rights and respect of straight people regardless of biology. The point is only that SOME same sex attractions MAY be related to intersexual issues. There is so much that we dont understand.
Having said that, I want to call attention to the fact, that there is a growing community of intersexual people, who reject the societal insistence that they identify as either male or female. In addition, there is a movement within the medical and mental health fields that supports that view and no longer rush to find a medical or surgical cure . Many now believe that there are as many as five different sexes-varying degrees of maleness and femaleness- and that those people should be allowed to be who and what they are without society putting a traditional gender label on .
So, that brings us back to the marriage issue and who can marry who because, as the intersexual movement grows, this will surly come up. What will happen when an intersexual person, who refused to be pigeon holed into a traditional sexual category , wants to marry a male, or a female. What will happen when someone who is more male than female wants to marry someone who more female than male, but on some level they are of the same sex. You may laugh and ridicule this now, but mark my word, the issue will come up and it will have to be dealt with. I submit to you that the only solution is to allow any two people who want to marry each other to do so. Whats the big deal?

oldroy Loc: Western Kansas (No longer in hiding)

TheChardo wrote:

While were on the subject of who can marry who, let me raise another issue. Intersexual people. You know that there are really more than just two sexes? OMG! You didnt! Its true, so the marriage issue is even more complex that you knew. Intersexual people, born with characteristics of both male and female are a reality. This condition can range from subtle hormonal and chromosomal abnormalities to outward physical signs that the person is not clearly male or female. Traditionally, the medical response has been to channel these unusual but real people into being a male or female. This has been done medically, psychologically and surgically . One problem is that we, and the medical community have a poor understanding of the consequences of this approach. There may be implications related to trans-sexuality , gender confusion and other mental health issues, as well as same sex attractions.
Now before I go on, its important that I say that I am in no way saying that gayness can or should be explained in biological terms. Gay and lesbian people should be afforded all of the rights and respect of straight people regardless of biology. The point is only that SOME same sex attractions MAY be related to intersexual issues. There is so much that we dont understand.
Having said that, I want to call attention to the fact, that there is a growing community of intersexual people, who reject the societal insistence that they identify as either male or female. In addition, there is a movement within the medical and mental health fields that supports that view and no longer rush to find a medical or surgical cure . Many now believe that there are as many as five different sexes-varying degrees of maleness and femaleness- and that those people should be allowed to be who and what they are without society putting a traditional gender label on .
So, that brings us back to the marriage issue and who can marry who because, as the intersexual movement grows, this will surly come up. What will happen when an intersexual person, who refused to be pigeon holed into a traditional sexual category , wants to marry a male, or a female. What will happen when someone who is more male than female wants to marry someone who more female than male, but on some level they are of the same sex. You may laugh and ridicule this now, but mark my word, the issue will come up and it will have to be dealt with. I submit to you that the only solution is to allow any two people who want to marry each other to do so. Whats the big deal?

While were on the subject of who can marry who, l... (show quote)

Let me tell you my story about same sex and maybe you can see why I don't care to see them marrying. When I got out of high school I was so naive that I didn't know about things like that. Oh yes, in 1950 there were lots of us. Anyway I noticed in a 5 hr. class I had that this really talented piano player always sat beside me and spent too much time just staring at my crotch area. Finally I talked to some older people and learned that Johnny was what they called qu**r back in that day. I could see that for how he acted in that class. Finally, he invited me to his dorm room and tried to put some moves on me. Not knowing how nasty I was being I promised him that if he ever tried that again I would beat him to death, probably. We became fast friends after that and he just stayed to his "girl friend" who was his saxophone player in his combo. They even tried to get a marriage license in about 1957 and in that part of Kansas at that time in history were lucky to get out of the courthouse in one piece.

I well remember the 1950s through the 1970s when closet doors were still closed. I keep trying to imagine why the activist homosexuals had to try to force themselves on other people when they had been so able to get along in their closets. I still wonder about that. I don't know about your intersexuals at all. Do they have enough of one or the other to reproduce? I don't know. However, I am so inexperienced with homosexuals that I have had many good friends who turned out to be that way. Most of them married women, that is those who were male looking. I really became sick of the whole thing when my sons came to the house talking about fudge packers. I heard that one for a long time before someone explained it to me. How do they reproduce that way, anyway?

Man, I am so old fashioned that I just don't understand much of that kind of living. I never could figure out what the target of pissing contests among homes got out of sitting on the ground and being pissed upon. However, I have seen too many videos of this happening to not believe it does. I was pissed on once and beat the hell out of that kid.

Ok it is now your turn to let my knowledge about aberrant sex to expand.

The Progressive Patriot

oldroy wrote:

TheChardo wrote:

While were on the subject of who can marry who, let me raise another issue. Intersexual people. You know that there are really more than just two sexes? OMG! You didnt! Its true, so the marriage issue is even more complex that you knew. Intersexual people, born with characteristics of both male and female are a reality. This condition can range from subtle hormonal and chromosomal abnormalities to outward physical signs that the person is not clearly male or female. Traditionally, the medical response has been to channel these unusual but real people into being a male or female. This has been done medically, psychologically and surgically . One problem is that we, and the medical community have a poor understanding of the consequences of this approach. There may be implications related to trans-sexuality , gender confusion and other mental health issues, as well as same sex attractions.
Now before I go on, its important that I say that I am in no way saying that gayness can or should be explained in biological terms. Gay and lesbian people should be afforded all of the rights and respect of straight people regardless of biology. The point is only that SOME same sex attractions MAY be related to intersexual issues. There is so much that we dont understand.
Having said that, I want to call attention to the fact, that there is a growing community of intersexual people, who reject the societal insistence that they identify as either male or female. In addition, there is a movement within the medical and mental health fields that supports that view and no longer rush to find a medical or surgical cure . Many now believe that there are as many as five different sexes-varying degrees of maleness and femaleness- and that those people should be allowed to be who and what they are without society putting a traditional gender label on .
So, that brings us back to the marriage issue and who can marry who because, as the intersexual movement grows, this will surly come up. What will happen when an intersexual person, who refused to be pigeon holed into a traditional sexual category , wants to marry a male, or a female. What will happen when someone who is more male than female wants to marry someone who more female than male, but on some level they are of the same sex. You may laugh and ridicule this now, but mark my word, the issue will come up and it will have to be dealt with. I submit to you that the only solution is to allow any two people who want to marry each other to do so. Whats the big deal?

While were on the subject of who can marry who, l... (show quote)

Let me tell you my story about same sex and maybe you can see why I don't care to see them marrying. When I got out of high school I was so naive that I didn't know about things like that. Oh yes, in 1950 there were lots of us. Anyway I noticed in a 5 hr. class I had that this really talented piano player always sat beside me and spent too much time just staring at my crotch area. Finally I talked to some older people and learned that Johnny was what they called qu**r back in that day. I could see that for how he acted in that class. Finally, he invited me to his dorm room and tried to put some moves on me. Not knowing how nasty I was being I promised him that if he ever tried that again I would beat him to death, probably. We became fast friends after that and he just stayed to his "girl friend" who was his saxophone player in his combo. They even tried to get a marriage license in about 1957 and in that part of Kansas at that time in history were lucky to get out of the courthouse in one piece.

I well remember the 1950s through the 1970s when closet doors were still closed. I keep trying to imagine why the activist homosexuals had to try to force themselves on other people when they had been so able to get along in their closets. I still wonder about that. I don't know about your intersexuals at all. Do they have enough of one or the other to reproduce? I don't know. However, I am so inexperienced with homosexuals that I have had many good friends who turned out to be that way. Most of them married women, that is those who were male looking. I really became sick of the whole thing when my sons came to the house talking about fudge packers. I heard that one for a long time before someone explained it to me. How do they reproduce that way, anyway?

Man, I am so old fashioned that I just don't understand much of that kind of living. I never could figure out what the target of pissing contests among homes got out of sitting on the ground and being pissed upon. However, I have seen too many videos of this happening to not believe it does. I was pissed on once and beat the hell out of that kid.

Ok it is now your turn to let my knowledge about aberrant sex to expand.

quote=TheChardo While were on the subject of who... (show quote)

You start out by saying that you're going to explain why you're against gay marriage. However, all you do is ramble about some experiences that you had in the 50's This explains nothing except maybe that to harbor some bad feeling about gays. Please either discuss the issue or stop wasting peoples time . Now you want me to discuss my experiences. Maybe you want to get off on that? Forget about it. What I've done is also irrelevant to the topic. It's not about me, or you.

oldroy Loc: Western Kansas (No longer in hiding)

TheChardo wrote:

oldroy wrote:

TheChardo wrote:

While were on the subject of who can marry who, let me raise another issue. Intersexual people. You know that there are really more than just two sexes? OMG! You didnt! Its true, so the marriage issue is even more complex that you knew. Intersexual people, born with characteristics of both male and female are a reality. This condition can range from subtle hormonal and chromosomal abnormalities to outward physical signs that the person is not clearly male or female. Traditionally, the medical response has been to channel these unusual but real people into being a male or female. This has been done medically, psychologically and surgically . One problem is that we, and the medical community have a poor understanding of the consequences of this approach. There may be implications related to trans-sexuality , gender confusion and other mental health issues, as well as same sex attractions.
Now before I go on, its important that I say that I am in no way saying that gayness can or should be explained in biological terms. Gay and lesbian people should be afforded all of the rights and respect of straight people regardless of biology. The point is only that SOME same sex attractions MAY be related to intersexual issues. There is so much that we dont understand.
Having said that, I want to call attention to the fact, that there is a growing community of intersexual people, who reject the societal insistence that they identify as either male or female. In addition, there is a movement within the medical and mental health fields that supports that view and no longer rush to find a medical or surgical cure . Many now believe that there are as many as five different sexes-varying degrees of maleness and femaleness- and that those people should be allowed to be who and what they are without society putting a traditional gender label on .
So, that brings us back to the marriage issue and who can marry who because, as the intersexual movement grows, this will surly come up. What will happen when an intersexual person, who refused to be pigeon holed into a traditional sexual category , wants to marry a male, or a female. What will happen when someone who is more male than female wants to marry someone who more female than male, but on some level they are of the same sex. You may laugh and ridicule this now, but mark my word, the issue will come up and it will have to be dealt with. I submit to you that the only solution is to allow any two people who want to marry each other to do so. Whats the big deal?

While were on the subject of who can marry who, l... (show quote)

Let me tell you my story about same sex and maybe you can see why I don't care to see them marrying. When I got out of high school I was so naive that I didn't know about things like that. Oh yes, in 1950 there were lots of us. Anyway I noticed in a 5 hr. class I had that this really talented piano player always sat beside me and spent too much time just staring at my crotch area. Finally I talked to some older people and learned that Johnny was what they called qu**r back in that day. I could see that for how he acted in that class. Finally, he invited me to his dorm room and tried to put some moves on me. Not knowing how nasty I was being I promised him that if he ever tried that again I would beat him to death, probably. We became fast friends after that and he just stayed to his "girl friend" who was his saxophone player in his combo. They even tried to get a marriage license in about 1957 and in that part of Kansas at that time in history were lucky to get out of the courthouse in one piece.

I well remember the 1950s through the 1970s when closet doors were still closed. I keep trying to imagine why the activist homosexuals had to try to force themselves on other people when they had been so able to get along in their closets. I still wonder about that. I don't know about your intersexuals at all. Do they have enough of one or the other to reproduce? I don't know. However, I am so inexperienced with homosexuals that I have had many good friends who turned out to be that way. Most of them married women, that is those who were male looking. I really became sick of the whole thing when my sons came to the house talking about fudge packers. I heard that one for a long time before someone explained it to me. How do they reproduce that way, anyway?

Man, I am so old fashioned that I just don't understand much of that kind of living. I never could figure out what the target of pissing contests among homes got out of sitting on the ground and being pissed upon. However, I have seen too many videos of this happening to not believe it does. I was pissed on once and beat the hell out of that kid.

Ok it is now your turn to let my knowledge about aberrant sex to expand.

quote=TheChardo While were on the subject of who... (show quote)

You start out by saying that you're going to explain why you're against gay marriage. However, all you do is ramble about some experiences that you had in the 50's This explains nothing except maybe that to harbor some bad feeling about gays. Please either discuss the issue or stop wasting peoples time . Now you want me to discuss my experiences. Maybe you want to get off on that? Forget about it. What I've done is also irrelevant to the topic. It's not about me, or you.

quote=oldroy quote=TheChardo While were on the ... (show quote)

I don't like to do this but one of my main reasons against same sex marriage is that I just don't understand how "fudge packers" and their counter parts of the other "sex" reproduce without some real help. We were built to reproduce one way and they don't do things that way. When we talk about marriage we are talking about something that it sickens me to think about same sexers doing.

That packer thing is something that I leaned early in the present century when I finally asked my sons (early 20's) what they meant by that term.

I think the whole same sex "marriage" thing is something that some activists have to push. I have talked with some of those people who liked living outside the closet and felt like they were accepted in their neighborhoods because they tried to live like everyone else and didn't try to push for what they couldn't get. I guess they were in the closet and still didn't know it.

grazeem Loc: Arizona

Old roy:

You are a bigot.

This isn't 1950.

Planes fly without propellers.
Tires last 60,000 miles
Cars don't leak oil on the driveway.
We know the moon isn't made of green cheese.

And people don't all fit into the two holed box, that was thought to exist then.

The world has evolved.

Become an evoluyionary.

oldroy Loc: Western Kansas (No longer in hiding)

grazeem wrote:

Old roy:

You are a bigot.

This isn't 1950.

Planes fly without propellers.
Tires last 60,000 miles
Cars don't leak oil on the driveway.
We know the moon isn't made of green cheese.

And people don't all fit into the two holed box, that was thought to exist then.

The world has evolved.

Become an evoluyionary.

That is one of the nicest names I have been called lately, and surely because I am not a supporter of gay marriage.

I don't intend to become an evolutionary, though, just to please left leaners like you.

Did you believe that part about the moon at any time in your life? I never did believe that one. However, we drive vehicles so old at my house that they sure do leak on the street or driveway.

How much do you pay for those over 60,000 mile tires, anyway?

grazeem Loc: Arizona

In 2003, we bought an S 10 pickup, the factory tires, I took off at 65,000 miles, after one went flat.

They had about 1/3 of the tred left.

I gave them to one of my employes, and he is still running the three.

It is amazing.

Good year has a 60,000 guaranteed tire.

The Progressive Patriot

grazeem wrote:

In 2003, we bought an S 10 pickup, the factory tires, I took off at 65,000 miles, after one went flat.

They had about 1/3 of the tred left.

I gave them to one of my employes, and he is still running the three.

It is amazing.

Good year has a 60,000 guaranteed tire.

Stand Back Grazeem, let me have at him. Roy, no body wants you to change to please us. Change for yourself or otherwise your going to die a hateful old coot. You have no right to deny others equality because of who they are, just because you disapoprove of them. I think that maybe you got your "fudge packed " a few times and feel guilty and that's why you're so bitter abd fearful. And get over this reproduction nonsense...the world needs more people? Only people who are going to have children should get married and have sex? You have time to redeem youself before the lights go out. It's your legacy.

grazeem Loc: Arizona

Old roy limps, because he skinned his shin, on the bottom of the men's room stall, whilst tappin his foot, into the next stall.

The Progressive Patriot

grazeem wrote:

Old roy limps, because he skinned his shin, on the bottom of the men's room stall, whilst tappin his foot, into the next stall.

ROTF-LAMFO!! (Roy probably wont gert that)

oldroy Loc: Western Kansas (No longer in hiding)

TheChardo wrote:

grazeem wrote:

Old roy limps, because he skinned his shin, on the bottom of the men's room stall, whilst tappin his foot, into the next stall.

ROTF-LAMFO!! (Roy probably wont gert that)

I am old but not so "limp" that I can't understand something like that. I never did understand that one till the Dems went after the Repubs who were just a bit "fey".

Do you really believe we should have sexual "equality" in every respect? I suppose you have packed something or other. How was it? I just don't think I could do anything like that and sure don't think I would like anything else like that.

The Progressive Patriot

oldroy wrote:

quote=TheChardo quote=grazeem Old roy limps, bec... (show quote)

Yes Roy EQUALITY>>> What the f#@$$# is the problem??

oilfieldDave Loc: From AK live in WA

oldroy wrote:

TheChardo wrote:

oldroy wrote:

TheChardo wrote:

While were on the subject of who can marry who, let me raise another issue. Intersexual people. You know that there are really more than just two sexes? OMG! You didnt! Its true, so the marriage issue is even more complex that you knew. Intersexual people, born with characteristics of both male and female are a reality. This condition can range from subtle hormonal and chromosomal abnormalities to outward physical signs that the person is not clearly male or female. Traditionally, the medical response has been to channel these unusual but real people into being a male or female. This has been done medically, psychologically and surgically . One problem is that we, and the medical community have a poor understanding of the consequences of this approach. There may be implications related to trans-sexuality , gender confusion and other mental health issues, as well as same sex attractions.
Now before I go on, its important that I say that I am in no way saying that gayness can or should be explained in biological terms. Gay and lesbian people should be afforded all of the rights and respect of straight people regardless of biology. The point is only that SOME same sex attractions MAY be related to intersexual issues. There is so much that we dont understand.
Having said that, I want to call attention to the fact, that there is a growing community of intersexual people, who reject the societal insistence that they identify as either male or female. In addition, there is a movement within the medical and mental health fields that supports that view and no longer rush to find a medical or surgical cure . Many now believe that there are as many as five different sexes-varying degrees of maleness and femaleness- and that those people should be allowed to be who and what they are without society putting a traditional gender label on .
So, that brings us back to the marriage issue and who can marry who because, as the intersexual movement grows, this will surly come up. What will happen when an intersexual person, who refused to be pigeon holed into a traditional sexual category , wants to marry a male, or a female. What will happen when someone who is more male than female wants to marry someone who more female than male, but on some level they are of the same sex. You may laugh and ridicule this now, but mark my word, the issue will come up and it will have to be dealt with. I submit to you that the only solution is to allow any two people who want to marry each other to do so. Whats the big deal?

While were on the subject of who can marry who, l... (show quote)

Let me tell you my story about same sex and maybe you can see why I don't care to see them marrying. When I got out of high school I was so naive that I didn't know about things like that. Oh yes, in 1950 there were lots of us. Anyway I noticed in a 5 hr. class I had that this really talented piano player always sat beside me and spent too much time just staring at my crotch area. Finally I talked to some older people and learned that Johnny was what they called qu**r back in that day. I could see that for how he acted in that class. Finally, he invited me to his dorm room and tried to put some moves on me. Not knowing how nasty I was being I promised him that if he ever tried that again I would beat him to death, probably. We became fast friends after that and he just stayed to his "girl friend" who was his saxophone player in his combo. They even tried to get a marriage license in about 1957 and in that part of Kansas at that time in history were lucky to get out of the courthouse in one piece.

I well remember the 1950s through the 1970s when closet doors were still closed. I keep trying to imagine why the activist homosexuals had to try to force themselves on other people when they had been so able to get along in their closets. I still wonder about that. I don't know about your intersexuals at all. Do they have enough of one or the other to reproduce? I don't know. However, I am so inexperienced with homosexuals that I have had many good friends who turned out to be that way. Most of them married women, that is those who were male looking. I really became sick of the whole thing when my sons came to the house talking about fudge packers. I heard that one for a long time before someone explained it to me. How do they reproduce that way, anyway?

Man, I am so old fashioned that I just don't understand much of that kind of living. I never could figure out what the target of pissing contests among homes got out of sitting on the ground and being pissed upon. However, I have seen too many videos of this happening to not believe it does. I was pissed on once and beat the hell out of that kid.

Ok it is now your turn to let my knowledge about aberrant sex to expand.

quote=TheChardo While were on the subject of who... (show quote)

You start out by saying that you're going to explain why you're against gay marriage. However, all you do is ramble about some experiences that you had in the 50's This explains nothing except maybe that to harbor some bad feeling about gays. Please either discuss the issue or stop wasting peoples time . Now you want me to discuss my experiences. Maybe you want to get off on that? Forget about it. What I've done is also irrelevant to the topic. It's not about me, or you.

quote=oldroy quote=TheChardo While were on the ... (show quote)

I don't like to do this but one of my main reasons against same sex marriage is that I just don't understand how "fudge packers" and their counter parts of the other "sex" reproduce without some real help. We were built to reproduce one way and they don't do things that way. When we talk about marriage we are talking about something that it sickens me to think about same sexers doing.

That packer thing is something that I leaned early in the present century when I finally asked my sons (early 20's) what they meant by that term.

I think the whole same sex "marriage" thing is something that some activists have to push. I have talked with some of those people who liked living outside the closet and felt like they were accepted in their neighborhoods because they tried to live like everyone else and didn't try to push for what they couldn't get. I guess they were in the closet and still didn't know it.

quote=TheChardo quote=oldroy quote=TheChardo Wh... (show quote)

Chardo, dude, you are going off the deep end with your attempts to portrait a homophobic. It is kind of funny, tho.

I still think marriage is something that should not be a part of the government. Its very personal. For that matter, so is the idea of one getting their fudge packed. These are things that go on behind closed doors between consenting adults, and should have zero place in the government.

If two (why not three, four, five, etc.,) consenting adults want to shack up, get married, whatever, so be it. If any children are born of these unions, both parents should be liable for the costs of raising the child(ren), and after 5 years, all assets should become community property, where if they split, the assets are split up equally.
This would be the only place where the government should be involved, in assuring the children are safe and taken care of, and property is separated equally.

Otherwise, as the gay activists claim, the government has no business in the bedroom. I agree.

grazeem Loc: Arizona

Oilfield Dave wrote:

Otherwise, as the gay activists claim, the government has no business in the bedroom. I agree.

As you say you don't want the government in your bedroom. Does that mean you are in favor of allowing abortions to go ahead, with no restrictions?