jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

I reading his most recent post asking others by cutting and pasting what he first asked me. He couldn't refute the scriptures I posted, only deflected and now I'm guessing he is asking others hoping for a reply he can refute.
Only problem that all of us Christians from different denominations believe the word of God the same and give him the same scriptures and replies. He really does not know what to do... He's losing it.

God Bless

Doc110 Loc: York PA

balmer,

Oh yea, . . . of little Protestant faith . . . "Not finding, Sola Scriptura in the Bible" ?

To be deep in the Bible, is to cease to be Protestant.
Cardinal John Henry Newman, Apologist and Former Anglican Bishop

Three more to go "Not finding, Sola Scriptura in the Bible" ?


7. Old Testament Jews Did Not Believe in Sola Scriptura


To give two examples from the Old Testament itself:

a. Ezra, a priest and scribe, studied the Jewish law and taught it to Israel, and his authority was binding under pain of imprisonment, banishment, loss of goods, and even death
cf. Ezra 7:26

Whoever does not obey the law of your God and the law of the king must surely be punished by death, banishment, confiscation of property, or imprisonment.
Ezra 7:26. (Note) The text of 7:12-26 is written in Aramaic.


b. In Nehemiah 8:3

Ezra reads the Law of Moses to the people in Jerusalem.

He read it aloud from daybreak till noon as he faced the square before the Water Gate in the presence of the men, women and others who could understand.

And all the people listened attentively to the Book of the Law.
Nehemiah 8:3

In verse Nehemiah 8:7

We find thirteen Levites who assisted Ezra and helped the people to understand the law.

The Levites—Jeshua, Bani, Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodiah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan and Pelaiah—instructed the people in the Law while the people were standing there.
Nehemiah 8:7


Much earlier, we find Levites exercising the same function
cf. 2 Chronicles 17:8-9

With them were certain Levites—Shemaiah, Nethaniah, Zebadiah, Asahel, Shemiramoth, Jehonathan, Adonijah, Tobijah and Tob-Adonijah—and the priests Elishama and Jehoram. 9 They taught throughout Judah, taking with them the Book of the Law of the Lord; they went around to all the towns of Judah and taught the people.
2 Chronicles 17:8-9


So the people did indeed understand the law cf. Nehemiah 8:8, 12

But not without much assistance — not merely upon hearing.

They read from the Book of the Law of God, making it clear and giving the meaning so that the people understood what was being read.
Nehemiah 8:8

Then all the people went away to eat and drink, to send portions of food and to celebrate with great joy, because they now understood the words that had been made known to them.
Nehemiah 8:12

Likewise, the Bible is not altogether clear in and of itself but requires the aid of teachers who are more familiar with biblical styles and Hebrew idiom, background, context, exegesis and cross-reference, hermeneutical principles, original languages, etc.

The Old Testament, then, teaches about a binding Tradition and need for authoritative interpreters, as does the New Testament.

With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand. 34 He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.
Mark 4:33–34

Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him
Acts 8:30–31

Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things.
2 Peter 1:20

He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters.

His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
2 Peter 3:16


Doc110

Doc110 Loc: York PA

balmer,


Oh yea, . . . of little Protestant faith . . . "Not finding, Sola Scriptura in the Bible" ?

To be deep in the Bible, is to cease to be Protestant.
Cardinal John Henry Newman, Apologist and Former Anglican Bishop



8. Ephesians 4 Refutes the Protestant "Proof Text," of not finding, Sola Scriptura in the Bible" ?

"All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
2 Timothy 3:16–17


All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

So that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 3:16–17


This passage doesn’t teach formal sufficiency, which excludes a binding, authoritative role for Tradition and Church.

Protestants extrapolate onto the text what isn’t there.

If we look at the overall context of this passage, we can see that Paul makes reference to oral Tradition three times, cf. 2 Tim. 1:13–14; 2:2; 3:14.

And to use an analogy, let’s examine a similar passage:


Paul teaches on the pattern of sound teaching 2 Timothy 1:13
What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.

Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.
2 Timothy 1:13


And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others.
2 Timothy 2:2


But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it,
2 Timothy 3:14


Paul speaks of the gifts, the cunning of men and craftiness in deceitful ways, Ephesians 4:11–15

"And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,

until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine,

by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles.

Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ"
Ephesians 4:11–15


If 2 Timothy 3 proves the sole sufficiency of Scripture, then, by analogy.

Ephesians 4 would likewise prove the sufficiency of pastors and teachers for the attainment of Christian perfection.


In Ephesians 4, the Christian believer is equipped, built up, brought into unity and mature manhood, and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the teaching function of the Church.


This is a far stronger statement of the perfecting of the saints than 2 Timothy 3, yet it does not even mention Biblical Scripture.


So if all non-scriptural elements are excluded in 2 Timothy

Then, by analogy, Scripture would logically have to be excluded in Ephesians.

It is far more reasonable to recognize that the absence of one or more elements in one passage does not mean that they are nonexistent.

The Church and Scripture are both equally necessary and important for teaching.


Doc110

Doc110 Loc: York PA

TexaCan,


Oh yea, . . . of little Protestant faith . . . "Not finding, Sola Scriptura in the Bible" ?

To be deep in the Bible, is to cease to be Protestant.
Cardinal John Henry Newman, Apologist and Former Anglican Bishop


9. Paul Casually Assumes That His Passed-Down Tradition Is Infallible and Binding


If Paul wasn’t assuming that, he would have been commanding his followers to adhere to a mistaken doctrine.


Paul writes:

"If any one refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed."
2 Thessalonians 3:14


Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter.

Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed.
2 Thessalonians 3:14


"Take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them."
Romans 16:17


I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
Romans 16:17


He didn’t write about "the pretty-much, mostly, largely true but not infallible doctrine which you have been taught."


Doc110

Doc110 Loc: York PA

TexaCan,


Oh yea, . . . of little Protestant faith . . . "Not finding, Sola Scriptura in the Bible" ?

To be deep in the Bible, is to cease to be Protestant.
Cardinal John Henry Newman, Apologist and Former Anglican Bishop



8. Ephesians 4 Refutes the Protestant "Proof Text," of not finding, Sola Scriptura in the Bible" ?

"All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
2 Timothy 3:16–17


All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

So that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 3:16–17


This passage doesn’t teach formal sufficiency, which excludes a binding, authoritative role for Tradition and Church.

Protestants extrapolate onto the text what isn’t there.

If we look at the overall context of this passage, we can see that Paul makes reference to oral Tradition three times, cf. 2 Tim. 1:13–14; 2:2; 3:14.

And to use an analogy, let’s examine a similar passage:


Paul teaches on the pattern of sound teaching 2 Timothy 1:13
What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.

Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.
2 Timothy 1:13


And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others.
2 Timothy 2:2


But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it,
2 Timothy 3:14


Paul speaks of the gifts, the cunning of men and craftiness in deceitful ways, Ephesians 4:11–15

"And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,

until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine,

by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles.

Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ"
Ephesians 4:11–15


If 2 Timothy 3 proves the sole sufficiency of Scripture, then, by analogy.

Ephesians 4 would likewise prove the sufficiency of pastors and teachers for the attainment of Christian perfection.


In Ephesians 4, the Christian believer is equipped, built up, brought into unity and mature manhood, and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the teaching function of the Church.


This is a far stronger statement of the perfecting of the saints than 2 Timothy 3, yet it does not even mention Biblical Scripture.


So if all non-scriptural elements are excluded in 2 Timothy

Then, by analogy, Scripture would logically have to be excluded in Ephesians.

It is far more reasonable to recognize that the absence of one or more elements in one passage does not mean that they are nonexistent.

The Church and Scripture are both equally necessary and important for teaching.


Doc110

Doc110 Loc: York PA

balmer,

Oh yea, . . . of little Protestant faith . . . "Not finding, Sola Scriptura in the Bible" ?

To be deep in the Bible, is to cease to be Protestant.
Cardinal John Henry Newman, Apologist and Former Anglican Bishop


9. Paul Casually Assumes That His Passed-Down Tradition Is Infallible and Binding


If Paul wasn’t assuming that, he would have been commanding his followers to adhere to a mistaken doctrine.


Paul writes:

"If any one refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed."
2 Thessalonians 3:14


Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter.

Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed.
2 Thessalonians 3:14


"Take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them."
Romans 16:17


I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
Romans 16:17


He didn’t write about "the pretty-much, mostly, largely true but not infallible doctrine which you have been taught."


Doc110

Radiance3

Zemirah, here are the reasons why Catholic and Protestant Ten Commandments differ.

Quote Zemira"The difference between any Vatican approved Bible and the Bibles used by the rest of the Christian world is in Roman Catholicism's corrupted version of the Ten Commandments. Roman Catholicism changed "The Ten Commandments" by stealing/removing the 2nd commandment (thereby incurring a permanent curse upon themselves)."

Your accusation Zemira is WRONG! WRONG! The Catholic Church did not corrupt, remove, steal the 2nd Commandment. Here are the reasons why.

The Catholic Church has been entrusted by Christ thru Saint Peter, to create, to preach, to proclaim and to continue the Gospel. The Catholic Church was given that authority. Thus the Catholic Church has the Scriptures, Sacred Traditions, and Magisterium.These authoritative bodies are carried through the order of Succession of the Church hierarchy. Saint Peter was the 1st Pope.

Jesus Christ Established a Visible Church On Earth
by Fritz Tuttle
Every Christian believes that Jesus Christ established and sustains a community of faith, hope and love for all believers. This community we call His Church. The Church that Christ founded is the Catholic Church which has a formal earthly structure established by Christ and which continues under His authority and protection.

Colossian 1:25
Of this Church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,

712598
Protestants claim the Bible is the only rule of faith, meaning that it contains all of the material one needs for theology.

Catholics need apostolic tradition, or the Church’s magisterium (teaching authority) to help one understand it.

In the Protestant view, the whole of Christian truth is found within the Bible’s pages.
Anything extraneous to the Bible is simply non-authoritative, unnecessary, or wrong—and may well hinder one in coming to God.

Catholics, on the other hand, recognize that the Bible does not endorse this view and that, in fact, it is repudiated in Scripture.

The true "rule of faith"—as expressed in the Bible itself—is Scripture plus apostolic tradition, as manifested in the living teaching authority of the Catholic Church, to which were entrusted the oral teachings of Jesus and the apostles, along with the authority to interpret Scripture correctly.

In the Second Vatican Council’s document on divine revelation, Dei Verbum (Latin:
"The Word of God"), the relationship between Tradition and Scripture is explained: "Hence there exists a close connection and communication between sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture.
For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end.

For sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit.

To the successors of the apostles, sacred Tradition, hands on in its full purity God’s word, which was entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit.

Thus, by the light of the Spirit of truth, these successors can in their preaching preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known.

Consequently, it is not from sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed.

Therefore, both sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same devotion and reverence."

Beautiful art such as a statue or a painting in a Catholic Church is used.

In the same way Evangelicals use beautiful music (which is also a form of art). We do not worship the art itself as is described in Psalms 97:7.

The art is a vehicle of expression to bring out an inner feeling - to honor and glorify God.
Catholics worship Jesus through art just as faithful Evangelicals worship through music.

This is not exalting foreign gods (Psm 97:7).

It is reverencing the One True God. We don't think we should hold disdain for visual art
while having such respect for audio art (music).

Statues helped the illiterate people. Statues help people about the history.
For the first 1600 years of Christianity, most people couldn't read or write. Every stained-glass window and statue in medieval Churches told a story. Illiterate people could look at the stained -glass pictures on the windows of the Churches and understand the story.
So not only were the statues and paintings beautiful and reverent, but they were also very functional.

They told the Bible story and the Priest could point to them during his homilies.

Statues and stained glass were, for them, teaching tools and reminders. If we walk around any classic sanctuary and we'll see the statues, each saint holding his symbol.

A well-trained Christian could learn the stories of all those saints, and pass them along to his children, even if he couldn't read.

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

Nothing administration can do to bother Doc110, he has to live with himself wondering why he has an emptiness, void, and thirst that only the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob through the grace of our Lord Jesus can fill.

Let's report him to God for mercy, and conviction of the Holy Spirit that the truth of God's word will be revealed.

God Bless

Doc110 Loc: York PA

TexaCan

Oh yea, . . . of little Protestant faith . . . "Not finding, Sola Scriptura in the Bible" ?

To be deep in the Bible, is to cease to be Protestant.
Cardinal John Henry Newman, Apologist and Former Anglican Bishop.


So the protestant doctrine Ax has fallen.

TexaCan, Ax, it is a euphemism, but in you're womanly perverted-twisted mind, you have taken it personally and not in the spirit intended.

TexaCan, Again shame on you shame, shame, shame . . .



10. Sola Scriptura Is a Circular Position


a. When all is said and done, Protestants who accept sola scriptura as their rule of faith appeal to the Bible.


b. If they are asked why one should believe in their particular denominational teaching, rather than another, each will appeal to "the Bible’s clear teaching."


c. Often they act as if they have no tradition that guides their own interpretation.


A good modern example;
This is similar to people on two sides of a constitutional debate both saying, "Well, we go by what the Constitution says, whereas you guys don’t."

The U.S. Constitution, like the Bible, is not sufficient in and of itself to resolve differing interpretations.

Judges and courts are necessary, and their decrees are legally binding.


The Supreme Court rulings cannot be overturned except by a future ruling or Constitutional Amendment.

In any event, there is always a final appeal that settles the matter.


d. But Protestantism lacks this biblical authority, because it appeals to a logically self-defeating principle and a book "the Bible," that must be interpreted by human beings.


e. Obviously, given the divisions in Protestantism, simply "going to the Bible" hasn’t worked.


f. In the end, a person has no assurance or certainty in the Protestant system.


g. They can only "go to the Bible" themselves and perhaps come up with another doctrinal version of some disputed doctrine to add to the list.


h. One either believes there is one truth, in any given theological dispute (whatever it is) or adopts a relativist or indifferentist position, where contradictions are fine or the doctrine is so "minor" that differences "don’t matter."


i. But the Bible doesn’t teach that whole categories of doctrines are "minor" and that Christians freely and joyfully can disagree in such a fashion.


j. Denominationalism and divisions are vigorously condemned with-in Protestantism. History teaches that sectarianism and doctrinal strife have been ever present in killing and death.


k. The only conclusion we can reach from the Bible is what we call the "three-legged stool":


m. The Bible, The True Church, and Church Magisterium Biblical Tradition are all necessary to arrive at truth.


n. If you knock out any leg of a three-legged stool, The Bible, Old and New Testaments, The Church Doctrines, Church Magisterium Infallible Teaching, and Biblical oral and Traditions it collapses.


Sola Scriptura Is a Circular Position And "It Can-Not be found," in the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura in the Bible" ?


Doc110

Radiance3

===============
quote jack: "Let's report him to God for mercy, and conviction of the Holy Spirit that the truth of God's word will be revealed."

The work of demon.
Source: Sola Scriptura

Rose42

Doc you've refuted nothing. What you have posted is a lot of false information and you still fail to refute sola scriptura. You haven't addressed what's in Psalm 19 or Tim 3:16-17. To deny it is to deny God's word.

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 that the man of God may be adequate--equipped for every good work."

Doc110 Loc: York PA

balmer,

Oh yea, . . . of little Protestant faith . . . "Not finding, Sola Scriptura in the Bible" ?

To be deep in the Bible, is to cease to be Protestant.
Cardinal John Henry Newman, Apologist and Former Anglican Bishop.


So the protestant doctrine Ax has fallen.

balmer, I'd say that the notion of "Sola Scriptura," It is a self-defeatist argumentation position and "It, Can-Not be found," in the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura in the Bible" ?



10. Sola Scriptura Is a Circular Position


a. When all is said and done, Protestants who accept sola scriptura as their rule of faith appeal to the Bible.


b. If they are asked why one should believe in their particular denominational teaching, rather than another, each will appeal to "the Bible’s clear teaching."


c. Often they act as if they have no tradition that guides their own interpretation.


A good modern example;
This is similar to people on two sides of a constitutional debate both saying, "Well, we go by what the Constitution says, whereas you guys don’t."

The U.S. Constitution, like the Bible, is not sufficient in and of itself to resolve differing interpretations.

Judges and courts are necessary, and their decrees are legally binding.


The Supreme Court rulings cannot be overturned except by a future ruling or Constitutional Amendment.

In any event, there is always a final appeal that settles the matter.


d. But Protestantism lacks this biblical authority, because it appeals to a logically self-defeating principle and a book "the Bible," that must be interpreted by human beings.


e. Obviously, given the divisions in Protestantism, simply "going to the Bible" hasn’t worked.


f. In the end, a person has no assurance or certainty in the Protestant system.


g. They can only "go to the Bible" themselves and perhaps come up with another doctrinal version of some disputed doctrine to add to the list.


h. One either believes there is one truth, in any given theological dispute (whatever it is) or adopts a relativist or indifferentist position, where contradictions are fine or the doctrine is so "minor" that differences "don’t matter."


i. But the Bible doesn’t teach that whole categories of doctrines are "minor" and that Christians freely and joyfully can disagree in such a fashion.


j. Denominationalism and divisions are vigorously condemned with-in Protestantism. History teaches that sectarianism and doctrinal strife have been ever present in killing and death.


k. The only conclusion we can reach from the Bible is what we call the "three-legged stool":


m. The Bible, The True Church, and Church Magisterium Biblical Tradition are all necessary to arrive at truth.


n. If you knock out any leg of a three-legged stool, The Bible, Old and New Testaments, The Church Doctrines, Church Magisterium Infallible Teaching, and Biblical oral and Traditions it collapses.


Sola Scriptura Is a Circular Position And "It Can-Not be found," in the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura in the Bible" ?

I would also say that Jack's and that you the school-boy cheerleader and school-girl cheerleader TexaCan have driven right off the emptiness of the Protestant Cliff reformation.

And the blind OPP religious forum readers are the only blind followers, following blind guides, instead of falling in a ditch, it's driving over a cliff.


balmer, you live in a protestant fairy-tail theology and doctrinal understanding.

a. A circular man-Made doctrine, a false biblical theology.

b. A religiously constructed independent biblical (" A self-interpretive personal belief system") that is out-side the Catholic faith, Bible-Church-Magisterium infallible teaching.

c. All thAt Martin Luther, John Calvin and Zwingli and other Protestant reformers have constructed "Man-Made" Biblical revisionism and Modern day Protestant confusion Relativism thinking.


Doc110

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Radiance,

We are not speaking of the little "c" catholic universal church that Jesus Christ founded, and to which I belong.

I am addressing the Roman Catholic Institution founded by Constantine after 313 A.D.

Four thousand years ago, when the Ten Commandments were given to Moses on his way from Egypt to the "Promised Land," with a forty year trek in the wilderness yet to complete, do you believe he had life size statues to educate their children?

Two thousand years ago, when Jesus and the children of his age were growing to adulthood in Nazareth, do you believe those children were unable to learn the Holy Scriptures without being provided statues by the Pharisees and Sadducees in disobedience to the Commandments?

"All those saints" were pagan statues, glossed over with the names of Christians, but still in disobedience to the Commandments of God.

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

Hey Brother, they are confounded by truth, the living word of God. Cults cannot defend against the word of God.

Doc110 is defeated, How does Satan get power over people? He simply entices them to commit sin. Once they have committed sin, he accuses them day and night. They get a bad conscience and lose their peace, joy, power, and boldness as we have read through Doc110 and Radiance3 replies their joy and peace are stolen.

God's word does not
come back void and they will not rest, with the truth of God's word cast upon them.

Your wizard of Oz analogy was fitting and humorous. I applied it to the pope (catholic god on earth) anything he says or speaks, the followers must agree with and accept for fear of the thunder and lightening bolts coming from the Vatican. But the word of God devours the popes false speech, pulls back the curtain to see the pope a puppet of the father of liars.

We all appreciate the many scriptures and verses you gave Doc110 and Radiance3, and not allowing frustration to overtake you.

God Bless

Radiance3

===============
Defeated? Well here I am, the "little Catholic girl". What do you want to know?