PeterS

I was asked to start a thread on the existence of god and the resurrection of Christ so am doing so. My contention is that there is only anecdotal proof for god and there is no actual evidence for the resurrection of Christ. All comments are welcome.

Super Dave Loc: Realville, USA

If you don't see evidence of God, you may be in a coma. Look around.

As far as concrete evidence of Christ as the son of God, we have something better. Faith.

If you can't see the glory of God in all of the wonder and vastness of the Universe, chances are you wouldn't see evidence of Christ if He appeared right in front of you and cured all of your ailments.

popparod Loc: Somewhere else.

Read once that life was a battle between good and evil
akin to two large dogs Living inside of you.
The one that wins is the one you feed the most.

Super Dave Loc: Realville, USA

I see some limited truth in that.

Evil is the absence of good, just as dark is the absence of light. God is the source of good, and Hell is a place without God.

PeterS

I take it you don't know what anecdotal evidence means and if Christ were to appear before me and cure all my aliments that would be something wouldn't it since I have so many. If only I were Donald Trump and a specimen so perfect as to be the most perfect that had ever walked the earth (wasn't that what his doctor said) then I wouldn't need a god to heal me.

And I have to ask--do you know nothing about evidence that is based on the irrational (faith) and evidence that is based on the rational (reason) or would you just go off into space by pointing yourself at a star thinking that's all one needed to do to get there?

iFrank Loc: San Antonio

If you don't mind me asking, who asked you to start this thread. This has peaked my interest since your Faith in God neither waxes nor wanes.

Super Dave Loc: Realville, USA

Some of the most rational people in history had faith in God. I could quote the founding fathers as examples.

You have faith too. Your faith is in men, mine is in God.

I find mine much more rational.

PeterS

None the less--to have faith in a supernatural being is irrational. This from the definition of irrationalism: a system emphasizing intuition, instinct, feeling,or faith rather than reason or holding that the universe is governed by irrational forces. Note, that this isn't a harsh or negative definition but simply the philosophy one embraces by embracing the supernatural.

If you look at someone like Thomas Jefferson, he viewed Christ as one of the greatest moral teachers ever but he didn't view him as a god or divine. Jefferson believed that god got the ball rolling and than got out of the way. As for my faith, if I have any it is in reason, not man, because it's reason that allows man to create and control the world around him.

PeterS

Gaconservative74.

iFrank Loc: San Antonio

Thanks for your honesty, just wondering.

PeterS

No problem, I PM'ed him to tell him I started the thread. I've never debated him so it will be nice to debate someone new...

gaconservative74

If you don't mind, I would like to deal with just one issue at a time. So, let's talk about the existence of God.

Let me give some clarification to what the evidence I intend to present will and will will not prove. My arguments for the existence of God will present at least compelling arguments that there is a maximally power, maximally knowledgeable, timeless, spaceless, immaterial being that created the universe.

I will say at the front of this thread that I am a Christian, but I am not arguing the Christian faith here so it would pointless for anyone arguing against the existence of God to quote the bible or the "immorality" of the Christian God.

Now, I am no astrophysicist, or cosmologist, or have a Ph.D. In philosophy, but I will do the best I can presenting the evidence that confirms what my faith has already led me to believe.

Side note, I realize that many will argue that I have biased my research and read into anything that I have studied and found the answers that I "wanted". That may be partially true, but that would be true for anyone on either side of the argument because we are all fallible. I have done my best to be as objective as humanly possible.

All that being said, I will start here:

I will first deal with the premise that everything that begins to exist must have a cause. So, if we look at the the universe, most scientists believe that there was a beginning to the universe, most call it the Big Bang.

And since the universe began. It is therefore understood that there must be a cause and that cause must be a causeless being that caused the universe. This causeless being would also have to be timeless, maximally powerful and immaterial as "it" caused the universe out of nothing.

There are theories that attempt to prove that the universe is infinite, such as M theory, but from my understanding, this theory is unprovable for many reasons and which has been said by somebody on OPP, the math needs a lot of work. I will also say that Lawrence Krauss and Richard Dawkins both feel as though it is most probable, based off of what science tells us that the universe has a beginning.

Also on the issue of actual infinite universes we could look at paradoxal issues with that.

I will pause here but will pick up as my time permits and arguments arise.

gaconservative74

You and I do have faith, but Peter does not. God doesn't expect us to be blind to what is around us and we are commanded to always be ready to give account for what we believe in, and as far as Christ is concerned there is evidence that He rose from the dead. I would like to try to argue the existence of God before we even attempt to look at Christ though, as I feel this is the first hurdle that an atheist must traverse.dealing with both at the same time when neither is believed sort of muddies the waters

gaconservative74

I also have to add that if we don't have good reasons to believe what we do, then why do we believe it? I believe that reason is paramount in being a Christian. Without it we end up going off the deep end cause we think we hear God telling us to get a roll of quarters and take arsenic cause we got a ride to catch on halebops comet, or fly a 747 into the World Trade Center for 70 virgins or whatever, you get the picture.

PeterS

If you are a naturalist, as I am, the universe serves as the bowl of soup that creates life. If you are a super-naturalist what purpose does the universe serve?



You can, but I view the bible as a book written by man as are all of our religious texts. The question becomes, outside of faith, how do you prove the bible inspired by god.




On that point I would argue that the best evidence points to a multiverse where each universe in finite within it. It's the simplest model that answers were we came from, and how our universe behaves--unless of course a supernatural god decided to step in for some reason to create a universe himself.

Below is a good article on multiverses:

http://www.space.com/31465-is-our-universe-just-one-of-many-in-a-multiverse.html