Should the seperation of Church and State remain absolute (Page 100): Not that easy, my friend. Molsons or nothing. Agreed?

rumitoid

Raylan Wolfe wrote:

So then we all finally agree the separation of church and is for the benefit of the American people! Now you can pray and I'll open another beer!

Not that easy, my friend. Molsons or nothing. Agreed?

Raylan Wolfe Loc: earth

Molsons ?

rumitoid wrote:

Not that easy, my friend. Molsons or nothing. Agreed?

rhomin57 Loc: Far Northern CA.

Do you really read that as he's talking about Christians as a whole? This is what happens when you are "Non-believing in anything. Thomas Jefferson is commenting of the ignorance of the non-believers within the Gospels: as you read them! As I've said before, I have the Jefferson Bible, it is available at Amazon if you couldn't bring yourself to walk into a Christian book store.

Oh, forgot to ask for an update: Have you won any Christians over to your side yet? You said if you can get just 1 to come over to your side (or something like that), your mission would be complete.

Raylan Wolfe wrote:

"We discover in the Gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, of fanaticism and fabrication." Thomas Jefferson

Raylan Wolfe Loc: earth

Evidently you missed this one; "Question even with boldness the existence of God; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

Time to take off the blindfold!

rhomin57 wrote:

Do you really read that as he's talking about Chri... (show quote)

Absolom_Absolom

Raylan Wolfe wrote:

Evidently you missed this one; "Question even with boldness the existence of God; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

Time to take off the blindfold!

I think Jefferson here is stating a PERFECTLY Christian principle. In many places in the Bible God encourages those who believe in Him to prove Him (ie. Malachi 3:10) Or as stated in 1 Peter 3:15--

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and be ready always to give an answer to every man who asketh you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear."

NOTE: Knowing how trolls like Raylan Wolfe like to twist words to mean other things, the word "fear" in the Middle English of the King James era DID NOT necessarily mean what we take it to mean today-- that is being afraid all the time. The word could also mean "to be in awe" and to "act respectfully". This latter definition fits the context better.

I don't know of a single credible historian who has ever suggested that Thomas Jefferson was an "atheist" He may not have believed in things like the virgin birth or even the divinity of Christ, but he DID believe in God. He was by most accounts a Deist. Indeed here are some OTHER quotes by Thomas Jefferson that Raylan Wolfe probably isn't familiar with:

"Almighty God hath created the mind free. All attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens...are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion...No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship or ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion. I know but one code of morality for men whether acting singly or collectively." -- Thomas Jefferson (Ouch! Raylan!~~ haha!)

oooh and here is aq double ouch for him:

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?" -- Thomas Jefferson

(dang it boy! I can almost see Raylan Wolfe withering away like the Wicked Witch of the East when Dorothy splashed her with that bucket of water, or like a vampire under the rays of the sun~~ hahaha!)

And perhaps my all-time FAVOURITE Jefferson quote:

"Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever." -- T.J. once again.

Gosh! Wonder what Raylan would make of these???

;)

A_A

Raylan Wolfe Loc: earth

Fact: Jefferson was a deist, he believed that a god created man and left them to fend for themselves, and he stated several times that he did not believe in the Christian God!

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." Thomas Jefferson

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Religion/Jefferson.htm

Get over it!

Absolom_Absolom wrote:

I think Jefferson here is stating a PERFECTLY Chri... (show quote)

larry

Absolom_Absolom wrote:
Yes, this is the historical facts. I submit that the subject was fairly well provided for by the First Amendment. But that there ought to be some provisio prohibiting the state to tax the church or to be able to use the status of "tax exemption" (ie. 501(c)3 status) as a means to bully churches into silence with regard to large social and political issues such as a******n.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Significantly, not all Christian Churches conform to the same standards of behavior or belief. This is a big problem in defining what is really Christian. The Roman Catholic empire has different ideas of what is right and wrong from the Protestant Church conclave. Unfortunately, the RC empire has assumed authority not designated in the bible, but makes some of it's claims based on previous Pagan rites. This has always caused contention in the Christian community. Before an issue of Religion can be discussed, the main disagreements in practice would have to be ironed out.

There are some denominations that use other than the Bible as authority references, These have always been questionable, just as several different Bible T***slations have been.

However, this present Administration does not believe anything related to Christianity is valid, and insists on either the secular religion of evolution or in the worst case Atheism is the driving force of humanity, and only those presently in power can decide the forward thrust of society.

In reality, the original foundation documents of the United States tried to take into consideration all viewpoints, and is a reasonable compromise to various beliefs. The exclusion of religion as a dominant force is the only way that a sensible people can use the standards of religion in their thinking without it being forced upon anyone.

Any one is entitled to use their belief to modify or accept any law proposed, as long as it is not evident in it's body politic.
The common sense of individuals should be attuned to their desires and the aggravations their desires may impose on other dissimilar believers. This makes the image of the nation to seem both for and against religion. The nation cannot impose any religious faction on our society without causing wholesale animosity from the ones that do not agree in the precepts of that religion. Religion should never be a forced posture of society, but it should also never be forgotten in the practice of government. The character of the United States has been built upon the concept of a God Designed and Directed society. It is to contain and usually does all the compassionate and rigorous precepts as outlined by manifest and supreme Godly creator.

It is this concept that seems to have confused some of our leaders, and they are attempting to change the direction of the nation into a Godless, atheistic entity. All Atheistic societies have been cruel and heartless not having any formal moral base. If this thrust continues in this country, we will see some imposing catastrophes befalling us because of our disregard for the creator. The Word of God clearly tell us in it's prophetic writings the end result.

Raylan Wolfe Loc: earth

All the Presidents of the past have endorsed the separation of church and state, and for good reason! Get over it!

larry wrote:

Absolom_Absolom wrote:
Yes, this is the historical facts. I submit that the subject was fairly well provided for by the First Amendment. But that there ought to be some provisio prohibiting the state to tax the church or to be able to use the status of "tax exemption" (ie. 501(c)3 status) as a means to bully churches into silence with regard to large social and political issues such as a******n.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Significantly, not all Christian Churches conform to the same standards of behavior or belief. This is a big problem in defining what is really Christian. The Roman Catholic empire has different ideas of what is right and wrong from the Protestant Church conclave. Unfortunately, the RC empire has assumed authority not designated in the bible, but makes some of it's claims based on previous Pagan rites. This has always caused contention in the Christian community. Before an issue of Religion can be discussed, the main disagreements in practice would have to be ironed out.

There are some denominations that use other than the Bible as authority references, These have always been questionable, just as several different Bible T***slations have been.

However, this present Administration does not believe anything related to Christianity is valid, and insists on either the secular religion of evolution or in the worst case Atheism is the driving force of humanity, and only those presently in power can decide the forward thrust of society.

In reality, the original foundation documents of the United States tried to take into consideration all viewpoints, and is a reasonable compromise to various beliefs. The exclusion of religion as a dominant force is the only way that a sensible people can use the standards of religion in their thinking without it being forced upon anyone.

Any one is entitled to use their belief to modify or accept any law proposed, as long as it is not evident in it's body politic.
The common sense of individuals should be attuned to their desires and the aggravations their desires may impose on other dissimilar believers. This makes the image of the nation to seem both for and against religion. The nation cannot impose any religious faction on our society without causing wholesale animosity from the ones that do not agree in the precepts of that religion. Religion should never be a forced posture of society, but it should also never be forgotten in the practice of government. The character of the United States has been built upon the concept of a God Designed and Directed society. It is to contain and usually does all the compassionate and rigorous precepts as outlined by manifest and supreme Godly creator.

It is this concept that seems to have confused some of our leaders, and they are attempting to change the direction of the nation into a Godless, atheistic entity. All Atheistic societies have been cruel and heartless not having any formal moral base. If this thrust continues in this country, we will see some imposing catastrophes befalling us because of our disregard for the creator. The Word of God clearly tell us in it's prophetic writings the end result.

Absolom_Absolom wrote: br Yes, this is the histori... (show quote)

Absolom_Absolom

Raylan Wolfe wrote:

Fact: Jefferson was a deist, he believed that a god created man and left them to fend for themselves, and he stated several times that he did not believe in the Christian God!

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." Thomas Jefferson

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Religion/Jefferson.htm

Get over it!

I***t, I SAID he was a Deist -- you were the one trying to suggest he was an atheist!~~ hahaha!

Get over that! ~ haha!

A_A

Raylan Wolfe Loc: earth

Wrong again, get over it!

Absolom_Absolom wrote:

I***t, I SAID he was a Deist -- you were the one trying to suggest he was an atheist!~~ hahaha!

Get over that! ~ haha!

A_A

RetNavyCWO Loc: VA suburb of DC

Raylan Wolfe wrote:

The Old Testament vs the New Testament, the Articles of Confederation vs the U.S. Constitution all a matter of opinion! The fact remains that only one of these text's matters to all U.S. citizens and that is the one that keeps the church separate from the state!

:thumbup: :thumbup: