no propaganda please Loc: moon orbiting the third rock from the sun

You had asked for a list of people who had been arrested for speaking up about homosexual behavior. I provide a short list. There is no relationship between the two things rape and being arrested for speaking about the Bible WHAT'S YOUR POINT?

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

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condemn = sentence (someone) to a particular punishment, especially death.
"The sinners have been condemned to eternal damnation"

Then, according to your views, the "atoning" death of Christ had/has no value because God still "condemns" us for sinning. In a sense, you're saying that Jesus didn't die for our sins. Or, that He died to atone for the sins committed up to the time of His death. And, those sins committed after His death weren't atoned for and those sinners were newly "condemned."

Too, you're still stuck with homosexuality. Would, according to your theory and logic, God not "condemn" us for judging others? For committing adultery? For stealing? For gluttony? Would He not still "condemn" us for ALL of our sins?

As "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God," was a requirement for Jesus' atoning death, that you would want to try to add your own condemnation seems irrelevant, immaterial and beside the point. That's, unless, you think you're speaking AS God. In which case, you're committing blasphemy. You're putting yourself on equal footing as God by your judgments and comdemnations of fellow sinners. You're no better or worse than any homosexual or adultress or thief or murderer.

God may hate the sin, but He still loves the sinner. As "little Christs" (Christians), we're supposed to emulate Christ and His love. Your condemnations seem to discount any claims you profess toward your holiness.

The old saying, "You doth seem to protest too much," just might apply here. Often, someone who spends a lot of time running down someone else for a particular offense, is trying to hide their own guilt of committing the same or similar act.

You question why God would create a person to be homosexual. Why did He make the blind man, whom Jesus healed, blind since birth? Was it because the man's parents sinned? No. Was it because the man's grandparents sinned? No. Was it because He wanted people to see His power to heal shown through His Son, Jesus, by allowing the blind man see for the first time in his life.

You're free to disagree with my conclusion, but you don't have anything Biblical to back-up any other conclusion. Was Judas created to betray Jesus? Yes? No? Perhaps God does make some people homosexual. Why do bad things happen to good people? Why does He seem to allow sin to continue? Why didn't God take Satan out back in the Garden? Or, when Satan was tempting Jesus, why didn't Jesus just kill Satan?

Maybe homosexuals are here to teach us to love even those some of us may find hideous and repellant. Maybe they're here to teach us compassion. I've asked God to show me the answers, but so far, He hasn't reveled His answers to me. Then again, maybe He has and I've just not realized it, yet. Until .he dies, I'm going to keep on loving ALL sinners as myself and let God do ?His job with the condemnations.

It's well known that "God works in mysterious ways." Remember, He's known you since before you were even conceived. He knows, too, what your every word will be and what your every action will be, too. Given that He knows you so well, maybe, He's put them here just to bug the crap out of you.

Just saying......

Dummy Boy Loc: Michigan

Hetero crime and issues are a much bigger problem. When are people going to care about women's rights...not you.

RevRon

Sexual sin ties people together. It doesn't affect an individual, it affects all who are joined to that perversion. Did God destroy cities for gluttony? NO! For chocolate? NO! Homosexuality is a great perversion that not only affects the body, but the mind as well. Did God say he would give you a reprobate mind for eating to much chocolate? NO! It all starts with "CREATION", we were created to multiply and bring as many to the truth of Jesus Christ as possible. The union of one man and one woman under God makes them ONE! Are there levels, or degrees of sin? ABSOLUTELY!!! All sin is bad and against the Living God, but sexual sin joins many to the curses and perverse life away from God. Just as God's gifts have levels, sins against God have levels, and some that provoke Him to great anger. Choosing a lifestyle apart from the life God intended for you is much different than slipping out a cuss word that one hears daily from the world. Repentance is the key to your answer, if you walk in repentance, turning from your wrong He forgives, but if not He doesn't.

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

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Rev, I appreciate your taking the time to respond. You present some interesting points. However, I must disagree with you on there being "... levels, or degrees of sin." I refer you to Paul and James. The answer to this is two-fold. First, we find that in God’s eyes, any sin, no matter how “small” brings about God’s just condemnation on the sinner. Quoting from Deuteronomy in the Old Testament, Paul writes to the Galatians: “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them’” (Galatians 3:10). Similarly James writes: “For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all” (James 2:10). Then, there is the verse written by Paul, "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." (Romans 2:23; my emphasis on "all")

ANY sin, no matter what it is, separates us from God and brings His condemnation upon us (Isaiah 59:2). Any sin, no matter what it is, makes us dependant on the blood of Jesus for salvation (1 John 1:7). In this sense we find that all sins are equal in that they all destroy our relationship with God and bring about a need for reconciliation.

Regarding the sin(s) of Sodom, the text of Genesis 19 implies that God approved of Lot's behavior, even though he made an offer of his virgin daughters to be raped. This approval would have been extended to Lot's family as well. But, God apparently had a fierce anger directed at the other inhabitants of the town. He destroyed Sodom with fire and brimstone (sulfur) dumped from above.

According to the Bible, he killed all of the men and women of Sodom. It is surmised that the killing included all the innocent children, infants, newborns, etc. who lived in the city. This is one more example of a theme that runs throughout the Bible: transferring the punishment from guilty people to innocent people. Nowadays, this is called "scapegoating" and is condemned by all major religions. But, I digress.

What is/are the reason(s) as to why God destroyed the city. Allow me to offer the following observations and theories. The people of Sodom:

Engaged in consensual homosexual acts -- a same-sex orgy in this case. This is the belief of most conservative Christians. This option seems unlikely because:
Genesis 19:5 said that all of the men (and, as some preachers have said, perhaps all of the "people") of Sodom formed the mob outside Lot's house and demanded to "know" the strangers (in this case, angels). While the Bible does say "... ALL of the men ...," there was Lot; the lone heterosexual holdout.

Remember, according to the Bible, Lot had lived in the city for several years. It can be argued that, after that long a period of time, that Lot would've HAD to have known if ALL of the men in Sodom were homosexuals. If that were the case, as the Bible says, why would Lot have offered to sacrifice his daughters to the mob if ALL of the men were homosexual?

Finally, as noted above, if the men of Sodom were ALL homosexuals, there would be few if any children and widows in the city; as are mentioned elsewhere in Biblical references to Sodom.

They were uncharitable and abusive to strangers, the poor, sick, and disadvantaged. In that society, a person had a very strong obligation to protect any guests in their home. Many Christians believe that this is the meaning behind the story of the destruction of Sodom. This belief is buttressed in the many other references to Sodom in the Bible, as well as Jewish literature.

The local men wanted to humiliate their visitors by engaging in an act of sexual degradation and male rape...These are acts of violence that are committed by parties seeking to show their hatred for those they are degrading. It is not an act of love or of caring. Some theologians suggest that the sin of Sodom was the threat of mass rape.

The men of Sodom wanted to engage in bestiality -- having sex with members of another species. The mob may have wanted to rape the angels; angels are not human beings; they are of a different species. This would be consistent with the frequently mistranslated verse in Jude about the men of Sodom going after "other flesh" or "strange flesh." The men wanted to adsorb the power of the angels. In ancient times, 'sacred sex' was very common. People would engage in sexual intercourse with temple prostitutes who represented a god or goddess. By doing so, the people believed that they would receive a blessing from the deity. If the people of Sodom realized that angels sent by God were present in their city, the men of Sodom may have concluded that raping the angels might give them supernatural powers.


A common practice in biblical apologetics is to let the Bible interpret itself. Looking elsewhere in the Bible for references to Sodom may help us determine which of the above interpretations is/are correct.

The interpretation of Genesis 19 as referring to a homosexual sin has been traced to the 11th century (1,000's), by the Italian ascetic, St. Peter Damian. Until recently, the vast majority of Christian theologians accepted this explanation. In fact, the English word sodomy, which popularly means either homosexual or heterosexual anal intercourse, was derived from the name of the city. The term "sodomy" is also used in some ancient laws to refer to a variety of sexual behaviors in addition to heterosexual intercourse. Some of these laws are still on the books although the U.S. Supreme Court declared them unconstitutional in June, 2003, as part of its Lawrence v. Texas decision.

Opinion among most liberal and mainline Christian and Jewish theologians has now reverted to the original Christian belief that Genesis 19 refers to a lack of charity and to ill treatment of strangers.



In ancient Jewish literature, such as the "Ethics of the Fathers" and the Talmud, there are many references to Sodom. The phrase "middat Sdom" was used. It may be translated as "the way the people of Sodom thought." It meant a lack of charity and hospitality towards others; ignoring the needs of the poor, etc. In the Middle East, a person's survival could depend upon the charity of strangers. To help strangers was a solemn religious duty of paramount importance. See Leviticus 19:33-34 and Matthew 25:35, 38 and 43.

Consider the following: Isaiah 1; The entire first chapter is an total condemnation of Judah. It is repeatedly compared with Sodom and Gomorrah in its evildoing and depravity. Throughout the chapter, the Prophet lists many sins of the people: rebelling against God, lacking in knowledge, deserting the Lord, idolatry, engaging in meaningless religious ritual, being unjust and oppressive to others, being insensitive to the needs of widows and orphans, committing murder, accepting bribes, etc. HOWEVER, there is NO reference to homosexuality or to any other sexual activities at all.

Jeremiah 23:14:"...among the prophets of Jerusalem, I have seen something horrible: They commit adultery and live a lie. They strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no one turns from his wickedness. They are all like Sodom to me; the people of Jerusalem are like Gomorrah." Jeremiah compares the actions of the prophets with the adultery, lying and evil of the people of Sodom. AGAIN, Homosexual activity is NOT mentioned.

Ezekiel 16:49-50: "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen."

In the above passage, God, Himself, clearly says that He destroyed Sodom's sins because of their pride, their excess of food while the poor and needy suffered; sexual activity is NOT even mentioned.

In Matthew 10:14-17; Jesus implied that the sin of the people of Sodom was in being inhospitable to strangers.

Luke 10:7-16: This is parallel passage to the verses from Matthew.

2 Peter 6-8: Peter mentions that God destroyed the adults and children of Sodom because the former were ungodly, unprincipled and lawless.

Jude, Verse 7: Jude disagreed with Jesus and Ezekeiel; he wrote that Sodom's sins were sexual in nature. Various biblical translations of this passage in Jude describe the sin as: fornication, going after strange flesh, sexual immorality, perverted sensuality, homosexuality, lust of every kind, immoral acts and unnatural lust. It looks as if the translators were unclear of the meaning of the verse in its original Greek, and simply selected their favorite sin to attack. The original Greek is transliterated as: "sarkos heteras." This can be translated as "other flesh". Ironically, our English word "heterosexual" comes from "heteras."

A likely interpretation is that the author of Jude criticized the men of Sodom for wanting to engage in sexual activities with angels. Angels are described in the Bible as a species of created beings who were different from humans. The sin of the people of Sodom, then, would be that of bestiality. Another possibility is that the "other flesh" refers to cannibalism, which was a practice associated with early Canaanite culture. However, there is no mention, in Genesis 19, about the men of Sodom getting close enough to actually 'touch' the Angels let alone, actually 'eatIng' the angels.
On the other hand there are some passages which might imply that the sin of Sodom WAS homosexuality:

Jeremiah 49:18: Some conservative theologians have interpreted this verse as criticizing the inhabitants of Jerusalem for their sexual sins, and implying that they were like the men of Sodom.

Ezekiel 16:50: Although the preceding verse describes Sodom's sins as pride, laziness, insensitivity to the needs of the poor, and haughtiness, verse 50 refers to the citizens of Sodom as having "committed abomination." The Hebrew word "to'ebah," translated here as "abomination," was used throughout the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) to refer to various ritually impure acts, such as Hebrews and Egyptians eating together, Hebrews eating lobster, shrimp, or snakes, sacrificing an animal in the temple that contained a blemish, women wearing men's clothing (e.g. pants), a man remarrying his former wife, etc. It was also used in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 to condemn same-sex activity between two males. It is debatable which "abomination(s)" occurred in Sodom. But it could, very easily have been same-gender sexual activity.

RevRon

A sinful "lifestyle" choice to daily live in, and a person who may stumble from time to time, but repents is what I was trying to explain. Where you said,
"Ezekiel 16:50: Although the preceding verse describes Sodom's sins as pride, laziness, insensitivity to the needs of the poor, and haughtiness..."
All of these affect more than an individual and are a lifestyle choice. If all sin was equal and the same before God than His judgment would be falling on all cites and people everywhere, and all the time.
Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice and if one doesn't repent, which is stop that way of life, and go the other way, than there is no forgiveness, nor eternity with God in heaven. A person who is un-repented dies an eternal death, and a Christian who turns from their sin (dies to self and self will) and walks in a repented state will be saved. If I am a sinner, saved by the blood of Jesus, I am a new creation, but not a completed creation until I go and am with Him in my eternal heavenly body. My life choices here and now will determine who I belong to. Repentance is not living a sinful lifestyle, and just because one claims to be a Christian, or at one time asked Jesus into their life, that doesn't make them a Christian (Absolutely NO scriptural basis). It's a daily walk, death to self and the ways of the flesh, it's making Jesus alive in every aspect of your life, even while in this sinful body. THAT'S WHY THIS BODY MUST DIE (Figuratively), AND WE ARE COMMANDED TO LIVE IN HIS SPIRIT! A single sin or a multitude of sins separates us from God! YES! However a sinner in Jesus (The Word which leads the way), following by their obedience to His truth, living a righteous "LIFESTYLE", walking in love and repenting when wrong, makes them perfect and righteous in God's eyes. NO ONE can justify sin, or their sinful lifestyle and claim to be a Christian.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Luk 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

RevRon

You left some things out alabuck! Their haughtiness was a reprobate mind from a "Greater number" or "LEVELS of sin!
How could the great sinners of Samaria be "MORE RIGHTEOUS", and commit less than half the sins of those in Sodom (of which the word sodomy comes from). Those in Sodom had no idea that those were angels inside, and only wanted them for their abominations, "SODOMY"!!!

Eze 16:50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
Eze 16:51 Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done.
Eze 16:52 Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.

fiatlux

"Shame, shame, know your name!" Sorry, this piece is pathetic from start to finish. A bully moralist who adores the sound of his own punishing tongue. The likes of Jim Jones is born from such.

However, crushing the idol of the Republican Party that Christians worship is wise. God's kingdom is neither advanced nor changed by government.

ColdDrink

Hmmm, I think there was quite a bit more to what was said. Perhaps you didn't bother to read it all.

susanblange Loc: USA

Christianity itself is inherently and intrinsically pagan. An idol is in part, the physical representation of a (dead) god or other instrument of worship, like a cross. Jesus is the modern day idol of Israel.