straightUp Loc: California

No it's not. They got there mostly through the debt system which is 100% capitalist ...AND working out really well for them too. They also invest heavily in politics but that has nothing to do with economic systems or ideology. That's just rich people outbidding democracy for representation.


What the state owns and who owns the state are two different things.

Who Owns the State:
In a democratic system, the state is owned by the people though legal representation. This is still the system defined by the U.S.Constitution, although it can be said that the PTB exercise a more effective ownership of the state through financial obligation and the purchase of influence, both of which are constitutionally questionable.

What the State Owns:
Socialist doctrine is concerned with what means of production the state owns and assumes the state itself is democratic, although less than democratic states have been known to exercise ownership of production. Some will argue that if the state isn't democratic then it's ownership of production isn't socialist. That's because democracy is the only thing that gives state ownership to the people. Otherwise, there is no distinction between socialism and any of the other forms of "private" ownership of the state and it's means of production that we've seen in history, such as monarchy.

Socialism presents no value to the PTB because they already have direct ownership of production. The last thing they want to do is nationalize it and give it away to the people.

I think what concerns many of the folks here on OPP is a simple matter of authority. Who tells us what we can and can't do? But again... The PTB doesn't need socialism to exercise that kind of authority over us because they already have direct influence over us as consumers on the market, from credit cards to mortgages to the thoughts conservatives get from Fox News (which borders on North Korean style of cultural totalitarianism). So really, who needs socialism for any of this? Commercial marketing as developed right here in America is the most advanced form of mind control ever devised.

As for the rules... well, since I have no interest in murdering or raping anyone so most of the rules that limit my personal liberty comes from local governments, the private firms that I work for... and of course my wife. ;)


Well, yes... This is the measure of a truly powerful force with global reach. More powerful than any empire or system that has ever existed before and made possible by a debt-based financial system that has achieved global superiority. No socialist system can even hold a candle to this.

So unless, there is something really significant that I am overlooking, socialism is something the PTB has no use for. And if you're just the term "socialism" to describe state authority, I suggest you use a more accurate term such as... state authority. In other words, stop calling apples oranges.

eagleye13 Loc: Fl

"No it's not. They got there mostly through the debt system which is 100% capitalist ...AND working out really well for them too. They also invest heavily in politics but that has nothing to do with economic systems or ideology. That's just rich people outbidding democracy for representation."

Totally off base.
Our debt system is not the system our Constitution created.
Article 1; Section 8 {5}
It was bastardized/circumvented by the usurers, the same PTB that rule today. A money monopoly, that all Americans and the government pay never ending interest to.

"They also invest heavily in politics..." - Yep; with money they create out of thin air. They can buy anything, and they have.

All money in circulation has to be borrowed from them with interest attached. This trap must be eliminated to ever have a sound economy again.

straightUp Loc: California

I didn't say it is. In fact I even said the debt system is constitutionally questionable... Do you actually read what I write?


Yes, we both know this, no need to keep repeating it. But I get the impression you think this isn't capitalism. You *DO* realize that capitalism isn't actually defined by the constitution right? Capitalism is ANY system that leverages the private ownership of capital. Debt *IS* capital and this case it is also privately owned.


Again, I don't know why you feel the need to drill this point. I get it eagle... I've been saying this for 30 years, since Reagan was in office. So, I get it.

Since Nixon took the dollar off the gold standard (great move there Dick), the U.S. Dollar has become an unattractive debt-based currency. But the world is forced to keep their money in dollars because of the petro-dollar arrangement first initialized by the US-Saudi Arabian Join Commission on Economic Development.

When Iraq started to trade oil in euros, we attacked them, brought the government down and switched their oil trade back to the dollar. When Kaddafi started to promote a unified African currency based on gold, we encouraged a r*******n in Libya and helped them k**l Kaddafi. Now Iran and Syria are using and/or considering alternate currencies for oil trade and sure enough, we're aiding Syrian rebels and applying sanctions to Iran.

Every major conflict in the world today, except maybe the Ukraine, stems from the PTB's efforts to keep everyone in the world on this debt-based system of U.S. dollars, which is enforced by their control of our foreign policy and by extension our military. And THAT my friend is WHY the world h**es us.

eagleye13 Loc: Fl

I think we are almost totally in agreement. Some semantics/definitions causing confusion.
We do understand what the PTB are up to.

jimahrens Loc: California

Very well said