martsiva

So peace between Ukraine and Russia is a bad idea?? Tell us JUST where all the money is coming from to do all that you think we should do?? What - you think that we should go deeper in debt than we already are?? And you just know Russia is going to commit 'genocide of millions of Ukrainians HOW?? All you are doing is supporting a war for g*******ts and their plan for the New World Order!! What I find amazing is that you think you know more than a former Marine Corp intelligence officer who has more contacts from all involved than you will ever hope to have!! You have stated before that you are against g*******ts and the New World Order but yet here you are supporting what they are doing!!! You won`t even acknowledge the fact that you know nothing about the history of what started this war but you seem to think you have all the answers to everything about it!! Your ultimate 'plan is an ail out war with Russia and that could go nuclear!! No - you go pound sand with your support of this g*******t war !!

martsiva

Remiss?? So sending billions to Ukraine in money and resources already is 'remiss"?? You want an outright war with Russia - PERIOD!!

pegw

Apparently you have been hit yet again by Russian disinformation. Zelensky did not buy anything from King Charles. When I fact checked, there were a dozen or so articles on this, and what conduits the Russians used smear Zelensky

manning5me Loc: Richmond, Va.

==================
Part of my thesis is that appeasement of an aggressor is futile and only leads to further aggression. Russia is the aggressor here. So, we appease them. What will be next?
I say any state they covet. Each Balkan state, for example. By suing for peace and settling it in some manner, we simply free up Russian forces to yet another aggression in the Baltic real soon.
On a personal note, I spent ten years in Europe supporting NATO efforts, so I am not a neophyte here, then I spent seven years in the pentagon associated with each command center and its renovation. Earlier, I had direct participation in a number of intel projects under contract. Yes, it was some time ago, but the t***hs are timeless.

What I said was we should have had some control over our money and war material in Ukraine so that it wasn't siphoned off for yachts and mansions, or equipment sold n the arms market. We have the leverage to insist upon tracking how our money is used. We were remiss in not doing that, apparently.

No, I do not want all out war with Russia, but I do want to support the Ukraine in removing the Russians from their lands. They have no right to any of Ukraine's oblasts, period. As for my belief that the Russians would k**l civilians, they are already very busy at it every day. You need to examine what they have done in some 10 other countries to their civilian populations, to realize that they are bloodthirsty devils incarnate, and set loose in the Ukraine they will k**l civilians right and left, and woe be it if you are ex military. You want to inject the past, here is one for you! I am fairly well briefed on the past here, but, it doesn't excuse the Russian's invasion in my book regardless of our culpabilities over 2008-2014 and 2014-2022. That crosses my red line and crystalizes my opinion. This is a NATO problem and funds must be had from all, that is, if they do believe in the resistance.

manning5me Loc: Richmond, Va.

I am pounding sand, the sand that fills heads with extraneous info, and failing to see the serious outcome of their current thoughts downstream.
I have had my say on this matter. -30-

Puds Loc: So Centrl MN

AND WE ARE BANKRUPT!!!

LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago

***A great post in counter to mine that few have read and fewer understood, I guess. No matter.
>>>Unfortunately that is true on Opp for most good discussions. All we usually get is shouting at and name calling, etc. Hopefully we can both at least get a few new perspectives on the issue that will help formulate future opinions. Beyond that, we are mostly firmly entrenched

***I remain convinced that the following are true:
1. Russia is not the sweetness and light country some depict. The conduct of their troops in this and prior wars is abominable. They show no regard for Ukraine citizens by missiling them for two years. I believe they would massacre a million Ukraine citizens given the chance.
>>>1. And unfortunately, neither are we, all to often. Russians have gotten a lot of bad press in this war. Much possibly deserved. But consider this. The N**i AZOV battalion actually set up torture chambers for the ethnic Russians they captures between 2014 and 2022. And they often fired missiles into citizen areas between those years and still do. It does go both ways. As for massacring a million citizens, I disagree. Russians and Ukrainians have been like brothers on and off over the years. That hatred isn't there. And what the Russians did to Germans in WWII is completely different. The Germans did much worse to them and it was payback. I'm German and I don't like that. But I can somewhat understand it. And also remember, that was under Stalin, a vicious monster, c*******t and a real absolute dictator.

***2. Russia is an imperialistic nation, and it is expansionist by definition, a faith that Putin has shown continually in Russia. I believe he wants to expand the borders to the old Soviet extent and is willing to use nuclear threats to gobble the Balkans up one by one.
>>>2. Imperialistic Nation sound more like cheap talk found on the Internet then actual fact and reality. Sounds more like what NATO is doing. Imperialistic conglomerate of Nations set up to fight a threat that was there and is growing to fight a threat that isn't there except as a counter to their very selves. Putin doesn't even want all of Ukraine. He wants them as a buffer against further NATO expansion, a perpatual hostile border like the DMZ in Korea, and a threat to their access to the west via the seas. Always stated a neutral Ukraine as one of his goals. He can't afford and has no desire to capture and have to police all of those hostile nations.

***3. The US will be unwilling to start a nuclear war to save either Estonia or Latvia, or Lithuania.
>>>3. Russia has no desire to attack them. But one of the reasons for attacking Ukraine was to protect ethnic Russians that were Ukrainian citizens. That dynamic does exist in those nations and they are and have been persecuting their ethnic Russians. Sounds like they are the bad guys. I would hope it never gets to that. But that would not be a goal of conquest, but protecting Russia's own ethnic people. Stop the persecution now.
***4. It is time to cut off considering the who-shot-John events of the past and over-thinking the problem, over blaming, over crediting, etc. Russia invaded the Ukraine and also took the Crimea from a sovereign nation.
>>>4. But that is part of what started it and who can be trusted. America proved to Russia it can't be trusted. (Expanding NATO after agreeing not to if Russia allowed E and W Germany to unite). They kept their side of the bargain. It wasn't the other way around. And it was America that helped orchestrate the illegal c**p in Kiev, that forced the President to flee for his life. They then tired to decide who would take over Ukraine. And those that did started to persecute the ethnic Russians in Ukraine, who just had their leader over thrown. There is a legitimate argument that can be made, that if you over throw a government, there is no country and what is left can unite or divide. After the persecutions started, some decided to divide. So, did Russia invade Ukraine, or move in to help its new neighbor, those eastern provinces, as independent nations. I know, the world doesn't recognize that. But did the people who lived there recognize it. And what is a sovereign nation. Especially in Europe where borders have been decided by politicians and generals without the consent of the people. Hundreds and thousands of Ukraine's citizens are also ethnic Poles, Romanians, Hungarians. Would they rather be aligned with and absorbed by their ethnic countries. The only country I ever saw in Europe that decided their own borders, in part, by the will of the people was Czechoslovakia.

***5. NATO nations see this more the way I do, and are ramping up to help. They do not want the Bear to go any further into Europe, and they believe Putin would.
>>>I agree and that is why I fight this. I believe they are not getting the facts, but a whole lot of propaganda. The Bear does not want to go further into Europe except as people engaged in mutual commerce like nations of a free world should engage. I agree that many people believe Putin would. I don't and am trying to show why I believe this and the world should also. Lets prevent WWIII by engaging in diplomacy. The east has tried and the west used the pauses to rearm. Something we would normally blame on the other side, like a pause in Gaza and Hamas rearming. We h**e it there, but did it in Ukraine.

***6. NATO and the US are about 18 months away from having armament production and rearming themselves. peaking, The Ukraine needs to be sustained for that period. They need all the weapons and munitions to help.
>>>So we should send more Ukrainians out to be butchered and k**led in the meantime. And then a couple more years of stalemate in trenches, only further to the west. Why not start talking now. It is the west that has blocked that. Oh, and we sure don't need to go into debt for 60 billion more for them. We have out own country to save.

***7. I believe Russia plans to attack in the Baltic, all NATO nations, We will not be able to defend them. But we can derail it by fighting in Ukraine to win using Ukraine troops. With our help, the grinder can be reversed, putting Russian back into its cage, and saving the citizens of Ukraine, and the Balkans.
>>>I can't believe that. There is no reasonable goal for them beyond the ability for future commerce through the Baltic Sea. They can accomplish more through negotiation as equal free nations. What? Put the Bear in its cage. That is part of why this whole war started. The expansion of NATO so they can put a cage around Russia. So then the Eagle can run free over all of Europe, and take advantage of them in commerce, but the Bear can't. So Europe and America can become unencumbered socialist states and eventually L*****t dictatorships, while Russia is still emerging from that hell of C*******m and yearning to be free. Makes no sense to me.

***8. Corruption in Ukraine can either be minimized or not. We have the leverage to do a lot to stop it if we want. Z can have his yacht sold and the funds recovered or sunk, his choice.
>>>And they are the most corrupt state in Europe. We sort of agree on that. But those corrections will be a long time coming.

***This posture of mine will not prevail, it seems clear, I believe mainly because of: 1. the k*****g; and 2, the belief that Russia has become a benign citizen of the world, despite its track record of 14 wars/interventions/etc. since 1945, and 9 of which are Putin wars, some still in progress.
I believe even more k*****g will ensue from a Russian victory, the Balkans will be next, with more k*****g, and we need to worry about Poland. It is a domino pact we face, and it ought to be stopped now in Ukraine.
>>>Actually your posture is more likely to succeed then mine and I feel that is wrong. Hence this discussion. You mention Russia's track record or 14 wars. And how many wars has America been in? And how many wars has Russia been in since they threw off the yoke of C*******m that we are starting to embrace. I believe that Russia has no interest in a domino affect. But America is using that quite effectively via NATO and its implied threat to Russia.

>>>Now consider this. If we actually tried to engage Russia more in 1990 and honored our agreement over NATO expansion, they might be a real friend right now, like Germany and Japan became after their defeats. And China would be more isolated. We have in affect actually help create a stronger alliance or connection between Russia and China and North Korea. And they are also creating a currency alignment between them and India and S. Africa and Brazil and many others wanting to join them against the America dollar as the world reserve currency. We're losing here and we haven't even fired a shot yet. We've even pushed them into aligning with Iran on weapons purchases.

Here is a question. What do you have against Gorbachev? Yeltsin? We moved against Russia under them and before Putin came along. C*******m in Russia was now dead.

Here's another point on who to blame, Russia or America. Remember the Cuban Missile crisis? I was in the Navy then and could have faced serious issues. Khrushchev put Missiles into Cuba. Kennedy would have none of that. He forced Khrushchev to back down with a blockade of Cuba. Only that isn't exactly what happened. It seems as if America already had missiles in Turkey pointed at Moscow. Khrushchev only agreed to remove them if America would remove it's threat to Russia. Kennedy agreed if that part of the deal was kept secret. Ooops.

Another thing I like to ask is what would you have done if you took over Russia when Putin did. Facing the threat of your own oligarchs taking over Russia. Keeping Russia free. Guiding Russia into a new world of commerce as a free people. The brand new threat of an expanding NATO for no othter reason then to contain Russia. And stay in power to accomplish the goals of guiding Russia back to a super power while being friends throughout the world. Keeping c*******m dead in Russia. Helping the Russian people attain a greater status and comfort in life. And protecting its borders. Really, what would you do?

Enjoyed responding. I love a good discussion.

Logically Right

LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago

Just saw this continuation

***9. We have been remiss in supplying the Ukraine the best weapons in a timely fashion, mainly to ensure they didn't strike Russia. In my view, we could furnish them all the M1A2 Abrams tanks they could man, Bradley's too. More MLRS, m-777'S and ammo for them all; F-16's, A-10's, Stingers, Anti-tank weapons, and more. The Ukrainians are experiencing slow defeat and excessive casualties because of this deficiency. Have we not a store of more than 8,000 M1A2 tanks?
>>>We have been depleting our own supplies to recklessly low levels. We need massive replacement to ensure our own abilities to fight a war.


***10. The real question here is do we want the Ukrainians to succeed or not? I say yes. The second question is are we willing to stand up to Russian threats to go nuclear? Perhaps Putin feels he can stand having, say, three hundred nukes hitting every city in Russia? He needs to be reminded of our capability for a second strike. I say he bluffs. If Putin is at all sane he would not lead his nation into oblivion, especially over the Ukraine going to the west. Thus, we can proceed with conventional warfare to oust Russia from the Ukraine.
>>>I think we want the people that live in Ukraine to have the ability to chart their own course. That was taken away in the illegal c**p of 2014, especially with America almost dictating who would succeed the President who was forced to flee for his life. That includes the people of the Donbass and the surrounding areas, mostly ethnic Russian, who had their leader forced out. Then a new leader, illegally forced on them and the starting of persecuting them, their culture and their language and other methods. These European countries have artificial borders that don't meet the desires of the people within and forced on them by Generals and Politicians and outside interests.
As for Putin and war. He has more nuclear weapons then we do. Ooops. He does not want this war, but can't afford to loose. America has been leading this aggression against Russia for over 25 years now. Probably more. He has to keep fighting for the safety and security of Russia against an enemy he did not create. They are to busy creating Russia as the enemy.

***11. But if I am wrong and Putin is perfectly willing to have a nuclear exchange? This is the thought trail that leads to the success of Putin's nuclear blackmail, and virtually any country he wants to absorb into Russia, sooner or later. I say that is exactly what he will do if he wins the Ukraine war.
>>>I disagree. Putin doesn't want this. He wants to keep America and NATO off of his borders and to engage the world in free and equal commerce.

***13. There seems to be a n**i question here for the Ukrainians. Ye Gods, if Russia wins, anyone tagged with being a n**i will be in grave danger of losing his life or spending it in a gulag. How many real n**i's are in the Ukraine? I do not know.
>>>Most of the N**i troops were already k**led off. They did exist and Ukraine had huge N**i forces since WWII. How to totally eliminate them is another question. But certainly limit them to no local organizing or meetings, and laws like Germany had to install against the N**i movements in Germany.

Cheers
Logically Right

LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago

Agreed on that at least. Rand Paul has been a leader in trying to get that done and v**ed down by democrats.

manning5me Loc: Richmond, Va.

my post disappeared. will answer tomorrow

manning5me Loc: Richmond, Va.

A short summary of my experience over the 43 years of my career. is called for, since I am being compared to Scott Ritter. I bow to his currency; that I cannot match.

But I have had long and deep knowledge of intel, command and control, communications, and computers, all applications from the top down, WH, Pentagon, Omaha, Fleet, and delivery systems. such as the B-52H, Boomers, etc.

The whole nuclear warfare systematics was a major
part of my background. I held high clearances throughout my efforts. I spent a year helping the CIA automate its overt side. For 7 years I was in the pentagon renovation program, with concentration on all command centers, and data requirements.

I went to Holland in 1974, working for a subsidiary of Philips called Hollandse Signaal Apparaten or HSA. From that company position as manager of advanced systems, I was brought into studies for NATO on a wide range of topics vital to its role in the defense of Europe. NATO AWACS was one program where I worked on the communication system. Air Defense was yet another specialty I was deeply involved in. for a number of years.

My 10 years in HSA included working with the Dutch army to automate their artillery system. And as result of my knowledge of the US TACFIRE artillery system, I was invited by the German MOD to consult in their approach to automation, and subsequently did the same for the Swiss army. At the time, I had the reputation of being an artillery expert.

After returning to the US, I was appointed by E-Systems to lead an effort from NATO called BICES, where we teamed with BAE to propose a solution to manage the expected war with Russia by automating support to the commanders. We didn't win the contract, but the system knowledge we acquired was significant.

I recognize that my experiences, while comprehensive at the time I was involved, are over two to three decades old. But the fundamentals of modern warfare, of NATO, the complexity of the C4I problem, Russian tactics, the nuclear war aspect, the air defense problem, the strategy and tactics I was exposed to, each of the NATO members at that time, and the expanding role of NATO I observed are all quite useful to me today.

This, then is where I am coming from, just some of the background of my knowledge when discussing the Ukraine situation. I will post a response to LR shortly.

Steven smith

One heck of a good discussion. I enjoyed it immensely?

Lily

It’ll be Plan C, D, E until all the illegal scum get the right to v**e then they’ll stop it to keep their social welfare payments flowing.

manning5me Loc: Richmond, Va.

The central question we are wrestling with is Putin and his intentions for Russia, its independence, its commerce and its defense. I have no direct knowledge of his intentions. It is possible that no one knows Putin's plans, he was a trained KGB agent and is highly intelligent.

One rather revealing thing I do know is that he is a chess player. So am I, at just below the master level at one time. A good player thinks ahead, at times many moves ahead. Indeed, intimidation and the attempt at mental destruction of the opponent is quite normal for good players.

This is revealing to me. I can see marks of this thinking over the past few years by Putin. As a player, he looks at both sides of of his approach, on the one side it is opening Russia to the world as a good citizen, with commerce and industry, then the other side has a turn: how to defend the homeland against all possible invaders. Russia has been invaded over 50 times and is paranoid about their defense.

This leads to the need for regaining the key passes that lead to the heartland so that minimal forces can stop an invader long enough for mobile forces to reinforce them. The Soviet Union possessed all 8 of these passes, and Putin has regained 4 of them during his 9 wars and interventions since assuming the presidency. This is aggressive Putin.

He wants to possess the other 4 ultimately, and the Ukraine lies between one of them, and the Baltic states rest on the others. Thus, it is in the cards that Putin invaded the Ukraine, to get to the Carpathian Mountain passes, and he will ultimately go for the Baltic states. This is fundamental to his defensive thinking for the Motherland.

But his plans and schedules for acquiring the defense points has been totally disrupted by the Ukrainian response to the invasion, and that battle continues. More on this later.

The Baltic states are all new members of NATO, and count on Article 5 of the NATO treaty to be supported if they are invaded, say by Russia. If Putin invades one of these states, we have the option of either a conventional response or a nuclear response. Considering the fact that Russia has many nuclear-tipped intercontinental missiles at the ready to respond to our nuclear attack, MAD comes to the fore, which leads to our decision not to use our nukes over the taking of a Balkan state by Russia. This is a fact. By using this nuclear blackmail approach, Russia could take the Balkan states or any other state, one by one until they have all of the defense points, they think they need.

The key question here is this in Putin's agenda or not? If it is, we need to thwart it in the Ukraine. If it isn't, then we can consider stopping the fighting in Ukraine, and find a settlement that makes sense.
All of NATO believes Putin wants to expand the borders of Russia into eastern Europe and the Balkans, so they believe in Putin's aggressive plans.

In opposition to this, many believe the Putin can be trusted to make a reasonable settlement with the Ukraine, that we should sue for peace, stop the k*****g, and try to find a way to better relations with Russia, while saving a ton of money. Of course, there is the problem of reconstruction of cities, infrastructure and farms in the Ukraine. Who pays for that?

We have benevolent Putin and we have aggressive Putin. Ours to discover which one we are dealing with!

It is apparent also that the US is duplicitous to the max with regard to the Ukraine in the past, and thus the word of the US government is seriously suspect now. Under Biden, we are continuing to support the fighting , and the bill passed to provide the Ukraine some $67 billion in new support. All of NATO is gearing up production of armaments to support the Ukraine and to increase their own stocks of arms.

Personally, I believe in the aggressive Putin, hence I support the fight to remove Russian troops from the Ukraine, and to thwart Putin's aggression elsewhere, such as in the Baltic.

However, should Putin signal his desire to stop the shooting and go to the negotiating table, we must do the same. And, if the terms they offer are good, we can accept them. The k*****g must stop sooner than later. I do not believe our administration will go to the table though.

I dearly hope we can prevent any nudnicks from converting the US to socialism. I believe that would cause an i**********n to stop it.


,

martsiva

Nothing excuses the lies about NATO not expanding into Ukraine which is EXACTLY what this war is all about and you totally ignore!! You are STILL supporting this g*******t war and their quest for a New World Order no matter how you try to twist it!!