Floyd Brown Loc: Milwaukee WI

I have felt all along that we are more alike & have more in common than what would meet the eye.

It is only in finding agreement with each other that will hold the important things together.

We need to put aside our petty differences & come together with our strengths that are holding things together.

Any strength that this country has or needs comes from people like Us.

For the most part I see us as main stream Americans & as such our voices need to be heard

Tasine Loc: Southwest US

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Floyd, I think most Americans can agree on SOME things, but I think the most important things will NEVER be agreed on. Those things that will NEVER be agreed upon involve Constitutional and Rights issues. One issue will be how money is collected and used by the government - there will NEVER, EVER be a consensus on those issues. Another issue will be the use our military. Some believe in helping other nations protect their citizens, some Americans do NOT believe in helping other nations and believe that our military should be used ONLY to protect America's interests and people. These are beliefs that come from the heart and the head, and aren't easily c*********d on. And compromise is actually what you suggest.

Compromise is what got us to this state of affairs to begin with, or at least I believe compromise is the culprit. The reason I believe that is because I have seen "compromise" go this way: the democrat says, "I will agree to allow prayer in Congress, but YOU must agree to raise taxes by 50%. And the republican will agree. That is NOT a compromise......that is a con job. A compromise means I give in on an issue from MY direction, and YOU give in on that same issue from YOUR direction. I cannot fathom that happening today.

I do wish you well in your quest, however. Your goal is an admirable one.

lpnmajor Loc: Arkansas

We have been conditioned to believe that even considering what the "others" have to say, is a betrayal of OUR side, so no consensus will ever be reached. It has become imperative that we accept ALL of one side or the other, no compromise whatsoever. Compromise = treason. It's no longer " all for one and one for all ", it's " one for all " now and the "one" is what ever side manages to win.

We COULD manage our affairs in a sensible and fair manner, but that would require determining what is sensible and what is fair. We, as citizens, COULD decide that for ourselves, but we have decided not to. We have abrogated our responsibilities AS citizens, allowing others to set the narratives for us and follow blindly along on wh**ever tangent these others have set.

When Americans come to decide that they ARE Americans, first and foremost and anything else is secondary, we might begin to have those conversations which would result in agreement. For now, we'll continue to be republicans, democrats or independents and refuse to co-operate with anyone not of our ilk. It will be all democrat or all republican, or we won't do a damn thing, just like we haven't done anything for the past 6 years.

Tasine Loc: Southwest US

I think you might want to visit my partner's website on which I also work: http://www.no-ruler.net

Floyd Brown Loc: Milwaukee WI

What you are forgetting is that with Rights come Obligations.

I think we need to look closer at just what those Obligations are.

Floyd Brown Loc: Milwaukee WI

That is why we are here isn't it.

As I see myself being here seeking ways to look at the problems we have & finding the best way to express the issues.

This compromise issue is being worked to death on this site.

All we need to do is express our self as clearly as we can & for others to do the same. Then let common sense lead us to the best answer.

After all it isn't brain surgery. It may seem at times that might seem to be that some may need a bit of surgery.

As strange as it may seem I think I see some bright spots now & then. I think the idea that we are together in this mess & the answers we need will be coming as we come to see that being divided as much as we are needs to end.

Tasine Loc: Southwest US

The hell I am forgetting the obligations!!!! Wrong sentence to wrong gal, Floyd.

Floyd Brown Loc: Milwaukee WI

I didn't mean to infer that you as an individual don't meet your obligations.

On a whole I would say that I feel that bottom line you are a very fine person.

I just think your political views are open to debate.

Tasine Loc: Southwest US

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Good! Now we have something to actually practice with.

My view is that the US Constitution is the basis for our law of the land and MUST be followed. Do you agree or disagree?

My view is that the Bill of Rights is sacrosanct and cannot legally be violated. Do you agree or disagree?

My view is that what is mine is mine, what is yours is yours and neither of us has any right to take or mess around with the other's property. Do you agree or disagree?

My view is that my life if MY LIFE to lead as I please as long as I harm no one. Do you agree or disagree?

My view is that each of our lives is sovereign and belongs to us, not to the nation. Do you agree or disagree?

Floyd, this is ALMOST my total list of beliefs. I can do more later if you wish. But how much of this do you think should be open to debate?

Floyd Brown Loc: Milwaukee WI

Bottom line as one individual to another there need be no fear of each other between Us.

The thing I see is that you take a hard line on a line that has been bent with little likely hood of being changed is a waste of time when we have so little chance of correcting things.

lpnmajor Loc: Arkansas

I see problems occur when we try to define what "harm to others" actually means. The right to do as we please only goes as far as another persons sovereign rights and when the two intersect, it is law that determines the boundaries. Without laws, we have anarchy. Do "we the people" have a right to require treasure from everyone to provide for mutual benefits? Apparently so and that applies from the local level all the way to the National level.

Most of the gripes and complaints here, are about where the line is drawn between the "good of all" and "personal freedom to do as we please". We don't have National referendums, we make our laws by representative Government. The fuss over who controls the Congress that is currently going on, is a case in point. What difference does that make? The Congress is supposed to represent ALL Americans, not just those of the "ruling" party. To suggest that one parties ideas are more representative of ALL Americans is ridiculous - unless - members of that party get 100% of the v**e in all 50 States.

Until the Congress of the Untied States figures out how to work together to make the best laws possible, meaning laws that represents what the majority of Americans feel is right, we'll NOT have representative Government. Receiving 51% of the v**e is NOT a directive authorizing that candidate to ignore the views of the 49%. It means that those candidates who win, are now responsible for representing EVERYONE in their district, regardless of their party, or lack of one, and whether or not they v**ed for them. THAT is where things break down - representation. The Congress has forgotten, that they are responsible for representing ALL Americans, of every party, every religion, every sex and everything else - that's what the Constitution says as well.

Tasine Loc: Southwest US

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"I see problems occur when we try to define what "harm to others" actually means. The right to do as we please only goes as far as another persons sovereign rights and when the two intersect" I concur completely. We read from the same sources. Anarchy does not necessarily mean conditions are bad. I am very close to believing anarchy may be the only answer that will work, now that society has lost its integrity and its morality.

"Do "we the people" have a right to require treasure from everyone to provide for mutual benefits? Apparently so and that applies from the local level all the way to the National level." I agree that that seems to be written in stone, but I am diametrically opposed to such a stone. No individual citizen v**es to have his income tax increased at government's will. I would like to see the 16th Amendment, which is questionable at best, rescinded because it is patently unconstitutional.

"Most of the gripes and complaints here, are about where the line is drawn between the "good of all" and "personal freedom to do as we please". I agree. Those two terms are in direct conflict with each other. If each of us is a sovereign being, then "good of all" means no one of us is responsible for the welfare of others. It assumes that people will voluntarily help each other, and I attest to this assumption. In my community we DO help each other, no one goes hungry, no one sleeps beneath a bridge. And if people are to pretend to be humane, then that should be seen throughout the nation, not just in spots. Problem seems to be that large numbers of people want to be generous, but with other people's hard earned money.

All I ask of our Congress and our courts is ONE THING, and quite simple to do: FOLLOW THE US CONSTITUTION AS IT STANDS, NOT AS INDIVIDUALS LIKE TO TWIST IT TO READ. IF OUR "LEADERS" CANNOT FOLLOW ONE SIMPLE REQUEST THAT APPLIES TO ALL CITIZENS, THEN IT IS TIME TO TOSS ALL "LEADERS" OUT.

Striker Loc: Arizona Rockies

The ONLY way of "correcting things" is not by tilting every darn windmill built in the District of Criminals, because Liberty is not included as the first Principal of everything. We've seen that removed ever since 1789, and we've now reached the point where we are Forced to endure the Collectivist State. Force is what GOVERNments are always about, and is why all throughout history have come to FAIL.

It's so disheartening to watch that failure while not be allowed to do anything about it. In America the People have no role in the Balance of Powers, which merely defines the roles of GOVERNment.

The bottom line is that some so-called "humans" insist that THEY Rule, making all other real humans the Subject and the S***es of those who Rule. The lid on that coffin was glued and nailed in v**e2012, when 98% of the v**ers had no choice other that choosing more Collectivist Tyranny.

Only Governments are allowed any and all the powers of Force -- We Subjects are Jailed for any act of Force.

As things are going today, global collapse will put all governments out of business. Will real Humans then finally get that message, and admit that being Governed is the cause? Or will they opt merely to become extinct?

Striker Loc: Arizona Rockies

Good comment, Tasine.
But the root of the problem was built right into the Constitution which created a Government to control a new Nation by having the powers of Force. I'm going to send you back to consider this, again:

http://no-ruler.net/3460/failures-of-the-founders/

Tasine Loc: Southwest US

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:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: You are, of course, right. Our nation has run amok. No one is repairing it or showing it the way. As I stated on another site, as soon as the first state secedes because of the mess the US has become, I will apply for citizenship in that new country that at least suggests a chance at freedom, a chance we do not have here.