One Political Plaza - Home of politics
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Main
Putin’s Two Big Lies
Page <prev 2 of 2
May 13, 2022 20:06:33   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
dtucker300 wrote:
But you just said this China is irrelevant to Ukraine. So is the U.S. Sorry, we've been over this dozens of times and you have not convinced me. You're trying to use one issue when the matter is much more complicated than Ukraine mistreating Russians in its country. You know from all our previous conversations that I do not have a lack of understanding regarding the history of this region. You fail to acknowledge that Putin has more up his sleeve than protecting ethnic Russians. All of this is just a stepping stone. Putin is failing miserably because he is a failure himself. His Military is failing miserably. He has failed his citizens of Russia. He does not come into this with clean hands. Russia is on the Security Council of the UN. Where is the UN in this? Where is the ICC? You want to debate the issue then don't bring extraneous issues into the debate.

What is the primary issue as you see it? Let's settle that before we start deflecting and projecting with all sorts of irrelevancies.
But you just said this China is irrelevant to Ukra... (show quote)


Russian people in the donbas have been being shelled out of existence since 2014. Crimea before that but Crimea has already been annexed. Both location contain huge Russian national populations who do not want to be part of Ukraine. Ukraine h**e all Russians. Putin has tried to negotiate but has been flatly denied and thus he came in to take the donbas from Ukraine. That is the short of it not including the threat of NATO expansion over the past 10 years. There were all the other agreements not kept by Ukraine as their civil war went on and on.

I will say that IF Putin IS failing as you say then it should be soon that Ukraine pushes Russia out of Ukraine at which time I wonder what they will do to those Russians in the donbas that they have been shelling and bombing all these years? And Crimea. What will Ukraine do to them with all the weapons and gold we have given them??? However, what it that is all a lie and Russia is actually doing well?

Reply
May 13, 2022 20:07:05   #
LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
I got this from Zemirah on one of my threads:

As Vladimir Putin had been saying for years (since 2014) as he was ignored, by both the Ukrainian government and the so-called "civilized" nations of the west, he wanted the Ukrainian government to cease attacking and murdering the Russian speaking residents of Donetsk and Lugansk...

"Before the Russian incursion, according to The Citizen News International, printed on Sunday February 20, 2022, since 2014, about 9,000 civilians had been k**led in the Donbass by the Ukrainian military. Such data was presented at the press conference “Scorched memory of Donbass: war crimes of the Ukrainian army and new data on the massacres of the civilian population.”

According to the representative of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the self-proclained Lugansk People's Republic (LPR) Anna Soroka, more than 2,000 civilians, including 35 children, had been k**led during the conflict in the republic, 3,365 people were injured, including 88 minors.

The Commissioner for Human Rights in the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic (DPR), Daria Morozova, said that more than 5,000 people, including 91 minor children, became victims among the population of the DPR. About 8 thousand more people were injured of varying severity during this period.

Determining the exact number of victims of hostilities in the region is still complicated by the large number of missing people.

As Daria Morozova noted, during the active phase of hostilities in 2014, it was not possible to record deaths with documents, and civilians buried the dead on their own, not even knowing their names.

It is noted that at that time the Ukrainian military did not allow the dead to be buried: the cemeteries were mined or shelled.

At the end of July 2021, according to Anna Soroka, the LPR had information of about 17 places of spontaneous burial of civilians, among them seven burials containing more than 50 bodies of civilians. More than 130 places of mass and spontaneous burial have been discovered and unearthed on the territory of the DPR, Daria Morozova noted.

Special working groups were set up in the republics to search for the burial places of victims of the conflict and missing persons.

As the Deputy Foreign Minister of the LPR said, in three and a half months of work, 292 bodies of civilians were raised, and, as followed from the initial examination of forensic specialists, these were indeed civilians.

“What we saw was scary for us. We especially had this feeling. In Sokologorovsk, Pervomaisk district, where ten burials were found 50-70 m deep, where people were simply collected from the streets and buried, simply because it was not possible to bury them normally.We have found new burial places and we can say that strikes were carried out even in those places about which we had no information before,” she said.

DPR Ombudsman Daria Morozova reported that , the remains of nine more civilians who died as a result of the shelling of Ilovaisk in 2014 were raised in the village of Gornoye in Khartsyzsk. According to her, then an ambulance, in which they tried to evacuate a wounded civilian man, came under fire from the armed forces of Ukraine (AFU). The car and everyone in it were burned.

The calculation of the dead, as Dmitry Kalashnikov, head of the forensic medical examination bureau of the Donetsk People's Republic, drew attention to, is further complicated by the fact that in 2014 "the guys fought in jeans."

“Then it was not fixed whether it was military or civilian. We just saw that they were dead. We do not have exact statistics for 2014-2015. More than 60% of the dead are civilians,” he said.

According to Daria Morozova, if all the work goes smoothly, the work on the entire territory can be completed in just two years.

But, if we talk about the global search for the missing, everything will depend on how soon Kiev starts a dialogue with the self-proclaimed republics, because without a full-fledged exchange of information with the Ukrainian side, it will be impossible to establish the fate of all people,” she said.

“Kyiv is building a policy on the bones - this is the height of N**ism, it is no longer clear what is going on in these people’s heads,” said Daria Morozova.

According to Anna Soroka, starting work at the end of July 2021, the authorities expected some results, but the reality exceeded their expectations.

“In Sokologorovka, we expected to pick up 40 bodies, but we picked up 80. There was a lot of new, additional information for us. The number of victims has increased by 100 compared to our expectations. We will not stop until we find everyone, ”she promised.

Separately, Dmitry Kalashnikov drew attention to the injuries of victims who have been admitted to morgues recently. According to him, the so-called military assistance to Ukraine from other countries is of interest."

Remember, this was shortly BEFORE Russia was finally sufficiently provoked into entering Ukraine's borders...

How long will it take our lawless, brain dead Biden regime to deliberately, or at least sufficiently provoke Vladimir
Putin into directly counter attack the U.S. by going nuclear?
I got this from Zemirah on one of my threads: br ... (show quote)


Thanks for that. Put in my save file. Really sick stuff, but of course only Russia is guilty of war crimes.

LR

Reply
May 13, 2022 20:13:20   #
LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago
 
dtucker300 wrote:
"How long will it take our lawless, brain dead Biden regime to deliberately, or at least sufficiently provoke Vladimir Putin into directly counter attack the U.S. by going nuclear?"

That is the $64,000 question.

2014 is not 2022 and Zelensky wasn't president then. Obama/Biden gave Putin the green light. The government of Ukraine was extremely corrupt during this period. None of this rises to the level that Putin has a right to invade a sovereign country. Would you be okay with Mexico invading the U.S. because i******s were being mistreated after crossing the border? Are you justifying Hitler's incursion into the Sudetenland? Do you really believe Putin would stop when what he really h**es is Poland? Putin is a Bully and a thug who is not a legitimate leader of the Russian people. He has murdered opponents and robbed the Russian people to enrich himself as possibly the richest man in the world.
i "How long will it take our lawless, brain ... (show quote)


***None of this rises to the level that Putin has a right to invade a sovereign country. Would you be okay with Mexico invading the U.S. because i******s were being mistreated after crossing the border?
>>>Let's look at this right. If an outside source, say China, helped stage an illegal c**p in Washington, DC and the new government started persecuting and k*****g all of the ethnic Mexicans in Souther California, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico and Texas, would Mexico have a right to invade to protect their ethnic people? That is a better analogy.

LR

Reply
 
 
May 13, 2022 22:16:28   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
LogicallyRight wrote:
Thanks for that. Put in my save file. Really sick stuff, but of course only Russia is guilty of war crimes.

LR


Yep. Blame Trump. Blame Russia. The entire western media is about that.

Reply
May 13, 2022 23:43:16   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
LogicallyRight wrote:
***None of this rises to the level that Putin has a right to invade a sovereign country. Would you be okay with Mexico invading the U.S. because i******s were being mistreated after crossing the border?
>>>Let's look at this right. If an outside source, say China, helped stage an illegal c**p in Washington, DC and the new government started persecuting and k*****g all of the ethnic Mexicans in Souther California, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico and Texas, would Mexico have a right to invade to protect their ethnic people? That is a better analogy.

LR
***None of this rises to the level that Putin has ... (show quote)


Yes, much better.

Reply
May 14, 2022 00:25:19   #
dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA
 
LogicallyRight wrote:
***None of this rises to the level that Putin has a right to invade a sovereign country. Would you be okay with Mexico invading the U.S. because i******s were being mistreated after crossing the border?
>>>Let's look at this right. If an outside source, say China, helped stage an illegal c**p in Washington, DC and the new government started persecuting and k*****g all of the ethnic Mexicans in Souther California, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico and Texas, would Mexico have a right to invade to protect their ethnic people? That is a better analogy.

LR
***None of this rises to the level that Putin has ... (show quote)


NO!

Reply
May 14, 2022 08:07:58   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
dtucker300 wrote:
NO!


The people in the donbas have as much right to liberty as you and me, do they not?

Reply
 
 
May 14, 2022 13:10:57   #
dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
The people in the donbas have as much right to liberty as you and me, do they not?


The people of Ukraine or the Russians? Is it okay to correct a wrong with another wrong?

Ukraine And The Cloud Of Genocide
by Norman M. Naimark
Tuesday, May 10, 2022
When confronted with the murderous policies of the Third Reich on the eastern front in the late summer of 1941, Winston Churchill stated: “We are in the presence of a crime without a name.” Three years later, the Polish-Jewish jurist Raphael Lemkin gave the crime the name of genocide. The powerful implications of that name descend like a dark cloud over the Russian invasion and occupation of parts of Ukraine today.

Lemkin had studied law at University of Lviv in the early 1920s (Lviv, today part of western Ukraine, was then called Lwów and was within the borders of Poland). He practiced international law in Warsaw before fleeing to the United States after the N**i invasion of Poland in 1939. Lemkin coined his famous term in a 1944 Carnegie Endowment publication: “The practices of extermination of nations and ethnic groups as carried out by the invaders [the N**is] is called by the author ‘genocide,’ a term deriving from the Greek word genos (tribe, race) and the Latin cide (by way of analogy, see homicide, fratricide).” Lemkin knew Ukraine well; he was one of the first to identify the Holodomor (K**ler Famine) of 1932­–33 that k**led some four million Ukrainians as a genocidal attempt on the part of Stalin’s regime to break the back of the Ukrainian nation.

Dedicated to establishing an international law that would proscribe genocide in the international system, Lemkin lobbied at the newly founded United Nations to pass a “Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide,” which it adopted unanimously on December 9, 1948. Here, genocide is identified as a series of acts—k*****g members of the group is the first mentioned—“committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, as such.” The emphasis here is firmly on the destruction of a “group, as such” and its ability to continue to function as a group. Among the other acts mentioned in the convention are: “causing bodily harm . . . to members of the group,” “deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction,” “imposing measures intended to prevent births,” and “forcibly t***sferring children of the group to another group.”

Even the quickest review of the events of the past ten weeks in Ukraine makes it evident that the Genocide Convention applies at least in part to the Russian actions in the Kyiv region revealed after the withdrawal of their forces. We still are uncertain of the extent of genocidal acts in the coastal city of Mariupol, but the pounding of the city’s civilian population, the revelation of mass graves, the forced evacuation of tens of thousands of citizens to Russia, the role of “filtration camps” in Rostov-on-Don, and the alleged relocation of Ukrainian children indicate an assault on Ukrainian nationality as such, which would constitute genocide.

Both Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy and US President Joseph Biden have accused the Russians of committing genocide in Ukraine. It is good they bring this up, if only to put Putin and the Russian elite on alert that they will be held accountable for their crimes. Certainly, the indications of genocide are there, even if the factual materials for a legal case have not yet been collected. One of the problems in coming to an unalloyed conclusion about genocide in Ukraine is that the evidence that has been released to the public is not conclusive and there is much we still do not know about the Russians’ actions and intentions. The war is far from over and the worst may be yet to come. Even at that, as we know from the bloodshed in Bosnia, evidence from mass graves can be turned up long after the actual fighting is over. Even in the case of the Holocaust, fresh evidence continues to be produced that can be used in cases against the few perpetrators still alive.

We know that the US Department of State is accumulating evidence against the Russians, as is the Ukrainian government, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), and a host of international NGOs. Most important, the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court (ICC), Karim A. A. Khan, was just in Ukraine, along with other investigators, reviewing and cataloguing the host of crimes committed by the Russians in Bucha, Irpin, and elsewhere. Most of these cases are linked to “war crimes” (willful k*****g, willful infliction of suffering, taking of hostages, etc.) and “crimes against humanity” (extermination, torture, rape and sexual s***ery, enforced disappearance, etc.), both of which are also subject to ICC prosecution. The crime of aggressive war, for which N**i leaders were tried and hanged at Nuremberg in 1946, also falls within the purview of the ICC. But by statute, the court cannot pursue the particular case of aggressive war—in contrast to war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide—against a country (Russia is one, the United States is another) that does not formally recognize the court’s jurisdiction.

There is also the crucial criterion of the perpetrators’ intentions in assessing genocide. Do Putin and his coterie of political and military leaders seek to destroy the Ukrainians as a national group as such? There is considerable evidence in the public domain to support this assertion. Putin’s historical screed of July 2021, “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians,” and a series of his speeches and off-the-cuff remarks deny the distinctiveness of the Ukrainian nation and its historical legitimacy. For Putin, Zelenskyy and his government represent the interests of neo-N**is and their American and European supporters. The goal of the Russian campaign in his view is the “den**ification” and de-militarization of Ukraine. These statements are mimicked by Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov; former president and deputy chairman of the Security Council of Russia Dmitry Medvedev; and other Kremlin leaders who refuse to take Ukrainian national identity seriously. In this view, anyone who asserts Ukrainian identity thus becomes an enemy.

Comments by some pro-Kremlin television commentators and journalists are even more blatantly genocidal. In an April 3, 2022, article released by Novosti, the semiofficial Russian news agency, the journalist Timofei Sergeitsev took a frightening step beyond Putin’s already baleful accusations of Ukrainian N**ism. He suggested that the bulk of the Ukrainian masses were “passive N**is” and “accomplices of N**ism” and should be subjected to re-education. The Ukrainians’ desire for independence and a European path was nothing more, he states, than pure N**ism, or what he called “Ukron**ism.” Margarita Simonyan, who heads up a Kremlin news group, inserted an even more toxic additive to this dangerous rhetoric: “What makes you a N**i is your bestial nature, your bestial hatred, and your bestial willingness to tear out the eyes of children on the basis of nationality.” It is hard to believe any Kremlin propagandists, given their mendacity, but given the viewpoints of many Russians, the media have succeeded in dehumanizing and diminishing the Ukrainians as a people, one of the signposts of genocide.

The extent to which the rhetoric has been t***slated into actions has become terrifyingly apparent. Simonyan’s diatribe about Ukrainians’ readiness “to tear out the eyes of children” was reflected in the signature, “for the children,” that was painted on the missile that the Russians lobbed into the train station at Kramatorsk, k*****g, among others, at least five children. One of the constant themes of Russian propaganda in the breakaway Donbass region since 2014 is that Ukrainians are k*****g and maiming children, even committing genocide.

Russian soldiers stop Ukrainian civilians at road blockades and guard posts to search for “N**is,” looking for nationalist tattoos on the men, in which case they are d**gged off to be interrogated, tortured, and worse. All it takes is for someone to be identified as having fought in a nationalist formation or even simply to be a good, patriotic Ukrainian for the Russians to wreak vengeance. The torture, executions, mass burials, indications of abuse, beatings, and rape—the senseless shelling of civilians in their homes and on the roads—leads one to believe that many Russian soldiers have absorbed the “Ukrainians are N**is” line that they have been fed by their government and officers. Even if they do not, they have no choice but to remain silent. Some desert or surrender readily, just as hundreds of thousands of Russian citizens have left their homeland for abroad, searching for respite from the Kremlin’s lying and oppression. But most stay at their posts and fight.

The war in Ukraine grinds on; genocide hangs in the air. Evidence is being collected by the day. Some Ukrainian jurists recommend that a trial of the perpetrators be arranged in Kharkiv, which was the site in December 1943 of the first trial of N**i perpetrators for their crimes against civilians in World War II. Putting Putin and his coterie on trial for genocide would not be easy and it will not happen soon. It took years after the 1995 Srebrenica massacre of Bosnian Muslims for former Serbian leader Slobodan Milošević to be brought to trial for genocide (Milošević died before a verdict could be rendered). The remaining Khmer Rouge leaders were brought to trial by the Cambodian tribunal only in 1997, almost two decades after they were responsible for k*****g more than a fifth of their population.

Like the war itself, the trials of its perpetrators will demand great patience and fortitude—above all, from the Ukrainians themselves.

Reply
May 14, 2022 15:21:17   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
dtucker300 wrote:
The people of Ukraine or the Russians? Is it okay to correct a wrong with another wrong?

Ukraine And The Cloud Of Genocide
by Norman M. Naimark
Tuesday, May 10, 2022
When confronted with the murderous policies of the Third Reich on the eastern front in the late summer of 1941, Winston Churchill stated: “We are in the presence of a crime without a name.” Three years later, the Polish-Jewish jurist Raphael Lemkin gave the crime the name of genocide. The powerful implications of that name descend like a dark cloud over the Russian invasion and occupation of parts of Ukraine today.

Lemkin had studied law at University of Lviv in the early 1920s (Lviv, today part of western Ukraine, was then called Lwów and was within the borders of Poland). He practiced international law in Warsaw before fleeing to the United States after the N**i invasion of Poland in 1939. Lemkin coined his famous term in a 1944 Carnegie Endowment publication: “The practices of extermination of nations and ethnic groups as carried out by the invaders [the N**is] is called by the author ‘genocide,’ a term deriving from the Greek word genos (tribe, race) and the Latin cide (by way of analogy, see homicide, fratricide).” Lemkin knew Ukraine well; he was one of the first to identify the Holodomor (K**ler Famine) of 1932­–33 that k**led some four million Ukrainians as a genocidal attempt on the part of Stalin’s regime to break the back of the Ukrainian nation.

Dedicated to establishing an international law that would proscribe genocide in the international system, Lemkin lobbied at the newly founded United Nations to pass a “Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide,” which it adopted unanimously on December 9, 1948. Here, genocide is identified as a series of acts—k*****g members of the group is the first mentioned—“committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, as such.” The emphasis here is firmly on the destruction of a “group, as such” and its ability to continue to function as a group. Among the other acts mentioned in the convention are: “causing bodily harm . . . to members of the group,” “deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction,” “imposing measures intended to prevent births,” and “forcibly t***sferring children of the group to another group.”

Even the quickest review of the events of the past ten weeks in Ukraine makes it evident that the Genocide Convention applies at least in part to the Russian actions in the Kyiv region revealed after the withdrawal of their forces. We still are uncertain of the extent of genocidal acts in the coastal city of Mariupol, but the pounding of the city’s civilian population, the revelation of mass graves, the forced evacuation of tens of thousands of citizens to Russia, the role of “filtration camps” in Rostov-on-Don, and the alleged relocation of Ukrainian children indicate an assault on Ukrainian nationality as such, which would constitute genocide.

Both Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy and US President Joseph Biden have accused the Russians of committing genocide in Ukraine. It is good they bring this up, if only to put Putin and the Russian elite on alert that they will be held accountable for their crimes. Certainly, the indications of genocide are there, even if the factual materials for a legal case have not yet been collected. One of the problems in coming to an unalloyed conclusion about genocide in Ukraine is that the evidence that has been released to the public is not conclusive and there is much we still do not know about the Russians’ actions and intentions. The war is far from over and the worst may be yet to come. Even at that, as we know from the bloodshed in Bosnia, evidence from mass graves can be turned up long after the actual fighting is over. Even in the case of the Holocaust, fresh evidence continues to be produced that can be used in cases against the few perpetrators still alive.

We know that the US Department of State is accumulating evidence against the Russians, as is the Ukrainian government, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), and a host of international NGOs. Most important, the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court (ICC), Karim A. A. Khan, was just in Ukraine, along with other investigators, reviewing and cataloguing the host of crimes committed by the Russians in Bucha, Irpin, and elsewhere. Most of these cases are linked to “war crimes” (willful k*****g, willful infliction of suffering, taking of hostages, etc.) and “crimes against humanity” (extermination, torture, rape and sexual s***ery, enforced disappearance, etc.), both of which are also subject to ICC prosecution. The crime of aggressive war, for which N**i leaders were tried and hanged at Nuremberg in 1946, also falls within the purview of the ICC. But by statute, the court cannot pursue the particular case of aggressive war—in contrast to war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide—against a country (Russia is one, the United States is another) that does not formally recognize the court’s jurisdiction.

There is also the crucial criterion of the perpetrators’ intentions in assessing genocide. Do Putin and his coterie of political and military leaders seek to destroy the Ukrainians as a national group as such? There is considerable evidence in the public domain to support this assertion. Putin’s historical screed of July 2021, “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians,” and a series of his speeches and off-the-cuff remarks deny the distinctiveness of the Ukrainian nation and its historical legitimacy. For Putin, Zelenskyy and his government represent the interests of neo-N**is and their American and European supporters. The goal of the Russian campaign in his view is the “den**ification” and de-militarization of Ukraine. These statements are mimicked by Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov; former president and deputy chairman of the Security Council of Russia Dmitry Medvedev; and other Kremlin leaders who refuse to take Ukrainian national identity seriously. In this view, anyone who asserts Ukrainian identity thus becomes an enemy.

Comments by some pro-Kremlin television commentators and journalists are even more blatantly genocidal. In an April 3, 2022, article released by Novosti, the semiofficial Russian news agency, the journalist Timofei Sergeitsev took a frightening step beyond Putin’s already baleful accusations of Ukrainian N**ism. He suggested that the bulk of the Ukrainian masses were “passive N**is” and “accomplices of N**ism” and should be subjected to re-education. The Ukrainians’ desire for independence and a European path was nothing more, he states, than pure N**ism, or what he called “Ukron**ism.” Margarita Simonyan, who heads up a Kremlin news group, inserted an even more toxic additive to this dangerous rhetoric: “What makes you a N**i is your bestial nature, your bestial hatred, and your bestial willingness to tear out the eyes of children on the basis of nationality.” It is hard to believe any Kremlin propagandists, given their mendacity, but given the viewpoints of many Russians, the media have succeeded in dehumanizing and diminishing the Ukrainians as a people, one of the signposts of genocide.

The extent to which the rhetoric has been t***slated into actions has become terrifyingly apparent. Simonyan’s diatribe about Ukrainians’ readiness “to tear out the eyes of children” was reflected in the signature, “for the children,” that was painted on the missile that the Russians lobbed into the train station at Kramatorsk, k*****g, among others, at least five children. One of the constant themes of Russian propaganda in the breakaway Donbass region since 2014 is that Ukrainians are k*****g and maiming children, even committing genocide.

Russian soldiers stop Ukrainian civilians at road blockades and guard posts to search for “N**is,” looking for nationalist tattoos on the men, in which case they are d**gged off to be interrogated, tortured, and worse. All it takes is for someone to be identified as having fought in a nationalist formation or even simply to be a good, patriotic Ukrainian for the Russians to wreak vengeance. The torture, executions, mass burials, indications of abuse, beatings, and rape—the senseless shelling of civilians in their homes and on the roads—leads one to believe that many Russian soldiers have absorbed the “Ukrainians are N**is” line that they have been fed by their government and officers. Even if they do not, they have no choice but to remain silent. Some desert or surrender readily, just as hundreds of thousands of Russian citizens have left their homeland for abroad, searching for respite from the Kremlin’s lying and oppression. But most stay at their posts and fight.

The war in Ukraine grinds on; genocide hangs in the air. Evidence is being collected by the day. Some Ukrainian jurists recommend that a trial of the perpetrators be arranged in Kharkiv, which was the site in December 1943 of the first trial of N**i perpetrators for their crimes against civilians in World War II. Putting Putin and his coterie on trial for genocide would not be easy and it will not happen soon. It took years after the 1995 Srebrenica massacre of Bosnian Muslims for former Serbian leader Slobodan Milošević to be brought to trial for genocide (Milošević died before a verdict could be rendered). The remaining Khmer Rouge leaders were brought to trial by the Cambodian tribunal only in 1997, almost two decades after they were responsible for k*****g more than a fifth of their population.

Like the war itself, the trials of its perpetrators will demand great patience and fortitude—above all, from the Ukrainians themselves.
The people of Ukraine or the Russians? Is it okay... (show quote)


The Ukraine military have k**led an estimated 14,000 in the donbas since the people of that region held a v**e to separate from the government in Kiev in 2014; this being after the illegal c**p aided by the west/USA. This includes several thousand children as well as men and women. They are mostly Russian nationals and Russian speaking Ukrainians and their families who have lived there for several generations, same as those in Crimea who even asked to be out from under control in Kiev as long ago as the early 900's before the break up of the USSR/before Ukraine.

You ask which peoples. This is them. The families and neighbors of those k**le by the Ukraine army since 2014.

Does 14,000 count as a genocide??

Reply
May 14, 2022 17:57:42   #
dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
The Ukraine military have k**led an estimated 14,000 in the donbas since the people of that region held a v**e to separate from the government in Kiev in 2014; this being after the illegal c**p aided by the west/USA. This includes several thousand children as well as men and women. They are mostly Russian nationals and Russian speaking Ukrainians and their families who have lived there for several generations, same as those in Crimea who even asked to be out from under control in Kiev as long ago as the early 900's before the break up of the USSR/before Ukraine.

You ask which peoples. This is them. The families and neighbors of those k**le by the Ukraine army since 2014.

Does 14,000 count as a genocide??
The Ukraine military have k**led an estimated 14,0... (show quote)


You keep repeating this. It isn't as simple as all that. What about the Ukrainians who are not ethnic Russians that have been k**led, and the war crimes committed by Russia's military? Two wrongs don't make a right. Does one count as genocide? How about 10 or 100? At what number does it become a genocide? If you want to go back hundreds of years in history I can cite case after case of mistreatment and ethnic cleansing all over the world. One difference now is that Ukraine has a legitimately elected democratic leader who was not in office during those years. Russia, on the other hand, has a poseur as a president who murdered, c***ted, and lied his way into that position. The Russians or I should say the Soviets, treated Ukraine as a stepchild and still does. Putin has used every phony excuse he can think of to justify his invasion of Ukraine. Maybe you convinced others here, if so, so be it. You raised some difficult questions. However, you failed to convince me.

Finland Responds to Russia Vowing 'Retaliatory Steps' Over NATO Move
Isabel van Brugen - Yesterday 7:59 AM

Finland responded on Friday to Russia's vow to take "retaliatory steps" over the country's plans to apply to join the NATO military alliance.

It comes after the Kremlin said that it "will be left with no choice but to respond" after Finland's President Sauli Niinistö and Prime Minister Sanna Marin issued a joint statement saying that their country must apply to join NATO "without delay."

Russia's Foreign Ministry warned that the Kremlin "will be forced to take retaliatory steps, both of a military-technical and other nature, in order to stop threats to its national security arising."

Responding to the threats, Finland's Foreign Ministry said in a statement to Newsweek that Finland "is a sovereign state and makes independent decisions on its security and defense."

"Finland is aware of the various challenges involved in the NATO membership process, and is prepared for diverse hybrid and cyber threats and military means of pressure," the ministry said.

Finland, alongside its Nordic neighbor Sweden, has deliberated about applying to join the alliance since Russia invaded Ukraine in February.

The two countries joining NATO after decades of military non-alignment would mark a major change in their security policy and a dramatic shift in Europe's security landscape.

The Kremlin acknowledged in its warning that Finland joining NATO "is a radical change in the country's foreign policy."

"Helsinki must be aware of the responsibility and consequences of such a move," Russia's foreign ministry said Thursday.

Finland's foreign ministry told Newsweek that "NATO is a defense alliance and it does not threaten Russia."

Russia previously threatened "serious military-political repercussions" if Finland and Sweden were to join the alliance. Moscow has warned that the move "will not bring stability" to Europe. It sees the expansion of NATO as a national security threat. (And Russia's invasion of Ukraine is a serious security threat. my words).

Russia and Finland share an 810-mile border.

The Kremlin "has previously noted that the accession of Finland to NATO would result in military-political consequences and would require Russia to rebalance the situation," Finland's foreign ministry added.(That sure sounds threatening to me.)

News that Finland plans to apply to join NATO was praised by Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, who said in a statement on Twitter that he and Niinistö had discussed "Ukraine's European integration. And [Ukraine] - [Finland] defense interaction" over the phone.

Other NATO leaders from Denmark, Estonia, and Romania have also expressed support for Finland joining the alliance.

NATO's Secretary-General, Jens Stoltenberg, said Finland would be "warmly welcomed" into the t***s-Atlantic alliance. The process would be "smooth and swift," he said.

Newsweek has contacted Russia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs for additional comment.

(Putin overplayed his hand, bit off more than he can chew, and is paying the consequences. His military and conscripts don't support this expeditionary force into Ukraine. The fear is that he will react like a bear backed into a corner with no escape and lash-out as a crazy person would.)

Reply
May 15, 2022 08:17:18   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
dtucker300 wrote:
You keep repeating this. It isn't as simple as all that. What about the Ukrainians who are not ethnic Russians that have been k**led, and the war crimes committed by Russia's military? Two wrongs don't make a right. Does one count as genocide? How about 10 or 100? At what number does it become a genocide? If you want to go back hundreds of years in history I can cite case after case of mistreatment and ethnic cleansing all over the world. One difference now is that Ukraine has a legitimately elected democratic leader who was not in office during those years. Russia, on the other hand, has a poseur as a president who murdered, c***ted, and lied his way into that position. The Russians or I should say the Soviets, treated Ukraine as a stepchild and still does. Putin has used every phony excuse he can think of to justify his invasion of Ukraine. Maybe you convinced others here, if so, so be it. You raised some difficult questions. However, you failed to convince me.

Finland Responds to Russia Vowing 'Retaliatory Steps' Over NATO Move
Isabel van Brugen - Yesterday 7:59 AM

Finland responded on Friday to Russia's vow to take "retaliatory steps" over the country's plans to apply to join the NATO military alliance.

It comes after the Kremlin said that it "will be left with no choice but to respond" after Finland's President Sauli Niinistö and Prime Minister Sanna Marin issued a joint statement saying that their country must apply to join NATO "without delay."

Russia's Foreign Ministry warned that the Kremlin "will be forced to take retaliatory steps, both of a military-technical and other nature, in order to stop threats to its national security arising."

Responding to the threats, Finland's Foreign Ministry said in a statement to Newsweek that Finland "is a sovereign state and makes independent decisions on its security and defense."

"Finland is aware of the various challenges involved in the NATO membership process, and is prepared for diverse hybrid and cyber threats and military means of pressure," the ministry said.

Finland, alongside its Nordic neighbor Sweden, has deliberated about applying to join the alliance since Russia invaded Ukraine in February.

The two countries joining NATO after decades of military non-alignment would mark a major change in their security policy and a dramatic shift in Europe's security landscape.

The Kremlin acknowledged in its warning that Finland joining NATO "is a radical change in the country's foreign policy."

"Helsinki must be aware of the responsibility and consequences of such a move," Russia's foreign ministry said Thursday.

Finland's foreign ministry told Newsweek that "NATO is a defense alliance and it does not threaten Russia."

Russia previously threatened "serious military-political repercussions" if Finland and Sweden were to join the alliance. Moscow has warned that the move "will not bring stability" to Europe. It sees the expansion of NATO as a national security threat. (And Russia's invasion of Ukraine is a serious security threat. my words).

Russia and Finland share an 810-mile border.

The Kremlin "has previously noted that the accession of Finland to NATO would result in military-political consequences and would require Russia to rebalance the situation," Finland's foreign ministry added.(That sure sounds threatening to me.)

News that Finland plans to apply to join NATO was praised by Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, who said in a statement on Twitter that he and Niinistö had discussed "Ukraine's European integration. And [Ukraine] - [Finland] defense interaction" over the phone.

Other NATO leaders from Denmark, Estonia, and Romania have also expressed support for Finland joining the alliance.

NATO's Secretary-General, Jens Stoltenberg, said Finland would be "warmly welcomed" into the t***s-Atlantic alliance. The process would be "smooth and swift," he said.

Newsweek has contacted Russia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs for additional comment.

(Putin overplayed his hand, bit off more than he can chew, and is paying the consequences. His military and conscripts don't support this expeditionary force into Ukraine. The fear is that he will react like a bear backed into a corner with no escape and lash-out as a crazy person would.)
You keep repeating this. It isn't as simple as al... (show quote)


Of the 14000 k**led in the donbas by Ukraine shelling, some 3000 are children.

A Ukrain soldier was video'd saying he didn't want to know what he was shelling, so he could sleep at night.

Those are your war crimes, sir. Pitin went in to stop it.

Reply
 
 
May 15, 2022 20:04:32   #
LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago
 
dtucker300 wrote:
The people of Ukraine or the Russians? Is it okay to correct a wrong with another wrong?

Ukraine And The Cloud Of Genocide
by Norman M. Naimark
Tuesday, May 10, 2022
When confronted with the murderous policies of the Third Reich on the eastern front in the late summer of 1941, Winston Churchill stated: “We are in the presence of a crime without a name.” Three years later, the Polish-Jewish jurist Raphael Lemkin gave the crime the name of genocide. The powerful implications of that name descend like a dark cloud over the Russian invasion and occupation of parts of Ukraine today.

Lemkin had studied law at University of Lviv in the early 1920s (Lviv, today part of western Ukraine, was then called Lwów and was within the borders of Poland). He practiced international law in Warsaw before fleeing to the United States after the N**i invasion of Poland in 1939. Lemkin coined his famous term in a 1944 Carnegie Endowment publication: “The practices of extermination of nations and ethnic groups as carried out by the invaders [the N**is] is called by the author ‘genocide,’ a term deriving from the Greek word genos (tribe, race) and the Latin cide (by way of analogy, see homicide, fratricide).” Lemkin knew Ukraine well; he was one of the first to identify the Holodomor (K**ler Famine) of 1932­–33 that k**led some four million Ukrainians as a genocidal attempt on the part of Stalin’s regime to break the back of the Ukrainian nation.

Dedicated to establishing an international law that would proscribe genocide in the international system, Lemkin lobbied at the newly founded United Nations to pass a “Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide,” which it adopted unanimously on December 9, 1948. Here, genocide is identified as a series of acts—k*****g members of the group is the first mentioned—“committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, as such.” The emphasis here is firmly on the destruction of a “group, as such” and its ability to continue to function as a group. Among the other acts mentioned in the convention are: “causing bodily harm . . . to members of the group,” “deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction,” “imposing measures intended to prevent births,” and “forcibly t***sferring children of the group to another group.”

Even the quickest review of the events of the past ten weeks in Ukraine makes it evident that the Genocide Convention applies at least in part to the Russian actions in the Kyiv region revealed after the withdrawal of their forces. We still are uncertain of the extent of genocidal acts in the coastal city of Mariupol, but the pounding of the city’s civilian population, the revelation of mass graves, the forced evacuation of tens of thousands of citizens to Russia, the role of “filtration camps” in Rostov-on-Don, and the alleged relocation of Ukrainian children indicate an assault on Ukrainian nationality as such, which would constitute genocide.

Both Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy and US President Joseph Biden have accused the Russians of committing genocide in Ukraine. It is good they bring this up, if only to put Putin and the Russian elite on alert that they will be held accountable for their crimes. Certainly, the indications of genocide are there, even if the factual materials for a legal case have not yet been collected. One of the problems in coming to an unalloyed conclusion about genocide in Ukraine is that the evidence that has been released to the public is not conclusive and there is much we still do not know about the Russians’ actions and intentions. The war is far from over and the worst may be yet to come. Even at that, as we know from the bloodshed in Bosnia, evidence from mass graves can be turned up long after the actual fighting is over. Even in the case of the Holocaust, fresh evidence continues to be produced that can be used in cases against the few perpetrators still alive.

We know that the US Department of State is accumulating evidence against the Russians, as is the Ukrainian government, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), and a host of international NGOs. Most important, the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court (ICC), Karim A. A. Khan, was just in Ukraine, along with other investigators, reviewing and cataloguing the host of crimes committed by the Russians in Bucha, Irpin, and elsewhere. Most of these cases are linked to “war crimes” (willful k*****g, willful infliction of suffering, taking of hostages, etc.) and “crimes against humanity” (extermination, torture, rape and sexual s***ery, enforced disappearance, etc.), both of which are also subject to ICC prosecution. The crime of aggressive war, for which N**i leaders were tried and hanged at Nuremberg in 1946, also falls within the purview of the ICC. But by statute, the court cannot pursue the particular case of aggressive war—in contrast to war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide—against a country (Russia is one, the United States is another) that does not formally recognize the court’s jurisdiction.

There is also the crucial criterion of the perpetrators’ intentions in assessing genocide. Do Putin and his coterie of political and military leaders seek to destroy the Ukrainians as a national group as such? There is considerable evidence in the public domain to support this assertion. Putin’s historical screed of July 2021, “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians,” and a series of his speeches and off-the-cuff remarks deny the distinctiveness of the Ukrainian nation and its historical legitimacy. For Putin, Zelenskyy and his government represent the interests of neo-N**is and their American and European supporters. The goal of the Russian campaign in his view is the “den**ification” and de-militarization of Ukraine. These statements are mimicked by Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov; former president and deputy chairman of the Security Council of Russia Dmitry Medvedev; and other Kremlin leaders who refuse to take Ukrainian national identity seriously. In this view, anyone who asserts Ukrainian identity thus becomes an enemy.

Comments by some pro-Kremlin television commentators and journalists are even more blatantly genocidal. In an April 3, 2022, article released by Novosti, the semiofficial Russian news agency, the journalist Timofei Sergeitsev took a frightening step beyond Putin’s already baleful accusations of Ukrainian N**ism. He suggested that the bulk of the Ukrainian masses were “passive N**is” and “accomplices of N**ism” and should be subjected to re-education. The Ukrainians’ desire for independence and a European path was nothing more, he states, than pure N**ism, or what he called “Ukron**ism.” Margarita Simonyan, who heads up a Kremlin news group, inserted an even more toxic additive to this dangerous rhetoric: “What makes you a N**i is your bestial nature, your bestial hatred, and your bestial willingness to tear out the eyes of children on the basis of nationality.” It is hard to believe any Kremlin propagandists, given their mendacity, but given the viewpoints of many Russians, the media have succeeded in dehumanizing and diminishing the Ukrainians as a people, one of the signposts of genocide.

The extent to which the rhetoric has been t***slated into actions has become terrifyingly apparent. Simonyan’s diatribe about Ukrainians’ readiness “to tear out the eyes of children” was reflected in the signature, “for the children,” that was painted on the missile that the Russians lobbed into the train station at Kramatorsk, k*****g, among others, at least five children. One of the constant themes of Russian propaganda in the breakaway Donbass region since 2014 is that Ukrainians are k*****g and maiming children, even committing genocide.

Russian soldiers stop Ukrainian civilians at road blockades and guard posts to search for “N**is,” looking for nationalist tattoos on the men, in which case they are d**gged off to be interrogated, tortured, and worse. All it takes is for someone to be identified as having fought in a nationalist formation or even simply to be a good, patriotic Ukrainian for the Russians to wreak vengeance. The torture, executions, mass burials, indications of abuse, beatings, and rape—the senseless shelling of civilians in their homes and on the roads—leads one to believe that many Russian soldiers have absorbed the “Ukrainians are N**is” line that they have been fed by their government and officers. Even if they do not, they have no choice but to remain silent. Some desert or surrender readily, just as hundreds of thousands of Russian citizens have left their homeland for abroad, searching for respite from the Kremlin’s lying and oppression. But most stay at their posts and fight.

The war in Ukraine grinds on; genocide hangs in the air. Evidence is being collected by the day. Some Ukrainian jurists recommend that a trial of the perpetrators be arranged in Kharkiv, which was the site in December 1943 of the first trial of N**i perpetrators for their crimes against civilians in World War II. Putting Putin and his coterie on trial for genocide would not be easy and it will not happen soon. It took years after the 1995 Srebrenica massacre of Bosnian Muslims for former Serbian leader Slobodan Milošević to be brought to trial for genocide (Milošević died before a verdict could be rendered). The remaining Khmer Rouge leaders were brought to trial by the Cambodian tribunal only in 1997, almost two decades after they were responsible for k*****g more than a fifth of their population.

Like the war itself, the trials of its perpetrators will demand great patience and fortitude—above all, from the Ukrainians themselves.
The people of Ukraine or the Russians? Is it okay... (show quote)


All biased crap. The Ukrainians and their m*****as have perpetrated these very crimes in the donbass area for 8 years now. When you recognize were all of the genocide in Ukraine started, then we an talk about what the Russians might have done. But this one way s**t don't cut it.

Reply
May 15, 2022 20:15:19   #
LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago
 
dtucker300 wrote:
You keep repeating this. It isn't as simple as all that. What about the Ukrainians who are not ethnic Russians that have been k**led, and the war crimes committed by Russia's military? Two wrongs don't make a right. Does one count as genocide? How about 10 or 100? At what number does it become a genocide? If you want to go back hundreds of years in history I can cite case after case of mistreatment and ethnic cleansing all over the world. One difference now is that Ukraine has a legitimately elected democratic leader who was not in office during those years. Russia, on the other hand, has a poseur as a president who murdered, c***ted, and lied his way into that position. The Russians or I should say the Soviets, treated Ukraine as a stepchild and still does. Putin has used every phony excuse he can think of to justify his invasion of Ukraine. Maybe you convinced others here, if so, so be it. You raised some difficult questions. However, you failed to convince me.

Finland Responds to Russia Vowing 'Retaliatory Steps' Over NATO Move
Isabel van Brugen - Yesterday 7:59 AM

Finland responded on Friday to Russia's vow to take "retaliatory steps" over the country's plans to apply to join the NATO military alliance.

It comes after the Kremlin said that it "will be left with no choice but to respond" after Finland's President Sauli Niinistö and Prime Minister Sanna Marin issued a joint statement saying that their country must apply to join NATO "without delay."

Russia's Foreign Ministry warned that the Kremlin "will be forced to take retaliatory steps, both of a military-technical and other nature, in order to stop threats to its national security arising."

Responding to the threats, Finland's Foreign Ministry said in a statement to Newsweek that Finland "is a sovereign state and makes independent decisions on its security and defense."

"Finland is aware of the various challenges involved in the NATO membership process, and is prepared for diverse hybrid and cyber threats and military means of pressure," the ministry said.

Finland, alongside its Nordic neighbor Sweden, has deliberated about applying to join the alliance since Russia invaded Ukraine in February.

The two countries joining NATO after decades of military non-alignment would mark a major change in their security policy and a dramatic shift in Europe's security landscape.

The Kremlin acknowledged in its warning that Finland joining NATO "is a radical change in the country's foreign policy."

"Helsinki must be aware of the responsibility and consequences of such a move," Russia's foreign ministry said Thursday.

Finland's foreign ministry told Newsweek that "NATO is a defense alliance and it does not threaten Russia."

Russia previously threatened "serious military-political repercussions" if Finland and Sweden were to join the alliance. Moscow has warned that the move "will not bring stability" to Europe. It sees the expansion of NATO as a national security threat. (And Russia's invasion of Ukraine is a serious security threat. my words).

Russia and Finland share an 810-mile border.

The Kremlin "has previously noted that the accession of Finland to NATO would result in military-political consequences and would require Russia to rebalance the situation," Finland's foreign ministry added.(That sure sounds threatening to me.)

News that Finland plans to apply to join NATO was praised by Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, who said in a statement on Twitter that he and Niinistö had discussed "Ukraine's European integration. And [Ukraine] - [Finland] defense interaction" over the phone.

Other NATO leaders from Denmark, Estonia, and Romania have also expressed support for Finland joining the alliance.

NATO's Secretary-General, Jens Stoltenberg, said Finland would be "warmly welcomed" into the t***s-Atlantic alliance. The process would be "smooth and swift," he said.

Newsweek has contacted Russia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs for additional comment.

(Putin overplayed his hand, bit off more than he can chew, and is paying the consequences. His military and conscripts don't support this expeditionary force into Ukraine. The fear is that he will react like a bear backed into a corner with no escape and lash-out as a crazy person would.)
You keep repeating this. It isn't as simple as al... (show quote)


We're talking about going back 8 years in the Donbass area and not several generations. When you are willing to start there, then we can talk about what happened,. real of imagined, eight years later. But a one sided view doesn't cut it. You know better then that and you are letting hatred and propaganda sway your ability to think logically.

As for Finland, the Russian retaliation might be simply stopping trade or the limited amount of oil it provides. Putin is not looking for a war with Finland also. They have had mutual beneficial dialog for many years now. And the Finnish Government is not there because of an illegal c**p. They are friends with Russia.

The only need for Finland to join NATO would be to protect themselves from Russia.
The only need to protect themselves from Russia is if they joined Russia. Hopefully prudence and time will discourage them, and they will decide it is in their best interests to stay neutral. It is. Fact.

Reply
May 15, 2022 20:26:39   #
dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA
 
LogicallyRight wrote:
We're talking about going back 8 years in the Donbass area and not several generations. When you are willing to start there, then we can talk about what happened,. real of imagined, eight years later. But a one sided view doesn't cut it. You know better then that and you are letting hatred and propaganda sway your ability to think logically.

As for Finland, the Russian retaliation might be simply stopping trade or the limited amount of oil it provides. Putin is not looking for a war with Finland also. They have had mutual beneficial dialog for many years now. And the Finnish Government is not there because of an illegal c**p. They are friends with Russia.

The only need for Finland to join NATO would be to protect themselves from Russia.
The only need to protect themselves from Russia is if they joined Russia. Hopefully prudence and time will discourage them, and they will decide it is in their best interests to stay neutral. It is. Fact.
We're talking about going back 8 years in the Donb... (show quote)


We're talking about Ukraine and Russia and I didn't start the one-way crap posting. History goes a long way back and people have much longer memories there than in the US.

Finland had to protect themselves from the USSR in 1939.

Reply
Page <prev 2 of 2
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Main
OnePoliticalPlaza.com - Forum
Copyright 2012-2024 IDF International Technologies, Inc.