One Political Plaza - Home of politics
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Main
Putin’s Two Big Lies
Page 1 of 2 next>
May 12, 2022 15:17:25   #
dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA
 
Putin’s Two Big Lies
Posted Wednesday, May 11, 2022 | By AMAC Newsline
AMAC Exclusive – By Ben Solis

putin
As the invasion of Ukraine continues, Russian President Vladimir Putin took to the podium in Red Square in Moscow on Monday to celebrate Victory Day, the annual commemoration of the defeat of N**i Germany in World War II. In his speech, Putin drew numerous links between the war in Ukraine and the fight against the N**is, underscoring just how much the Russian leader is relying on false narratives about both conflicts to maintain his control over Russia, a country rapidly descending into economic and cultural ruin.

In the speech on Monday, Putin told Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine that they are “fighting for the same thing their fathers and grandfathers did,” alluding to his use of “de-N**ification” as a pretext for invading the country. Putin further claimed that Russia was “forced” to invade Ukraine by NATO, drawing on another familiar trope in Russian history of the Soviet Union being the victim of Western aggression.

Though some leaders feared that Putin may use the speech as an occasion to declare an escalation of hostilities, no such announcement was made. However, neither was there any indication that Putin intends to call off the assault anytime soon. The fact that Putin was so adamant about drawing parallels between this conflict and the Second World War suggests that he views the war in Ukraine as an equally existential crisis.

Putin’s gross rewriting of history this week was not altogether surprising, given his past statements. At a meeting with young historians two years ago, Putin claimed that there was nothing wrong with the N**i-Soviet Nonaggression Pact, which allowed the two countries to carve up Poland and commit mass atrocities against its population. He also blamed Britain and France for Hitler’s assault on Europe, claiming that the ill-fated Munich Agreement destroyed any chance for a united anti-f*****t front.

For Putin, it is essential to pass on to future generations a memory of World War II that has Soviet Russia as the central hero, overcoming the shortcomings of the Western powers to defeat Hitler essentially alone.

This narrative ignores the t***h of the matter, which is that Soviet Russia was kept alive in the months following Hitler’s invasion, thanks in large part to massive quantities of supplies shipped from the United States through the Lend-Lease Act. Moreover, the Soviet liberation of Berlin, a central tenet of Putin’s assertions about Russian predominance in World War II, was only accomplished as a result of a plan agreed upon by Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin at the Yalta Conference in February of 1945. While it is feasible that the Western Allies could have reached Berlin first, Churchill and Roosevelt agreed to slow their advance, thus delivering Stalin his much-coveted propaganda victory of raising the Soviet f**g over the Reichstag.

According to Dr. Earl Ziemke, a historian with the United States Army, the Soviet contribution to the victory in Europe was important but not overwhelming. Far from “liberating” countries from N**i rule, the Red Army’s march through Eastern Europe in 1944 and 1945 only traded one tyrant for another, as the countries within the Soviet sphere were forced to endure another five decades of persecution. In Bulgaria and Czechoslovakia, the Red Army staged sham battles to justify their invasion and occupation, meeting no actual German resistance.

But despite a long list of verifiable inaccuracies, the myth of Soviet predominance in World War II has been upheld by successive generations of Russian leaders and scholars and is now being used to sell another lie – the Kremlin’s stated rationale for the invasion of Ukraine. Having found no other way to mask his territorial ambitions, Putin has turned to stoking fears about f*****m.

But whether or not Putin’s gamble will pay off remains to be seen. In a world of instant communication and 24/7 news coverage, videos and images undercutting Putin’s narrative and showing the wanton destruction wrought on the Ukrainian people by the Russian Army are widespread.

Worse for Putin, the false narrative about the Soviet Union in World War II and the lie underpinning Russia’s invasion of Ukraine may now be codependent on one another. Should either come crashing down, the other may soon follow. For a people who have been raised to believe the official government narrative on every aspect of Russian history, facing this reality would be absolutely devastating – and may leave Putin with an even more tenuous grip on power.

Reply
May 12, 2022 17:35:37   #
LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago
 
dtucker300 wrote:
Putin’s Two Big Lies
Posted Wednesday, May 11, 2022 | By AMAC Newsline
AMAC Exclusive – By Ben Solis

putin
As the invasion of Ukraine continues, Russian President Vladimir Putin took to the podium in Red Square in Moscow on Monday to celebrate Victory Day, the annual commemoration of the defeat of N**i Germany in World War II. In his speech, Putin drew numerous links between the war in Ukraine and the fight against the N**is, underscoring just how much the Russian leader is relying on false narratives about both conflicts to maintain his control over Russia, a country rapidly descending into economic and cultural ruin.

In the speech on Monday, Putin told Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine that they are “fighting for the same thing their fathers and grandfathers did,” alluding to his use of “de-N**ification” as a pretext for invading the country. Putin further claimed that Russia was “forced” to invade Ukraine by NATO, drawing on another familiar trope in Russian history of the Soviet Union being the victim of Western aggression.

Though some leaders feared that Putin may use the speech as an occasion to declare an escalation of hostilities, no such announcement was made. However, neither was there any indication that Putin intends to call off the assault anytime soon. The fact that Putin was so adamant about drawing parallels between this conflict and the Second World War suggests that he views the war in Ukraine as an equally existential crisis.

Putin’s gross rewriting of history this week was not altogether surprising, given his past statements. At a meeting with young historians two years ago, Putin claimed that there was nothing wrong with the N**i-Soviet Nonaggression Pact, which allowed the two countries to carve up Poland and commit mass atrocities against its population. He also blamed Britain and France for Hitler’s assault on Europe, claiming that the ill-fated Munich Agreement destroyed any chance for a united anti-f*****t front.

For Putin, it is essential to pass on to future generations a memory of World War II that has Soviet Russia as the central hero, overcoming the shortcomings of the Western powers to defeat Hitler essentially alone.

This narrative ignores the t***h of the matter, which is that Soviet Russia was kept alive in the months following Hitler’s invasion, thanks in large part to massive quantities of supplies shipped from the United States through the Lend-Lease Act. Moreover, the Soviet liberation of Berlin, a central tenet of Putin’s assertions about Russian predominance in World War II, was only accomplished as a result of a plan agreed upon by Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin at the Yalta Conference in February of 1945. While it is feasible that the Western Allies could have reached Berlin first, Churchill and Roosevelt agreed to slow their advance, thus delivering Stalin his much-coveted propaganda victory of raising the Soviet f**g over the Reichstag.

According to Dr. Earl Ziemke, a historian with the United States Army, the Soviet contribution to the victory in Europe was important but not overwhelming. Far from “liberating” countries from N**i rule, the Red Army’s march through Eastern Europe in 1944 and 1945 only traded one tyrant for another, as the countries within the Soviet sphere were forced to endure another five decades of persecution. In Bulgaria and Czechoslovakia, the Red Army staged sham battles to justify their invasion and occupation, meeting no actual German resistance.

But despite a long list of verifiable inaccuracies, the myth of Soviet predominance in World War II has been upheld by successive generations of Russian leaders and scholars and is now being used to sell another lie – the Kremlin’s stated rationale for the invasion of Ukraine. Having found no other way to mask his territorial ambitions, Putin has turned to stoking fears about f*****m.

But whether or not Putin’s gamble will pay off remains to be seen. In a world of instant communication and 24/7 news coverage, videos and images undercutting Putin’s narrative and showing the wanton destruction wrought on the Ukrainian people by the Russian Army are widespread.

Worse for Putin, the false narrative about the Soviet Union in World War II and the lie underpinning Russia’s invasion of Ukraine may now be codependent on one another. Should either come crashing down, the other may soon follow. For a people who have been raised to believe the official government narrative on every aspect of Russian history, facing this reality would be absolutely devastating – and may leave Putin with an even more tenuous grip on power.
Putin’s Two Big Lies br Posted Wednesday, May 11, ... (show quote)


I'm not aware of everything eluded to in that article, but there is this statement, "Putin further claimed that Russia was “forced” to invade Ukraine by NATO, drawing on another familiar trope in Russian history of the Soviet Union being the victim of Western aggression." On that I agree and NATO has been moving in on Russia ever since Clinton opened up NATO expansion to Poland, etc. He does not want a Soviet empire, but he does want a secure Russia and Ukraine and NATO ambitions represented a real threat to Russia and they were forced to act. It is more complicated then that, but if NATO disbanded, this would never have happened. FACT

Logically Right

Reply
May 12, 2022 21:40:37   #
dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA
 
LogicallyRight wrote:
I'm not aware of everything eluded to in that article, but there is this statement, "Putin further claimed that Russia was “forced” to invade Ukraine by NATO, drawing on another familiar trope in Russian history of the Soviet Union being the victim of Western aggression." On that I agree and NATO has been moving in on Russia ever since Clinton opened up NATO expansion to Poland, etc. He does not want a Soviet empire, but he does want a secure Russia and Ukraine and NATO ambitions represented a real threat to Russia and they were forced to act. It is more complicated then that, but if NATO disbanded, this would never have happened. FACT

Logically Right
I'm not aware of everything eluded to in that arti... (show quote)


It's a question of which came first, the chicken or the egg. NATO was formed to counter the Soviet Warsaw Pact. It expanded because of Putin's stance toward the west. He is as much responsible because of his own actions. NATO has never been a threat to Russia unless Russia has acted threateningly toward the west.

Reply
 
 
May 13, 2022 08:44:48   #
Snoopy
 
LogicallyRight wrote:
I'm not aware of everything eluded to in that article, but there is this statement, "Putin further claimed that Russia was “forced” to invade Ukraine by NATO, drawing on another familiar trope in Russian history of the Soviet Union being the victim of Western aggression." On that I agree and NATO has been moving in on Russia ever since Clinton opened up NATO expansion to Poland, etc. He does not want a Soviet empire, but he does want a secure Russia and Ukraine and NATO ambitions represented a real threat to Russia and they were forced to act. It is more complicated then that, but if NATO disbanded, this would never have happened. FACT

Logically Right
I'm not aware of everything eluded to in that arti... (show quote)


Russia, in a treaty, accepted nuclear weapons from the Ukraine in exchange for peaceful co-existence. Russia violated this agreement. So much for trusting Russia on ANY AGREEMENT THEY SIGN!

Russia had no right to invade the Ukraine

Reply
May 13, 2022 10:40:12   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
LogicallyRight wrote:
I'm not aware of everything eluded to in that article, but there is this statement, "Putin further claimed that Russia was “forced” to invade Ukraine by NATO, drawing on another familiar trope in Russian history of the Soviet Union being the victim of Western aggression." On that I agree and NATO has been moving in on Russia ever since Clinton opened up NATO expansion to Poland, etc. He does not want a Soviet empire, but he does want a secure Russia and Ukraine and NATO ambitions represented a real threat to Russia and they were forced to act. It is more complicated then that, but if NATO disbanded, this would never have happened. FACT

Logically Right
I'm not aware of everything eluded to in that arti... (show quote)


Yep, and now Finland is wanting to join NATO STAT. How many times in the past 20 or so years has NATO expanded towards Russia? And now, it seems the entire west is willing to finance a war against Russia, but Russia is supposed to assume NATO and the west are no threat. Seems to me, if I were a Russian, the writing is on the wall.

Reply
May 13, 2022 10:59:20   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
dtucker300 wrote:
Putin’s Two Big Lies
Posted Wednesday, May 11, 2022 | By AMAC Newsline
AMAC Exclusive – By Ben Solis

putin
As the invasion of Ukraine continues, Russian President Vladimir Putin took to the podium in Red Square in Moscow on Monday to celebrate Victory Day, the annual commemoration of the defeat of N**i Germany in World War II. In his speech, Putin drew numerous links between the war in Ukraine and the fight against the N**is, underscoring just how much the Russian leader is relying on false narratives about both conflicts to maintain his control over Russia, a country rapidly descending into economic and cultural ruin.

In the speech on Monday, Putin told Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine that they are “fighting for the same thing their fathers and grandfathers did,” alluding to his use of “de-N**ification” as a pretext for invading the country. Putin further claimed that Russia was “forced” to invade Ukraine by NATO, drawing on another familiar trope in Russian history of the Soviet Union being the victim of Western aggression.

Though some leaders feared that Putin may use the speech as an occasion to declare an escalation of hostilities, no such announcement was made. However, neither was there any indication that Putin intends to call off the assault anytime soon. The fact that Putin was so adamant about drawing parallels between this conflict and the Second World War suggests that he views the war in Ukraine as an equally existential crisis.

Putin’s gross rewriting of history this week was not altogether surprising, given his past statements. At a meeting with young historians two years ago, Putin claimed that there was nothing wrong with the N**i-Soviet Nonaggression Pact, which allowed the two countries to carve up Poland and commit mass atrocities against its population. He also blamed Britain and France for Hitler’s assault on Europe, claiming that the ill-fated Munich Agreement destroyed any chance for a united anti-f*****t front.

For Putin, it is essential to pass on to future generations a memory of World War II that has Soviet Russia as the central hero, overcoming the shortcomings of the Western powers to defeat Hitler essentially alone.

This narrative ignores the t***h of the matter, which is that Soviet Russia was kept alive in the months following Hitler’s invasion, thanks in large part to massive quantities of supplies shipped from the United States through the Lend-Lease Act. Moreover, the Soviet liberation of Berlin, a central tenet of Putin’s assertions about Russian predominance in World War II, was only accomplished as a result of a plan agreed upon by Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin at the Yalta Conference in February of 1945. While it is feasible that the Western Allies could have reached Berlin first, Churchill and Roosevelt agreed to slow their advance, thus delivering Stalin his much-coveted propaganda victory of raising the Soviet f**g over the Reichstag.

According to Dr. Earl Ziemke, a historian with the United States Army, the Soviet contribution to the victory in Europe was important but not overwhelming. Far from “liberating” countries from N**i rule, the Red Army’s march through Eastern Europe in 1944 and 1945 only traded one tyrant for another, as the countries within the Soviet sphere were forced to endure another five decades of persecution. In Bulgaria and Czechoslovakia, the Red Army staged sham battles to justify their invasion and occupation, meeting no actual German resistance.

But despite a long list of verifiable inaccuracies, the myth of Soviet predominance in World War II has been upheld by successive generations of Russian leaders and scholars and is now being used to sell another lie – the Kremlin’s stated rationale for the invasion of Ukraine. Having found no other way to mask his territorial ambitions, Putin has turned to stoking fears about f*****m.

But whether or not Putin’s gamble will pay off remains to be seen. In a world of instant communication and 24/7 news coverage, videos and images undercutting Putin’s narrative and showing the wanton destruction wrought on the Ukrainian people by the Russian Army are widespread.

Worse for Putin, the false narrative about the Soviet Union in World War II and the lie underpinning Russia’s invasion of Ukraine may now be codependent on one another. Should either come crashing down, the other may soon follow. For a people who have been raised to believe the official government narrative on every aspect of Russian history, facing this reality would be absolutely devastating – and may leave Putin with an even more tenuous grip on power.
Putin’s Two Big Lies br Posted Wednesday, May 11, ... (show quote)


I got this from Zemirah on one of my threads:

As Vladimir Putin had been saying for years (since 2014) as he was ignored, by both the Ukrainian government and the so-called "civilized" nations of the west, he wanted the Ukrainian government to cease attacking and murdering the Russian speaking residents of Donetsk and Lugansk...

"Before the Russian incursion, according to The Citizen News International, printed on Sunday February 20, 2022, since 2014, about 9,000 civilians had been k**led in the Donbass by the Ukrainian military. Such data was presented at the press conference “Scorched memory of Donbass: war crimes of the Ukrainian army and new data on the massacres of the civilian population.”

According to the representative of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the self-proclained Lugansk People's Republic (LPR) Anna Soroka, more than 2,000 civilians, including 35 children, had been k**led during the conflict in the republic, 3,365 people were injured, including 88 minors.

The Commissioner for Human Rights in the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic (DPR), Daria Morozova, said that more than 5,000 people, including 91 minor children, became victims among the population of the DPR. About 8 thousand more people were injured of varying severity during this period.

Determining the exact number of victims of hostilities in the region is still complicated by the large number of missing people.

As Daria Morozova noted, during the active phase of hostilities in 2014, it was not possible to record deaths with documents, and civilians buried the dead on their own, not even knowing their names.

It is noted that at that time the Ukrainian military did not allow the dead to be buried: the cemeteries were mined or shelled.

At the end of July 2021, according to Anna Soroka, the LPR had information of about 17 places of spontaneous burial of civilians, among them seven burials containing more than 50 bodies of civilians. More than 130 places of mass and spontaneous burial have been discovered and unearthed on the territory of the DPR, Daria Morozova noted.

Special working groups were set up in the republics to search for the burial places of victims of the conflict and missing persons.

As the Deputy Foreign Minister of the LPR said, in three and a half months of work, 292 bodies of civilians were raised, and, as followed from the initial examination of forensic specialists, these were indeed civilians.

“What we saw was scary for us. We especially had this feeling. In Sokologorovsk, Pervomaisk district, where ten burials were found 50-70 m deep, where people were simply collected from the streets and buried, simply because it was not possible to bury them normally.We have found new burial places and we can say that strikes were carried out even in those places about which we had no information before,” she said.

DPR Ombudsman Daria Morozova reported that , the remains of nine more civilians who died as a result of the shelling of Ilovaisk in 2014 were raised in the village of Gornoye in Khartsyzsk. According to her, then an ambulance, in which they tried to evacuate a wounded civilian man, came under fire from the armed forces of Ukraine (AFU). The car and everyone in it were burned.

The calculation of the dead, as Dmitry Kalashnikov, head of the forensic medical examination bureau of the Donetsk People's Republic, drew attention to, is further complicated by the fact that in 2014 "the guys fought in jeans."

“Then it was not fixed whether it was military or civilian. We just saw that they were dead. We do not have exact statistics for 2014-2015. More than 60% of the dead are civilians,” he said.

According to Daria Morozova, if all the work goes smoothly, the work on the entire territory can be completed in just two years.

But, if we talk about the global search for the missing, everything will depend on how soon Kiev starts a dialogue with the self-proclaimed republics, because without a full-fledged exchange of information with the Ukrainian side, it will be impossible to establish the fate of all people,” she said.

“Kyiv is building a policy on the bones - this is the height of N**ism, it is no longer clear what is going on in these people’s heads,” said Daria Morozova.

According to Anna Soroka, starting work at the end of July 2021, the authorities expected some results, but the reality exceeded their expectations.

“In Sokologorovka, we expected to pick up 40 bodies, but we picked up 80. There was a lot of new, additional information for us. The number of victims has increased by 100 compared to our expectations. We will not stop until we find everyone, ”she promised.

Separately, Dmitry Kalashnikov drew attention to the injuries of victims who have been admitted to morgues recently. According to him, the so-called military assistance to Ukraine from other countries is of interest."

Remember, this was shortly BEFORE Russia was finally sufficiently provoked into entering Ukraine's borders...

How long will it take our lawless, brain dead Biden regime to deliberately, or at least sufficiently provoke Vladimir
Putin into directly counter attack the U.S. by going nuclear?

Reply
May 13, 2022 14:11:17   #
dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
I got this from Zemirah on one of my threads:

As Vladimir Putin had been saying for years (since 2014) as he was ignored, by both the Ukrainian government and the so-called "civilized" nations of the west, he wanted the Ukrainian government to cease attacking and murdering the Russian speaking residents of Donetsk and Lugansk...

"Before the Russian incursion, according to The Citizen News International, printed on Sunday February 20, 2022, since 2014, about 9,000 civilians had been k**led in the Donbass by the Ukrainian military. Such data was presented at the press conference “Scorched memory of Donbass: war crimes of the Ukrainian army and new data on the massacres of the civilian population.”

According to the representative of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the self-proclained Lugansk People's Republic (LPR) Anna Soroka, more than 2,000 civilians, including 35 children, had been k**led during the conflict in the republic, 3,365 people were injured, including 88 minors.

The Commissioner for Human Rights in the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic (DPR), Daria Morozova, said that more than 5,000 people, including 91 minor children, became victims among the population of the DPR. About 8 thousand more people were injured of varying severity during this period.

Determining the exact number of victims of hostilities in the region is still complicated by the large number of missing people.

As Daria Morozova noted, during the active phase of hostilities in 2014, it was not possible to record deaths with documents, and civilians buried the dead on their own, not even knowing their names.

It is noted that at that time the Ukrainian military did not allow the dead to be buried: the cemeteries were mined or shelled.

At the end of July 2021, according to Anna Soroka, the LPR had information of about 17 places of spontaneous burial of civilians, among them seven burials containing more than 50 bodies of civilians. More than 130 places of mass and spontaneous burial have been discovered and unearthed on the territory of the DPR, Daria Morozova noted.

Special working groups were set up in the republics to search for the burial places of victims of the conflict and missing persons.

As the Deputy Foreign Minister of the LPR said, in three and a half months of work, 292 bodies of civilians were raised, and, as followed from the initial examination of forensic specialists, these were indeed civilians.

“What we saw was scary for us. We especially had this feeling. In Sokologorovsk, Pervomaisk district, where ten burials were found 50-70 m deep, where people were simply collected from the streets and buried, simply because it was not possible to bury them normally.We have found new burial places and we can say that strikes were carried out even in those places about which we had no information before,” she said.

DPR Ombudsman Daria Morozova reported that , the remains of nine more civilians who died as a result of the shelling of Ilovaisk in 2014 were raised in the village of Gornoye in Khartsyzsk. According to her, then an ambulance, in which they tried to evacuate a wounded civilian man, came under fire from the armed forces of Ukraine (AFU). The car and everyone in it were burned.

The calculation of the dead, as Dmitry Kalashnikov, head of the forensic medical examination bureau of the Donetsk People's Republic, drew attention to, is further complicated by the fact that in 2014 "the guys fought in jeans."

“Then it was not fixed whether it was military or civilian. We just saw that they were dead. We do not have exact statistics for 2014-2015. More than 60% of the dead are civilians,” he said.

According to Daria Morozova, if all the work goes smoothly, the work on the entire territory can be completed in just two years.

But, if we talk about the global search for the missing, everything will depend on how soon Kiev starts a dialogue with the self-proclaimed republics, because without a full-fledged exchange of information with the Ukrainian side, it will be impossible to establish the fate of all people,” she said.

“Kyiv is building a policy on the bones - this is the height of N**ism, it is no longer clear what is going on in these people’s heads,” said Daria Morozova.

According to Anna Soroka, starting work at the end of July 2021, the authorities expected some results, but the reality exceeded their expectations.

“In Sokologorovka, we expected to pick up 40 bodies, but we picked up 80. There was a lot of new, additional information for us. The number of victims has increased by 100 compared to our expectations. We will not stop until we find everyone, ”she promised.

Separately, Dmitry Kalashnikov drew attention to the injuries of victims who have been admitted to morgues recently. According to him, the so-called military assistance to Ukraine from other countries is of interest."

Remember, this was shortly BEFORE Russia was finally sufficiently provoked into entering Ukraine's borders...

How long will it take our lawless, brain dead Biden regime to deliberately, or at least sufficiently provoke Vladimir
Putin into directly counter attack the U.S. by going nuclear?
I got this from Zemirah on one of my threads: br ... (show quote)


"How long will it take our lawless, brain dead Biden regime to deliberately, or at least sufficiently provoke Vladimir Putin into directly counter attack the U.S. by going nuclear?"

That is the $64,000 question.

2014 is not 2022 and Zelensky wasn't president then. Obama/Biden gave Putin the green light. The government of Ukraine was extremely corrupt during this period. None of this rises to the level that Putin has a right to invade a sovereign country. Would you be okay with Mexico invading the U.S. because i******s were being mistreated after crossing the border? Are you justifying Hitler's incursion into the Sudetenland? Do you really believe Putin would stop when what he really h**es is Poland? Putin is a Bully and a thug who is not a legitimate leader of the Russian people. He has murdered opponents and robbed the Russian people to enrich himself as possibly the richest man in the world.

Reply
 
 
May 13, 2022 14:49:30   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
dtucker300 wrote:
"How long will it take our lawless, brain dead Biden regime to deliberately, or at least sufficiently provoke Vladimir Putin into directly counter attack the U.S. by going nuclear?"

That is the $64,000 question.

2014 is not 2022 and Zelensky wasn't president then. Obama/Biden gave Putin the green light. The government of Ukraine was extremely corrupt during this period. None of this rises to the level that Putin has a right to invade a sovereign country. Would you be okay with Mexico invading the U.S. because i******s were being mistreated after crossing the border? Are you justifying Hitler's incursion into the Sudetenland? Do you really believe Putin would stop when what he really h**es is Poland? Putin is a Bully and a thug who is not a legitimate leader of the Russian people. He has murdered opponents and robbed the Russian people to enrich himself as possibly the richest man in the world.
i "How long will it take our lawless, brain ... (show quote)


14,000 Russian k**led in the donbas since 2014 along with NATO encroachment is not sufficient? What the heck is, then???

Reply
May 13, 2022 15:18:16   #
dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
14,000 Russian k**led in the donbas since 2014 along with NATO encroachment is not sufficient? What the heck is, then???


The world is pretty effed up everywhere. Russia is a member of the UN security council. The UN is worthless as is the ICC. How many Russians have been k**led or jailed by Putin because they don't agree with him? One to two million Uyghurs held in China as s***e labor, jailed, executed, or used for organ donors seems pretty sufficient, wouldn't you say?

Reply
May 13, 2022 15:43:22   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
dtucker300 wrote:
The world is pretty effed up everywhere. Russia is a member of the UN security council. The UN is worthless as is the ICC. How many Russians have been k**led or jailed by Putin because they don't agree with him? One to two million Uyghurs held in China as s***e labor, jailed, executed, or used for organ donors seems pretty sufficient, wouldn't you say?


We don't have any idea how many Russians have been k**led or jailed by Putin for disagreeing with him.

I think the millions of Uyghurs you claim have had atrocities occur to them is irrelevant to the topic of Russia invading Ukraine.

Reply
May 13, 2022 15:57:57   #
dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
We don't have any idea how many Russians have been k**led or jailed by Putin for disagreeing with him.

I think the millions of Uyghurs you claim have had atrocities occur to them is irrelevant to the topic of Russia invading Ukraine.


Yes. it is irrelevant to Ukraine but not to national sovereignty. Ukraine is irrelevant to Russia, yet Putin is there.

Reply
 
 
May 13, 2022 16:03:47   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
dtucker300 wrote:
Yes. it is irrelevant to Ukraine but not to national sovereignty. Ukraine is irrelevant to Russia, yet Putin is there.


Saying Ukraine is irrelevant to Russia is evidence of a lack of knowledge of the history of the region. That being said, rescuing Russians in Ukraine from being bomb and shelled out of existence over rides sovereignty. Sorry dude, but for much less reason that that, the US has violated the sovereignty of many countries.

Reply
May 13, 2022 16:57:16   #
dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
Saying Ukraine is irrelevant to Russia is evidence of a lack of knowledge of the history of the region. That being said, rescuing Russians in Ukraine from being bomb and shelled out of existence over rides sovereignty. Sorry dude, but for much less reason that that, the US has violated the sovereignty of many countries.


But you just said this China is irrelevant to Ukraine. So is the U.S. Sorry, we've been over this dozens of times and you have not convinced me. You're trying to use one issue when the matter is much more complicated than Ukraine mistreating Russians in its country. You know from all our previous conversations that I do not have a lack of understanding regarding the history of this region. You fail to acknowledge that Putin has more up his sleeve than protecting ethnic Russians. All of this is just a stepping stone. Putin is failing miserably because he is a failure himself. His Military is failing miserably. He has failed his citizens of Russia. He does not come into this with clean hands. Russia is on the Security Council of the UN. Where is the UN in this? Where is the ICC? You want to debate the issue then don't bring extraneous issues into the debate.

What is the primary issue as you see it? Let's settle that before we start deflecting and projecting with all sorts of irrelevancies.

Reply
May 13, 2022 19:53:34   #
LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago
 
dtucker300 wrote:
It's a question of which came first, the chicken or the egg. NATO was formed to counter the Soviet Warsaw Pact. It expanded because of Putin's stance toward the west. He is as much responsible because of his own actions. NATO has never been a threat to Russia unless Russia has acted threateningly toward the west.


DTucker, we've agreed on a lot of things, but we are a world apart on Ukraine, etc. ***chicken or the egg
So, Warsaw came first. Point? Warsaw disbanded first. Then NATO expanded. Once Warsaw disbanded there was no need for NATO because its existence was based on Warsaw. And in talks between Russia and the west, the west agreed to not expand NATO.

First came a nest of Eggs (WP). Then the Chicken(NATO). Then the nest of eggs broke up and the chicken promised the largest egg that they would leave those eggs alone. Then the chicken started eating the eggs and growing larger. Finally the largest egg said no more. So the Chicken breaks another egg (Ukraine) but doesn't eat it, yet. Instead it starts tearing itself apart and separating the white from the yolk and chopping up the Yolk. The largest egg tries to protect the yolk, but the Chicken is bringing in all sorts of stuff to persecute that yolk further (NATO aid). And the big egg finally says, no more. And somehow it is all the large eggs fault.
Your analogy.

What is this horrible Russian stand towards the west? I see the west with the horrible stand. Once Russia discussed entering the European Union and once it talked about entering NATO. Russia was turned down. Facts. They worked with us in creating the International Space Station and even ferried our crews and supplies for over five years. Is that a horrible country or one that wants to work together.

As for NATO being a threat. It has been a threat ever since agreements were broken and NATO started expanding. It really came to a head when NATO and America helped stage an illegal c**p in Kiev and supported Ukrainian army's and Facist M*****a's attacks on the breakaway provinces that wanted no part of that illegal government in Kiev.

DT, I really think that you need a more through analysis of the situation. NWTK posted a long list of atrocities in the Southeast of Ukraine. This is all part of Putin believing he needed to take action. I'm an American and I'd like to think that we are on the right side of everything. But I'm not afraid to point out when we are wrong. We are wrong on this one and addle brained biden is really making it worse.

Cheers
Logically Right

Reply
May 13, 2022 20:01:55   #
LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago
 
Snoopy wrote:
Russia, in a treaty, accepted nuclear weapons from the Ukraine in exchange for peaceful co-existence. Russia violated this agreement. So much for trusting Russia on ANY AGREEMENT THEY SIGN!

Russia had no right to invade the Ukraine


Is that so? Or did Ukraine violate that agreement with a new government the result of an c**p sponsored by outside interests. Russia made no agreement with them. And that new government took over control without the consent of the south east provinces, that were mostly ethnic Russians. Does Russia have any right to protect ethnic people from mass slaughter by their new, un approved government that they want no part of.

Seems to me that America sticks its nose into other's affairs all the time. With less of a stake in the situation. But now Russia is somehow evil for protecting ethnic Russians. Maybe if America had a ethnic race of their own to protect, they might see it differently. Oh, wait, they do. Indians. And we really screwed that up.

Logically Right

Reply
Page 1 of 2 next>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Main
OnePoliticalPlaza.com - Forum
Copyright 2012-2024 IDF International Technologies, Inc.