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Apr 26, 2022 18:45:07   #
whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Do you believe that Chechnya has the right to determine its own path, even if that leads to forming its own nation???


Yeppers ... why would they not? And if you're going to the same situation here, we fought a Civil War over that. Our Constitution, to which they agreed, and which they cannot withdraw from. Chechnya didn't have that provision, that I know of ... they were just an occupied territory. Of course, if we extend that, Puerto Rico would have a right to declare itself an independent nation. It's a kindof gray area no matter how you slice it. Both sides have some logic behind them ....
In our case (the US), it was decided by the Supreme Court in 1869 (Texas v. White, 74 U.S. (7 Wall.) 700 (1869),) ... "the court ruled that, legally speaking, Texas had remained a United States state ever since it first joined the Union, despite its joining the Confederate States of America and its being under military rule at the time of the decision in the case." ...

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Apr 26, 2022 18:50:24   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
whitnebrat wrote:
Yeppers ... why would they not? And if you're going to the same situation here, we fought a Civil War over that. Our Constitution, to which they agreed, and which they cannot withdraw from. Chechnya didn't have that provision, that I know of ... they were just an occupied territory. Of course, if we extend that, Puerto Rico would have a right to declare itself an independent nation. It's a kindof gray area no matter how you slice it. Both sides have some logic behind them ....
In our case (the US), it was decided by the Supreme Court in 1869 (Texas v. White, 74 U.S. (7 Wall.) 700 (1869),) ... "the court ruled that, legally speaking, Texas had remained a United States state ever since it first joined the Union, despite its joining the Confederate States of America and its being under military rule at the time of the decision in the case." ...
Yeppers ... why would they not? And if you're goin... (show quote)


Interesting...

So Chechnya has the right to secede from Russia, but Crimea, Donbas, T***snistria, and various other regions absolutely don't enjoy this same freedom....

How does that work????

Chechnya has been a part of Russia much, much, much longer than Crimea has been a part of the Ukraine... Or than the Donbas has been a part of the Ukraine... Or even than T***snistria has been a part of Moldovia...

What's the difference????

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Apr 26, 2022 18:52:56   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
whitnebrat wrote:
Yeppers ... why would they not? And if you're going to the same situation here, we fought a Civil War over that. Our Constitution, to which they agreed, and which they cannot withdraw from. Chechnya didn't have that provision, that I know of ... they were just an occupied territory. Of course, if we extend that, Puerto Rico would have a right to declare itself an independent nation. It's a kindof gray area no matter how you slice it. Both sides have some logic behind them ....
In our case (the US), it was decided by the Supreme Court in 1869 (Texas v. White, 74 U.S. (7 Wall.) 700 (1869),) ... "the court ruled that, legally speaking, Texas had remained a United States state ever since it first joined the Union, despite its joining the Confederate States of America and its being under military rule at the time of the decision in the case." ...
Yeppers ... why would they not? And if you're goin... (show quote)


Also... Thanks for the history... I was unaware that Texas joined the secessionist states...

Is there no way for a state (or region) to withdraw from the US???

That doesn't seem very democratic

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Apr 26, 2022 21:14:01   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Also... Thanks for the history... I was unaware that Texas joined the secessionist states...

Is there no way for a state (or region) to withdraw from the US???

That doesn't seem very democratic


According to some, Texas joined the Confederacy to keep the s***es s***es. I'll bet not. The Texas leader, Sam Houston, refused to swear loyalty to the confederation, that much I do know. They seceded and considered becoming a country again. Who knows. There was little cohesion without anything but carrier pigeons and riders to carry communications.

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Apr 26, 2022 22:58:20   #
whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Interesting...

So Chechnya has the right to secede from Russia, but Crimea, Donbas, T***snistria, and various other regions absolutely don't enjoy this same freedom....
How does that work????
Chechnya has been a part of Russia much, much, much longer than Crimea has been a part of the Ukraine... Or than the Donbas has been a part of the Ukraine... Or even than T***snistria has been a part of Moldovia...
What's the difference????

I don't think I said that ... I think as long as there was no binding contract (read overriding constitution, etc.), a region/country/area has a right to establish their own country. If there is a binding contract, such as our US Constitution, then they don't have a right to do so. At least, that's my take on it ...
From Wikipedia:
"In order to justify secession as a constitutional remedy, it must be on the principle that the Federal Government is a mere voluntary association of States, to be dissolved at pleasure by any one of the contracting parties."
Also from Wikipedia:
"The Constitution does not directly mention secession. The legality of secession was hotly debated in the 19th century. ... The Supreme Court has consistently interpreted the Constitution to be an "indestructible" union. The Articles of Confederation explicitly state the Union is "perpetual"; the U.S. Constitution declares itself an even "more perfect union" than the Articles of Confederation. Other scholars, while not necessarily disagreeing that the secession was illegal, point out that sovereignty is often de facto an "extralegal" question."

Draw your own conclusions ...

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Apr 27, 2022 01:14:44   #
LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago
 
whitnebrat wrote:
If it hadn't been for Stalin 'acquiring' those satellite states by occupation after WWII, the rest of Europe wouldn't have felt the need to coalesce into in a defense force. And with the demise of the Soviet Union, those satellite states decided that Soviet rule was something they never wanted again and joined NATO to prevent that.
<sigh> I h**e to tell you this, but Putin has said himself any number of times that he's on a mission to recreate the Soviet Empire. And NATO, to my knowledge, hasn't been aggressive, but voluntarily defensive.
Read and learn.
If it hadn't been for Stalin 'acquiring' those sat... (show quote)


I have read and learned. The C*******t Russia and Stalin is long gone and we aren't against opposing that. But the expansion of HATO after agreeing not to, is the start of what is happening now. The Warsaw pact broke up and it was internal leadership that caused a lot of the early problems. Not Russia. And it was HATO that keeps creeping towards Russia without, Russia making any moves towards Europe or HATO since the breakup. They are now fighting back against this continuous move by HATO and American containment, against a threat that wasn't, that made it into a threat to breakout that you are seeing today. You can't keep poking the bear with a stick without it eventually swiping back with a mighty paw and beware of that bite. HATO and Europe never gave Russia a chance to be equal partners in peace and now innocents are dying. And we are supplying them weapons so they can last longer and the slaughter continues. Russia's demands were not only DAMN reasonable but the smartest thing to do. Ukraine neutrality, and stop expanding HATO, and freedom of choice for the eastern provinces of Ukraine, that wanted no part of the Ukraine reconstituted by an American C**p, and the leaders America put in there. There is the final cause that called on Russia to set a red line. What would you want? Ukraine in HATO and missiles on the border with Russia and the equivalent of the DMZ of Korea now extended to Europe. That would be utterly ignorant.

Logically Right

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Apr 27, 2022 01:22:46   #
LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago
 
woodguru wrote:
You are so full of crap, take it further, Russia taking Georgia and the Crimea...the breakaway zones?

Russia instigated NATO needing to beef up their presence...there is nothing fair about a larger country taking what it wants from another.


Russia didn't want to take over Georgia. More HATO expansion. Actually the latest I heard is one of the two provinces Russia gave independence to in Georgia wants to merge with Russia. Their citizens. But freedom of choice doesn't matter to you. And Crimea v**ed to join Russia and it was separatists in the Donbas region that wanted out, only after an illegal American sponsored c**p in Ukraine.

Logically Right

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Apr 27, 2022 01:23:44   #
LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago
 
woodguru wrote:
They have no ability to read or learn, only what they want to hear, this is what cognitive dysfunction is...the part of the brain that processes information simply does not work.


***They have no ability to read or learn, only what they want to hear, this is what cognitive dysfunction is...the part of the brain that processes information simply does not work.
<<<You have no ability to read or learn, only what youy want to hear, this is what cognitive dysfunction is...the part of the brain that processes information simply does not work.

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Apr 27, 2022 01:37:48   #
LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago
 
whitnebrat wrote:
An additional response to Logically Right:

"What's past is prologue." These words spoken by Shakespeare's Antonio in The Tempest, are prescient in relation to Russia and Europe.
Europe and the Mediterranean have repeatedly been invaded and overrun since the time of the Vandals (who sacked Rome), Attila the Hun, (who overran much of Europe), Ghengis Khan (and the Mongol Hordes), the era of the Tsarists, the Soviet Era (that acquired the numerous satellite states as buffers) and now to the expansion of Russian influence following the fall of the Soviet Era. While they haven't been called "Russians" all the time, they derive from the same Northern Asian stock as has populated that area since time immemorial. They were never a truly agrarian society, but relied on raiding and foreign invasion to obtain those things that allowed them to exist on the plains of Siberia and the Steppes of Central Asia.
Russia, and its predecessor societies, have always had expansionist notions, for wh**ever reasons ... it may just be in their DNA. But modern Europe, after seeing what the Russians did after the Second World War, felt that it was in their best interests to form and maintain NATO in order to prevent further expansion of the Soviet Union. With the actions of Russia recently (Georgia, Chechnya, Crimea, and now Ukraine) they obviously feel that the Russians are again in an expansionist mood. NATO is probably going to get a number of other previous non-aligned states (Finland, Sweden, Moldova, etc.) that are showing increased interest in joining the alliance because of those fears.
It isn't NATO that's the aggressor, it's the Russians under Putin. 'Nuf said.
An additional response to Logically Right: br br ... (show quote)


That whole area of western Russia, Ukraine. Belarus has changed hands so many time with the aggressors coming from all sides that it is hard to say who is the bad guy. But the altest has all been Europe invading Russia. There is no evidence of Putin or Russia trying to recreate the Soviet Union. All unproven innuendo from the west. The turmoil in Europe was from the breaking up of the Warsaw Pact nations and not any aggressive moves by Russia. In fact it was more American bombs. There was no need for any expansion of NATO after the Warsaw Pact broke up and even an agreement to not do so. Finland worked fine without NATO and so did Sweden. They are at peace with Russia. As I've said often here, there only need to join NATO is as a defense from Russia for joining NATO. Does that make sense on any level? Really? Think about it.

Logically Right

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Apr 27, 2022 01:42:18   #
LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Interesting...

So Chechnya has the right to secede from Russia, but Crimea, Donbas, T***snistria, and various other regions absolutely don't enjoy this same freedom....

How does that work????

Chechnya has been a part of Russia much, much, much longer than Crimea has been a part of the Ukraine... Or than the Donbas has been a part of the Ukraine... Or even than T***snistria has been a part of Moldovia...

What's the difference????


Interesting points CD. I think the points are 'our side or your side'.

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Apr 27, 2022 02:54:41   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
whitnebrat wrote:
I don't think I said that ... I think as long as there was no binding contract (read overriding constitution, etc.), a region/country/area has a right to establish their own country. If there is a binding contract, such as our US Constitution, then they don't have a right to do so. At least, that's my take on it ...
From Wikipedia:
"In order to justify secession as a constitutional remedy, it must be on the principle that the Federal Government is a mere voluntary association of States, to be dissolved at pleasure by any one of the contracting parties."
Also from Wikipedia:
"The Constitution does not directly mention secession. The legality of secession was hotly debated in the 19th century. ... The Supreme Court has consistently interpreted the Constitution to be an "indestructible" union. The Articles of Confederation explicitly state the Union is "perpetual"; the U.S. Constitution declares itself an even "more perfect union" than the Articles of Confederation. Other scholars, while not necessarily disagreeing that the secession was illegal, point out that sovereignty is often de facto an "extralegal" question."

Draw your own conclusions ...
I don't think I said that ... I think as long as t... (show quote)


I see... By that logic Chechnya had no right to rebel...

Indeed, the thirteen colonies had no right to rebel...

Truly, I can't think of single secession that had any sort of legal right to secede...

Would you care to recall your Chechnya example???

Reply
Apr 27, 2022 09:13:11   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
LogicallyRight wrote:
I have read and learned. The C*******t Russia and Stalin is long gone and we aren't against opposing that. But the expansion of HATO after agreeing not to, is the start of what is happening now. The Warsaw pact broke up and it was internal leadership that caused a lot of the early problems. Not Russia. And it was HATO that keeps creeping towards Russia without, Russia making any moves towards Europe or HATO since the breakup. They are now fighting back against this continuous move by HATO and American containment, against a threat that wasn't, that made it into a threat to breakout that you are seeing today. You can't keep poking the bear with a stick without it eventually swiping back with a mighty paw and beware of that bite. HATO and Europe never gave Russia a chance to be equal partners in peace and now innocents are dying. And we are supplying them weapons so they can last longer and the slaughter continues. Russia's demands were not only DAMN reasonable but the smartest thing to do. Ukraine neutrality, and stop expanding HATO, and freedom of choice for the eastern provinces of Ukraine, that wanted no part of the Ukraine reconstituted by an American C**p, and the leaders America put in there. There is the final cause that called on Russia to set a red line. What would you want? Ukraine in HATO and missiles on the border with Russia and the equivalent of the DMZ of Korea now extended to Europe. That would be utterly ignorant.

Logically Right
I have read and learned. The C*******t Russia and ... (show quote)


Great summary and comment. It would seem the west thinks Putin is bluffing or lying, no matter what he says or threatens to do, even in the face of those threats being carried out to the letter. Putin ain't bluffing, nor was he ever. He took his time, built up for his move, and moved. Since he didn't move instantly, the west bloviated that he was bluffing. Now they bloviate again with rhetoric of fighting for freedom. Tell that to the ones in the donbas that Ukraine has been shelling for the past 8 years. It is as if the west is inviting a nuclear conflict.

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Apr 27, 2022 17:47:45   #
whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon
 
LogicallyRight wrote:
I have read and learned. The C*******t Russia and Stalin is long gone and we aren't against opposing that. But the expansion of HATO after agreeing not to, is the start of what is happening now. The Warsaw pact broke up and it was internal leadership that caused a lot of the early problems. Not Russia. And it was HATO that keeps creeping towards Russia without, Russia making any moves towards Europe or HATO since the breakup. They are now fighting back against this continuous move by HATO and American containment, against a threat that wasn't, that made it into a threat to breakout that you are seeing today. You can't keep poking the bear with a stick without it eventually swiping back with a mighty paw and beware of that bite. HATO and Europe never gave Russia a chance to be equal partners in peace and now innocents are dying. And we are supplying them weapons so they can last longer and the slaughter continues. Russia's demands were not only DAMN reasonable but the smartest thing to do. Ukraine neutrality, and stop expanding HATO, and freedom of choice for the eastern provinces of Ukraine, that wanted no part of the Ukraine reconstituted by an American C**p, and the leaders America put in there. There is the final cause that called on Russia to set a red line. What would you want? Ukraine in HATO and missiles on the border with Russia and the equivalent of the DMZ of Korea now extended to Europe. That would be utterly ignorant.

Logically Right
I have read and learned. The C*******t Russia and ... (show quote)


We agree to disagree in almost all respects.

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Apr 28, 2022 15:29:11   #
whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon
 
If I didn't know better, I'd think that Logically Right was a Russian troll. But maybe I don't know better.

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Apr 28, 2022 18:26:02   #
LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago
 
whitnebrat wrote:
If I didn't know better, I'd think that Logically Right was a Russian troll. But maybe I don't know better.


You don't.

So we will agree to disagree and continue to educate ourselves as best we can.

I am not anti-American and pro Russian. I am for t***h and to logically pull together all of the information we can and give freedom to as many as possible without war. And let those that want out, out. Like the Donbass areas. Their conflict started after an illegal c**p and as far as I can find so far, obama's team led it. I've watched government all my life, mainly from a Chicago Perspective, 'again obama' and excuse me if I don't trust government. We are denied freedom all over America in little blocks here and there and then even bigger blocks. And always lies supporting political parties, etc. That includes Russia and Ukraine and NATO.

I still think this whole war cold have been prevented if not for politicians and any attempt to respect both sides. Putin's demands were reasonable. In the Donbas area, let the people decide. Putin didn't create that conflict, the c**p did. Neutrality for Ukraine so that NATO isn't directly butting heads with Russia when there is no need or urgency. Restrain NATO expansion. It isn't necessary. Russia isn't threatening the west. It is more interested in free trade. What part of that don't you like and why?

Still always trying to be
Logically Right

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