whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon

I have not spoken out much about Ukraine recently, for a variety of reasons, but mainly because so many others have spoken out so eloquently, such as Heather Cox Richardson. But, for wh**ever reasons, I am now compelled to state what I feel are some compelling but not very obvious factors that have not recieved much attention yet, but which underlay the entire Russian expansionist motivation.
First, Ukraine is not a war of territory … it is in part a religious war. Make no mistake, it is the Crusades of the twenty-first century. While not stated as such, it has a large religious component. That history is recent (and as ancient) as justifies the cause.

“Ukraine is where, more than a thousand years ago, a warrior prince took up Christianity to marry a daughter of the patriarch of Constantinople, and then compelled thousands of others to convert as he had. The conversion of St. Vladimir—also known as St. Volodymyr—is claimed as the foundational act of Christianity in the region, to which both Russian Orthodoxy and Orthodoxy in Ukraine trace their roots, and Ukraine has been religiously controverted territory ever since.” [https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-long-holy-war-behind-putins-political-war-in-ukraine]

In 2018, the Ukrainian Russian Orthodox Church broke away from the Moscow patriarch**e, and formed their own independent domain … still basically Orthodox, but their own separate patriarch**e. Needless to say, this infuriated the Moscow patriarch, since as much as 50% of the entire Ukrainian population identified with the new sect … not to mention that many of the religious shrines of that Orthodoxy reside in Ukraine.
The Moscow patriarch has been a Putin (who is Russian Orthodox) whisperer since that time, adding a religious fervor to the avowed aim of Putin to restore the USSR to its former extent and glory. Putin has repeatedly stated that the worst thing to happen in centuries to Russia was the breakup of the USSR, and his mission (read fervent objective) is to do just that … restore the empire.
That empire has evolved into many independent and democratic states, most of which now belong to NATO. But the current focus on Ukraine is just the beginning. There is more low-h*****g fruit (not that Ukraine is such).

While we are witnessing the brutal devastation of the portions of Ukraine … flattening entire cities and populating mass graves, it is nothing new. That tactic has been used recently in Georgia and Chechnya with brutal effectiveness to put down any idea of independence. It is the Russian mindset. It was used in Syria in defense of Bashir al Assad. It is used in Ukraine for the same reason. It works.
But if Ukraine falls, (it may very well do so because of the overwhelming might of the Russian army) it will not be the end of the expansion, merely the opening salvo. Putin is on a crusade to re-establish the Russian empire.
Moldova is such a low-h*****g fruit. If Russia establishes the land bridge between Eastern Ukraine and Crimea, it opens the door to proceed westward into Moldova with little opposition.
At that point, it runs up against the entire world of NATO. If the world (not just NATO) doesn’t stop the Ukrainian aggression by Russia, Putin will figure that NATO is just a paper tiger (in spite of the massive military aid to Ukraine) and finally confront NATO itself. My guess is that the initial contact will be with Estonia, to establish a land bridge with its enclave in Kaliningrad. This Russian territory is isolated from Belarus by both Poland and Estonia, and is home to the Russian Baltic Naval Fleet. It has been an aim of Russia for decades to be able to supply and connect with Kaliningrad by land. To do so will test whether NATO has the guts and willpower to confront a nuclear-armed Russia. If this next confrontation with NATO is allowed to stand (assuming that Ukraine falls), then all bets are off as to further expansions.

The parallels to this situation with Russia have stark and definite parallels to the aggression of Hitler to acquire the Czech region of Sudetenland and Austria in 1938, based on the large number of German-speaking populations in those regions. This is the same reasoning that Putin has used to justify his invasion of Ukraine.
The “direct hands-off” policy of Europe and NATO in Ukraine has an uncanny similarity to the attempts of appeasement that culminated with the “agreement” between British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain and Hitler, allowing the N**i takeover of Austria and the Sudetenland, that Chamberlain touted as “Peace in our time.” Nine months later, Hitler began his “blitzkrieg” invasion of Poland … starting WWII.
I wonder at what point the Europeans and NATO will find the will and guts to actually confront the Russians in Ukraine? What trigger will cause us (and them) to take on a nuclear-armed Russia? What level of atrocities and human-rights violations will it take for Europe and NATO to take action?
We have our own set of Russian apologists on national media and in politics that justify the Russian invasion, just as the N**is had their apologists prior to WWII here … notably with Charles Lindbergh and some prominent politicians, who argued that isolationism was the only way for this country to survive. Isolationism is once again rearing its ugly head here. It took Pearl Harbor two years after the invasion of Poland by Hitler before we entered the war with troops and direct involvement. What will be our “Pearl Harbor” in this situation?

I am reminded of a quote from shortly after the N**i Holocaust was defeated …

“First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.”
Martin Niemöller (circa 1945)

At what point will the world confront this modern version of N**i-ism, and put an end to it?
As Shakespeare’s Hamlet so aptly put it …

“To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?”
Hamlet, Act III, Scene I

LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago

Personally, Whitnebrat, I believe you watch to much ABCNNBCBS and don't do enough research on what led up to this war.

Most of us that are being accused of being on Russia's side, do not believe that Russia should have invaded Ukraine, but they were almost pushed into it by America and NATO and the press. We believe that NATO has been trying to strangle Russia from the west since the breakup of the Warsaw Pact and NATO's failure to live up to its agreement to not expand. Minsk agreements failed due to the west. Russia is doing what it feels it has to do to the keep a former enemy, NATO, from setting up shop on its border, and turning that border into the equivalent of the Korean DMZ. That would be catastrophic. Russia and Putin have no interest in recreating a new Soviet Empire. They just don't want or need a new European Empire pushed to their front door. History show that it was European invasions of Russia and not Russian invasions of Europe that fueled all the conflicts in the last several centuries in the area. Russia wants the recognition of the fact that they are a great world power and the free trade that should go along with that. Putin's demands over Ukraine are not only fair, but good for all concerned.

Logically Right

manning5 Loc: Richmond, VA

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Ok, they are a great power, great enough to flatten the Ukraine city by city.
Moldavia appears to be next.
Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania to follow.
We are headed towards a massive confrontation with Russia if they attack a NATO nation.
This idea that they want a buffer of nations is pure Russian, and totally unnecessary.

LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago

The only reason to join HATO is to protect yourself from Russia. The only reason you need protection from Russia is because you joined HATO. What is the common element. HATO, the aggressive organization that keeps trying to encircle Russia's western border. Don't give me that bull schitte that they are a defensive force. If that were so, there was zero need for them continually expanding into nations all over Europe. And don't give me any of that bull schitte that Putin wants to recreate the Soviet Empire. I've seen a lot of your posts. You aren't that stupid. As for Ukraine, This really started to boil because of a United States sponsored c**p in 2014. Read and learn.

Logically Right

whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon

Yep ... you got that one right.


That one you got backwards. Inverse logic.



If it hadn't been for Stalin 'acquiring' those satellite states by occupation after WWII, the rest of Europe wouldn't have felt the need to coalesce into in a defense force. And with the demise of the Soviet Union, those satellite states decided that Soviet rule was something they never wanted again and joined NATO to prevent that.
<sigh> I h**e to tell you this, but Putin has said himself any number of times that he's on a mission to recreate the Soviet Empire. And NATO, to my knowledge, hasn't been aggressive, but voluntarily defensive.
Read and learn.

woodguru

You are so full of crap, take it further, Russia taking Georgia and the Crimea...the breakaway zones?

Russia instigated NATO needing to beef up their presence...there is nothing fair about a larger country taking what it wants from another.

woodguru

They have no ability to read or learn, only what they want to hear, this is what cognitive dysfunction is...the part of the brain that processes information simply does not work.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

I enjoyed the first part... Few people look to the religious context of the war...

The second part was less inspiring...

Could you provide proof of this statement??? " Putin has repeatedly stated that the worst thing to happen in centuries to Russia was the breakup of the USSR, and his mission (read fervent objective) is to do just that … restore the empire."

I can only find innuendo from western sources... I can't find a single quote by Putin stating he wants to restore the Russian empire....

Weird...Must be the Great Fire Wall....

Hope you've been well... I've missed your posts

whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon

Here's just a few of the sources ... recently he said he isn't wanting to do that ... take that with a grain of salt ...
https://cepa.org/putin-is-determined-to-rebuild-the-russian-empire/
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-ukraine-un-ambassador-kyslytsya-says-putin-wants-to-restore-empire/
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/vlad-the-invader-putin-is-trying-to-recreate-the-tsarist-russian-empire

Good to hear from you, Kyle ... I had to take a break from the noise and disinformation here on OPP ... my sanity demanded it!!!
Hope all is well with you ...

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

I'm well... Currently in semi lockdown... Online classes... But restaurants and shopping centres are open again .. And my daughter is back in preschool...

Apologies... I read the three sources you provided and didn't find any quotes from Putin about restoring the USSR or a new Russian empire.... Just innuendo from western sources... The one from the Ukrainian ambassador was the most obviously biased... I don't mean to hound you, but in your OP you did say that Putin has repeatedly outlined that as his goal....

I have been a bit of a fan of Putin for years... And I can't recall him ever making such a claim.. He has been talking about the encroachment of NATO for a long time... And the failure of the Ukraine to uphold the Minsk accords....

whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon

Point taken, but with this many sources saying that, there must be a shred of t***h in there somewhere. As to Putin, we agree to amicably disagree ... with civility as always.
Sorry to hear about your lockdown ... I'm sure it must be stressful. But hopefully, better days are ahead ...
Things are tranquil here on the creek ... it rains and then it dries out, then rains again ... snow in April after a dry winter. Go figure...
Take care, Kyle ... your opinions are always valuable.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Glad your in good spirits..
I'm philosophical about the lockdowns...
Plenty of people in worse positions than myself...

Hope to see more of your threads on the OPP... I feel the same way about your opinions

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

I have been studying him a bit over the past few years and I haven't seen any comments indicating any wish to rebuild the USSR. In fact, it is more about defense and increased trade with the west and the rest of the world. Oh, but the has and is trying to get away from the US dollar. That right there is a big deal.

whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon

An additional response to Logically Right:

"What's past is prologue." These words spoken by Shakespeare's Antonio in The Tempest, are prescient in relation to Russia and Europe.
Europe and the Mediterranean have repeatedly been invaded and overrun since the time of the Vandals (who sacked Rome), Attila the Hun, (who overran much of Europe), Ghengis Khan (and the Mongol Hordes), the era of the Tsarists, the Soviet Era (that acquired the numerous satellite states as buffers) and now to the expansion of Russian influence following the fall of the Soviet Era. While they haven't been called "Russians" all the time, they derive from the same Northern Asian stock as has populated that area since time immemorial. They were never a truly agrarian society, but relied on raiding and foreign invasion to obtain those things that allowed them to exist on the plains of Siberia and the Steppes of Central Asia.
Russia, and its predecessor societies, have always had expansionist notions, for wh**ever reasons ... it may just be in their DNA. But modern Europe, after seeing what the Russians did after the Second World War, felt that it was in their best interests to form and maintain NATO in order to prevent further expansion of the Soviet Union. With the actions of Russia recently (Georgia, Chechnya, Crimea, and now Ukraine) they obviously feel that the Russians are again in an expansionist mood. NATO is probably going to get a number of other previous non-aligned states (Finland, Sweden, Moldova, etc.) that are showing increased interest in joining the alliance because of those fears.
It isn't NATO that's the aggressor, it's the Russians under Putin. 'Nuf said.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Do you believe that Chechnya has the right to determine its own path, even if that leads to forming its own nation???