rumitoid

Hah, yes, very good.

rumitoid

Excellent reply, thank you very much for the time and energy you gave to the topic. What I have presented in my thread may not be well-written, and it is just how I see things now; I am not the arbiter of truth. Humanness forbids all of us that egoistic luxury.

I agree with you that it is foolish using works to gain heaven and just plain wrong. We need Spirit and Grace, instilled by Christ, to guide and inspire our path of righteousness. I have believed that all my life. All that I was trying to is that we must accept it; to say otherwise, to me, means we had no part in our Salvation. It must take our hearts and mind, our will, for it to work. How did we get and practice such faith without being complicit in our Salvation? To say less is makes us mere puppets, manipulated by God or Satan. I hope I made my point more lucid.

rumitoid

Another excellent reply, and I agree with all you said, but it seems that I did not make myself clear by how you responded. Christ is the Redeemer! Yet his necessary assistance in our life only works if we accept and surrender to his will. We take a part in that Salvation, we have to, so it is not by Grace alone. How one actually comes to accept and surrender to his will is a mystery. There some verses that seem to suggest, mostly by Calvinist, that we are simply chosen without a choice. If so, how is that faith?

rumitoid

So beautiful. You really need to write what will be a brilliant book to help the followers of Christ. We just happen to see what I said a little differently, which is fine.

rumitoid

Brilliant again. Thank you.

rumitoid

Thank you, very well put and great insight. What I am saying in this thread defends 'salvation through faith in Jesus Christ’s birth, death on the cross, resurrection, or as we call the Gospel of Jesus Christ!' We have no way without him. What I have posted does not betray that truth. God needs us as much as we need him to save the world. To me, Jesus came to deliver that message. We are to be a clear choice for the people between the worldly and the spiritual--but we have the choice to be an instrument of God! How? Only by love of neighbor and enemy, which we cannot do with our unaided will...but that still requires our choice to act.

rumitoid

Of course I don't, Rose, who has only attack on me and no desire to educate or encourage by your great knowledge and deep faith. Hah, get another hobby, like curator of the Spanish Inquisition Museum. Or be bold for Christ; I think that you can.

Rose42

No rumitoid. But I never expect honesty from you. This is your pattern - make a string of hatemongering posts then come here and post thoughts on your version of Christianity. You even’t claimed your hatemongering was the principle of Christ. How does near constant stream of bile jibe with what you write? It doesn’t. You speak with a forked tongue

And no, God doesn’t need us as much as we need him.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

I'll be succinct...you place too much emphasis on self. You must die to self.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Canuckus, because the religiously observant Jews of today do not identify with God's concept of Salvation does not change the fact that the Jews of the Bible era recognized it. King David certainly did.

Your simplistic belief that you can speak for all Jews is completely untrue and is a staggering display of both ignorance and arrogance.

During the '80s and '90s, I privately regularly attended the Saturday services and worship of Yeshua/Jesus in a Messianic Jewish congregation, as well as publicly working as an accountant for a chapter of the B'nai B'rith Hillel Foundation's Student Service organization serving 2,000 Jewish students from all over the United States and a myriad of other countries.

They rotated their weekly Friday and Saturday Shabbot Services between 1) Conservative, 2) Orthodox, 3) Reform, and 4) Reconstructionists, then started over.

The Ultra Orthodox Chabad had their own building known as Chabad House across campus, where they held their own services.

You can no more speak to one Jewish person about their faith or lack of faith, per se, and encompass all Jewish persons in quoting that one viewpoint even less than you can encompass the entire Biblical span of the Christian faith (even from the human perspective) in any one individual's subjective beliefs and life experiences in dealing with the Almighty.

Within the spectrum of modern Jewish religious tradition (a tradition active for four historical millennia), the theology of Kabbalah - an essentially pantheistic occultic system (although its Jewish origin makes it unique) classified with all other occultic systems as incompatible with the historic Judaeo-Christian faiths, now popularly teaches that all reality springs directly from God's own essence, denying the truth that God is, always has and always will exist separately and apart from His creation.

Judaism is comprised of several “branches,” also called denominations or streams of Judaism, that exist on a spectrum from traditionally religious to liberal. Yet the Jews are a people, not a religion; being Jewish is not the same thing as being a religious observant Jew. While Judaism is “supposed to be” the religion that Jews practice, there are Jewish people who “pick and choose” whichever elements of Judaism they find personally congenial while others don’t practice Judaism at all. Some have embraced other religions, such as Buddhism. The "branches" of religious Judaism, as they are known today, also cover a varied plot of ground.

Half a century ago, Judaism could be described as comprised of three main branches, and most Jews chose to affiliate with one of them: Orthodox (traditional), Reform (liberal, in Europe also known as Liberal or Progressive), and Conservative (a middle-ground branch; known as Masorti outside North America). There have been some minor offshoots since, such as Reconstructionist Judaism, but by and large American Jewry slotted into one of these so-called “big three,” Orthodox, Conservative or Reform.

Although the big three, become four, is still very much with us, there is today a broader spectrum to Judaism. For example, some may describe themselves as “Conservadox” (bridging Conservative and Orthodox Judaism), and the Reform Temple, in Brooklyn, NY, has become more “Reformative” (bridging Reform and Conservative) than true Reform.

Beliefs and behavior within each of these branches of Judaism has its own more or less “official” take on the Jewish faith, simply attending a particular synagogue doesn’t imply a person believes (or even understands) those official beliefs.

Orthodox Judaism, for example, “officially” teaches that God is real, but you’ll find some agnostics and even atheists who attend Orthodox synagogues. Many would not see this as contradictory because Judaism emphasizes the external, how to physically live, not what to believe. So while religious beliefs that Jewish people were raised with might change or fall away, many choose to retain the visible lifestyle and purported values which they claim inspire it. There are Orthodox ways to behave and live daily life, such as keeping kosher and observing the Sabbath according to Orthodox halakha (Jewish law); but there is no doctrinal requirement of belief beyond the affirmation that God is One (found in the Shema, Deuteronomy 6:4). While it may be true that most Orthodox Jews, for example, believe in a future Messiah, and most Reform do not, one cannot assume that this is always the case for any particular individual.

Unlike previous generations, many Jewish people today don’t affiliate with a synagogue at all. Many formulate their own informal version of Judaism, which do not fit comfortably into any one of the “official” versions of the branches.

Having said that, the following overview of the dominant branches is still used as a general guide to the landscape of Judaism.

In a bygone era, that Branch of Judaism known as Orthodox Judaism was all there was.

Until the late 18th century, there was only one kind of Judaism widely known. What is now called “Orthodox” Judaism was normative and did not need to be distinguished as a branch until other, less traditional, varieties of Judaism began to develop.

Orthodox Judaism emphasizes living according to the Torah (the Law of Moses), as interpreted authoritatively by the rabbinic tradition. According to Orthodox Judaism, Moses not only received the Written Law (the text of the Torah as found in the Hebrew Bible) at Sinai, but they so embellish the truth so as to claim that he also simultaneously received the correct interpretation thru the "Oral Law" (its correct interpretation according to the Rabbis). The Oral Law is so called because it is believed to have been handed down verbally, first from Moses, and then to every generation - but was not finally put into writing in the Mishnah, until the beginning of the 2nd century A.D..

The Mishnah was further developed and interpreted in the Gemara, a commentary on the commentary; Mishnah and Gemara together comprise the Talmud, of which there are actually two: the much shorter, though older Jerusalem Talmud or Yerushalmi, and the longer Babylonian Talmud or Bavli. The Babylonian Talmud is considered the more authoritative of the two, and is now widely available in an 18-volume English edition.

Modern Judaism now has four major divisions or branches, which can be easily distinguished, one from another, and numerous smaller divisions, including the strict Ultra Orthodox, who represent only 1/10th of one % of the total world Jewish population.

This differs in Israel, where in 2010, a report released by the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics showed that 8% of Israel's Jewish population defines itself as ultra-Orthodox, 12% as Orthodox, 13% as traditional-religious, 25% as traditional, and 42% as secular, on a descending scale of religiosity...

Of all the Orthodox Jewish sects, Hasidic Jews are the strictest and they are the ones considered ultra-orthodox. Hasidism is noted for its religious and social conservatism and social seclusion. Its members adhere closely both to Orthodox Jewish practice, with the movement's own unique emphases, and the traditions of Eastern European Jews. The hasidics dress in the Eastern European fashion including elaborate side curls. Haredi Jews reject many of the trappings of technology, such as television and the internet, and schools are segregated by the two genders. Men wear white shirts, black wool suits, and black fedora or Homburg fur hats over black skull caps. Most men grow beards. Women dress modestly, with long sleeves, high necklines, and hair coverings.

A further subset of the Heredic Jews is the Hasidic Jews, a group that focuses on projecting a joyful spiritual aspects to their religious practice. Hasidic Jews usually live within their own special communities and Heredics, are noted for wearing special distinctive clothing features to identify their different Hasadic groups. Male Hasidic Jews wear long, uncut sidelocks, called payot to visibly promote their self righteousness. The men wear elaborate hi-top style hats which to most of us, would be unbearable during the heat of the Israeli summer.

Hasidic Jews are called Hasidim in Hebrew. This word derived from the Hebrew word for loving-kindness (chesed). The Hasidic movement is unique in its focus on the joyful, sometimes appearing frenzied in their observance of God’s commandments (mitzvot), and heartfelt prayer, while claiming boundless love for God and the world He created. Many doctrines of Hasidism have been derived during the trance states of their founders while in the pursuit of subjective experiences within Jewish mysticism (Kabbalah), rather than from God's written Scriptures.

Kabbalistic interpretation of the Torah can be found practiced by Jewish rabbis among all branches of modern Judaism, who reject what God actually said in His ancient Word and substitute their private mystically obtained interpretations of Scripture. Rabbinic interpretations, which were published in the Babylonian Talmud, were the "oral traditions" which Jesus condemned as "the traditions of men."

The Reform movement arose in Germany in the early 19th century as a response to the gradual dropping of legal and political barriers against European Jews, by seeking to integrate Jews into a Christian mainstream society that was increasingly available to them politically and socially. They abbreviated the liturgy, introduced prayers and sermons in the vernacular, singing with organ accompaniment, and they rendered dietary and Sabbath restrictions as optional.

Faced with the opportunity to be accepted into German society without having to convert to Christianity, many German Jews felt compelled to eliminate all tribal and ethnic aspects of their Jewish identity, including beliefs that might be construed as superstitious. They even moved their Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday for a time. In America, the Reform movement became known for its relaxation of ritual overall, preferring to stress the Torah’s teachings on ethics, as they forsook traditional standards of kashrut (keeping kosher) to the point they allowed themselves to indulge in such seafood delicacies as shrimp and lobster.

The branch of Orthodox Jews insist on retaining traditional Jewish laws and customs, not only as they relate to liturgy but also to diet and dress. They demand full submission to the authority of halakhah, the massive accretion of written and oral laws of Judaism, feeling that the revealed will of God, not the value system of a particular age, is the ultimate standard of conduct. Those laws include separation of the sexes during worship, and other roles for women that are at odds with social changes sought by the women’s movement. The Hasidic sects comprise a significant segment of Orthodox Judaism — all Hasidim are Orthodox, but not all Orthodox are by any means Hasidic.

Haredi Judaism, Hasidic Judaism, and Orthodox Judaism are all names for different religious movements within the Jewish faith. The three can be looked at as a family, with Haredi Judaism existing as a subset of Orthodox Judaism, and Hasidic Judaism existing as a further subset of the subset.

Conservative Judaism, originally known as “Historical Judaism,” began in the mid-19th century as a response to the perceived excesses of the Reform movement. Conservative Jews hailed the Westernization of Judaism in the areas of education and culture (embracing modern dress, for instance), but kept the use of Hebrew in the liturgy, the observance of dietary laws and the Sabbath, and almost all Torah rituals. In the 1980s the Conservatives decided to admit women as rabbis. The center of the movement is the Jewish Theological Seminary of New York; more American Jews are affiliated with Conservative synagogues than with either the liberal Reform or the strict Orthodox.

Reconstructionist Judaism was founded in 1922 in the U.S. by Rabbi Mordecai M. Kaplan (1881-1983), in an effort to adapt classical Judaism to current ideas on science, art, and reason. Reconstructionists see Judaism as an evolving civilization rather than a religion, and reject the notion of a personal deity, miracles like the parting of the Red Sea, and the whole concept of the chosen people.

One of their Rabbis is quoted as stating that "the genius of the Jewish people created their Bible: Law, History, Poetry and Major and Minor Prophets during their searching for a God." With about 60,000 members, the Reconstructionist branch of Judaism is a minor branch, headquartered in Philadelphia, but it has strongly influenced the largest modern American branch of Judaism - Reform Judaism.

Reconstructionist Rabbi Kaplan performed the first Bat Mitzvah, conferring on young women a religious rite of passage previously reserved only for Jewish males, but now commonplace among Reform congregations; he also began the havurah movement, a Jewish fellowship, especially an informal one that meets regularly in small groups, to study and observe Jewish rituals, and for discussion and prayer. Recently, Reconstructionism has restored references in its prayerbooks to supernatural events that it had earlier excised as being unbelievable but are now willing to accept on the level of “myth.”

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Although I enjoyed the read, it doesn't detract from the point that the Jewish concept of salvation is different from the Christian concept of salvation...

I have no need to speak on behalf of Jews or Christians...It's a simple fact that stands on its own...

As for arrogance, imagine the level of arrogance it requires to claim that people who have followed a faith for millenia are unaware of what that faith entails...

rumitoid

Okay.

rumitoid

I 100% agree, but as I thought I made clear, our surrender to spirit and grace, that transformation, is to die to self. Have no image. Thank you. What I find curious, however, is that I applauded you in several responses to your posts and you pick the one that appeared to be an attack. Curious.

Rose42

You never mention repentance. There is no dying to self without repentance.

rumitoid

Egads, there are probably another 50 or so things I could add. Or should have by your hateful nitpicking mind. There is one subject on the table--deal with it! Just for fun about repentance, we never need to ask for God's forgiveness of any wrong.