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Did you ever think about the Protestant Theories "Saved by Faith alone" or "Only from declaring and accepting Christ as Lord and Savior"?
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Jan 15, 2022 15:52:17   #
rumitoid
 
These are not in the Bible as the basis for Salvation; they are both shallow reads. But what they are meant to imply, to maintain the power of the Church, is that our works cannot get us into heaven without their help and guidance. A good source of revenue.

If you look deeply and not closely on these shaky presumptions, you would see they are ridiculous. For either to be true it means that we are automatons, we did not have the ability to choose. If we did, than we contributed to our Salvation, and there is not an "alone"or "only" to it, our will helped. "Faith without works is dead." (James 2:14-26). I know what that means, do you? To be "as a little child" is to enter the kingdom (Matthew 18:1-6), and love of enemy is to "be as perfect as the father heaven." It all comes back to our heart "alone" and "only": to object to that stated Scripture is to make us mere puppets. As Paul said, be a slave to Jesus: is that not a choice? If we are as the Calvinist claim in TULIP, we have no choices to know Christ. Hey, that may be for the best...if you were selected.

Reply
Jan 15, 2022 18:06:25   #
Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois
 
rumitoid wrote:
These are not in the Bible as the basis for Salvation; they are both shallow reads. But what they are meant to imply, to maintain the power of the Church, is that our works cannot get us into heaven without their help and guidance. A good source of revenue.

If you look deeply and not closely on these shaky presumptions, you would see they are ridiculous. For either to be true it means that we are automatons, we did not have the ability to choose. If we did, than we contributed to our Salvation, and there is not an "alone"or "only" to it, our will helped. "Faith without works is dead." (James 2:14-26). I know what that means, do you? To be "as a little child" is to enter the kingdom (Matthew 18:1-6), and love of enemy is to "be as perfect as the father heaven." It all comes back to our heart "alone" and "only": to object to that stated Scripture is to make us mere puppets. As Paul said, be a slave to Jesus: is that not a choice? If we are as the Calvinist claim in TULIP, we have no choices to know Christ. Hey, that may be for the best...if you were selected.
These are not in the Bible as the basis for Salvat... (show quote)

I don't have time for your games so I’m going to keep this short and sweet and hopefully simple enough so you can clear up your confusion and comprehend it. You’re a smart guy, I’m sure you can figure it out.

You are considered righteous or saved by grace through your belief/faith in God (Jesus Christ). And it is as Ephesians says, a “gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

Genesis 15:6
6 And [Abram] believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith.

BELIE´F: The primary sense of believe is to throw or put to, or to assent to; to leave with or to rest on; to rely. In theology, faith, or a firm persuasion of the truths of religion.

RĪGHTEOUS: Just; accordant to the divine law.

SA´VED: Preserved from evil, injury or destruction

Webster, N. (1813): An American dictionary of the English language (First Edition)

Reply
Jan 15, 2022 19:51:11   #
Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois
 
rumitoid wrote:
..."Faith without works is dead." (James 2:14-26). I know what that means, do you?...

Tell me rumi, you say what this means. Please share it with me.

Reply
 
 
Jan 15, 2022 20:48:45   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
rumitoid wrote:
These are not in the Bible as the basis for Salvation; they are both shallow reads. But what they are meant to imply, to maintain the power of the Church, is that our works cannot get us into heaven without their help and guidance. A good source of revenue.

If you look deeply and not closely on these shaky presumptions, you would see they are ridiculous. For either to be true it means that we are automatons, we did not have the ability to choose. If we did, than we contributed to our Salvation, and there is not an "alone"or "only" to it, our will helped. "Faith without works is dead." (James 2:14-26). I know what that means, do you? To be "as a little child" is to enter the kingdom (Matthew 18:1-6), and love of enemy is to "be as perfect as the father heaven." It all comes back to our heart "alone" and "only": to object to that stated Scripture is to make us mere puppets. As Paul said, be a slave to Jesus: is that not a choice? If we are as the Calvinist claim in TULIP, we have no choices to know Christ. Hey, that may be for the best...if you were selected.
These are not in the Bible as the basis for Salvat... (show quote)


The entire idea of salvation is missing from the OT...

It's not something that the Jews ever recognized not sought...

Pauline theology...

Reply
Jan 15, 2022 22:43:08   #
rumitoid
 
Parky60 wrote:
I don't have time for your games so I’m going to keep this short and sweet and hopefully simple enough so you can clear up your confusion and comprehend it. You’re a smart guy, I’m sure you can figure it out.

You are considered righteous or saved by grace through your belief/faith in God (Jesus Christ). And it is as Ephesians says, a “gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

Genesis 15:6
6 And [Abram] believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith.

BELIE´F: The primary sense of believe is to throw or put to, or to assent to; to leave with or to rest on; to rely. In theology, faith, or a firm persuasion of the truths of religion.

RĪGHTEOUS: Just; accordant to the divine law.

SA´VED: Preserved from evil, injury or destruction

Webster, N. (1813): An American dictionary of the English language (First Edition)
I don't have time for your games so I’m going to k... (show quote)


Through Grace? What about the choice of faith, or are you saying there is no choice?

Reply
Jan 16, 2022 07:45:47   #
Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois
 
rumitoid wrote:
Through Grace? What about the choice of faith, or are you saying there is no choice?

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

Paul gives us information about God's salvation and explains what saves us and what does NOT save us. People like you rumi endeavor to go to God's Heaven in your own way because you will not recognize God's authority and His truth.

If you are depending on religion, good deeds, obeying the Golden Rule, money, baby baptism, catechism, your family heritage (Grandma went to church), self-affliction, church membership, yourself, some mysterious event such as "I saw Jesus at the foot of my bed," to deliver your soul from Hell and take you to Heaven, it won't happen.

God's provision of salvation is by His saving grace when you put your faith -- free-will choice to believe -- in His Son, Jesus Christ to forgive and cleanse you of your sins. Salvation is not earned. It is His gift to those who trust in Him. If man attained salvation through his deeds, he would boast about them in Heaven, which in turn would make Heaven a miserable place because of the constant bragging.

rumi, if you went to your neighbor's house and mowed their lawn, what would you think if you saw them get out and mow it again right after you left? It would not be necessary because the work was already done! Right!? The work of salvation is already done too! It was completed on the cross. Jesus cried, "It is finished!" It is foolish for someone to try to work their way to Heaven or earn their way because the work of salvation is already done!

People try to impress God with their good deeds and works in order to get themselves into Heaven. But God is not impressed because He has already paid the price by giving His son Jesus to die for our sins. Only Christ has the power to save us and rescue us from the highway to Hell.

Reply
Jan 16, 2022 09:22:22   #
TexaCan Loc: Homeward Bound!
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
The entire idea of salvation is missing from the OT...

It's not something that the Jews ever recognized not sought...

Pauline theology...


If verses must be ignored or entire books discarded in order to support a theology, one might want to question the theology.

Timothy 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What was the Old Testament way of salvation?
Old Testament salvation

ANSWER

How people were saved during the time of the Old Testament is a confusing question to some. We know that, in the New Testament era, salvation comes by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (John 1:12; Ephesians 2:8-9). Jesus is the Way (John 14:6). But, before Christ, what was the way?

A common misconception about the Old Testament way of salvation is that Jews were saved by keeping the Law. But we know from Scripture that that is not true. Galatians 3:11 says, “Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for ‘The righteous shall live by faith.’” Some might want to dismiss this passage as only applying to the New Testament, but Paul is quoting Habakkuk 2:4—salvation by faith, apart from the Law was an Old Testament principle. Paul taught that the purpose of the Law was to serve as a “tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith” (Galatians 3:24). Also, in Romans 3:20 Paul makes the point that keeping the Law did not save either Old or New Testament Jews because “no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law.” The Law was never intended to save anyone; the purpose of the Law was to make us “conscious of sin.”

If the Old Testament way of salvation was not keeping the Law, then how were people saved? Fortunately, the answer to that question is easily found in Scripture, so there can be no doubt as to what was the Old Testament way of salvation. In Romans 4 the apostle Paul makes it very clear that the Old Testament way of salvation was the same as the New Testament way, which is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. To prove this, Paul points us to Abraham, who was saved by faith: “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness” (Romans 4:3). Again, Paul quotes the Old Testament to prove his point—Genesis 15:6, this time. Abraham could not have been saved by keeping the Law, because he lived over 400 years before the Law was given!

Paul then shows that David was also saved by faith (Romans 4:6-8, quoting Psalm 32:1-2). Paul continues to establish that the Old Testament way of salvation was through faith alone. In Romans 4:23-24 he writes, “The words ‘it was credited to him’ were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.” In other words, righteousness is “credited” or given to those who have faith in God—Abraham, David, and we all share the same way of salvation.

Much of Romans and Galatians addresses the fact that there is only one way of salvation and only one gospel message. Throughout history people have tried to pervert the gospel by adding human works to it, requiring certain things to be done to “earn” salvation. But the Bible’s clear message is that the way of salvation has always been through faith. In the Old Testament, it was faith in the promise that God would send a Savior someday. Those who lived in the time of the Old Testament looked forward to the Messiah and believed God’s promise of the coming Servant of the Lord (Isaiah 53). Those who exercised such faith were saved. Today we look back on the life, death, and resurrection of the Savior and are saved by faith in Jesus Christ’s atonement for our sins (Romans 10:9-10).

The gospel is not an exclusively New Testament message. The Old Testament contained it as well: “The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: ‘All nations will be blessed through you.’ So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith” (Galatians 3:8-9, quoting Genesis 12:3).

As early as Genesis 3:15, we see the promise of a coming Savior, and throughout the Old Testament there are hundreds of promises that the Messiah would “save His people from their sins” (Matthew 1:21; cf. Isaiah 53:5-6). Job’s faith was in the fact that he knew that his “Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth” (Job 19:25). Clearly, Old Testament saints were aware of the promised Redeemer, and they were saved by faith in that Savior, the same way people are saved today. There is no other way. Jesus is “‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone.’ Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:11-12, quoting Psalm 118:22).

https://www.gotquestions.org/Old-Testament-salvation.html

Reply
 
 
Jan 16, 2022 09:39:03   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
TexaCan wrote:
If verses must be ignored or entire books discarded in order to support a theology, one might want to question the theology.

Timothy 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What was the Old Testament way of salvation?
Old Testament salvation

ANSWER

How people were saved during the time of the Old Testament is a confusing question to some. We know that, in the New Testament era, salvation comes by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (John 1:12; Ephesians 2:8-9). Jesus is the Way (John 14:6). But, before Christ, what was the way?

A common misconception about the Old Testament way of salvation is that Jews were saved by keeping the Law. But we know from Scripture that that is not true. Galatians 3:11 says, “Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for ‘The righteous shall live by faith.’” Some might want to dismiss this passage as only applying to the New Testament, but Paul is quoting Habakkuk 2:4—salvation by faith, apart from the Law was an Old Testament principle. Paul taught that the purpose of the Law was to serve as a “tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith” (Galatians 3:24). Also, in Romans 3:20 Paul makes the point that keeping the Law did not save either Old or New Testament Jews because “no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law.” The Law was never intended to save anyone; the purpose of the Law was to make us “conscious of sin.”

If the Old Testament way of salvation was not keeping the Law, then how were people saved? Fortunately, the answer to that question is easily found in Scripture, so there can be no doubt as to what was the Old Testament way of salvation. In Romans 4 the apostle Paul makes it very clear that the Old Testament way of salvation was the same as the New Testament way, which is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. To prove this, Paul points us to Abraham, who was saved by faith: “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness” (Romans 4:3). Again, Paul quotes the Old Testament to prove his point—Genesis 15:6, this time. Abraham could not have been saved by keeping the Law, because he lived over 400 years before the Law was given!

Paul then shows that David was also saved by faith (Romans 4:6-8, quoting Psalm 32:1-2). Paul continues to establish that the Old Testament way of salvation was through faith alone. In Romans 4:23-24 he writes, “The words ‘it was credited to him’ were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.” In other words, righteousness is “credited” or given to those who have faith in God—Abraham, David, and we all share the same way of salvation.

Much of Romans and Galatians addresses the fact that there is only one way of salvation and only one gospel message. Throughout history people have tried to pervert the gospel by adding human works to it, requiring certain things to be done to “earn” salvation. But the Bible’s clear message is that the way of salvation has always been through faith. In the Old Testament, it was faith in the promise that God would send a Savior someday. Those who lived in the time of the Old Testament looked forward to the Messiah and believed God’s promise of the coming Servant of the Lord (Isaiah 53). Those who exercised such faith were saved. Today we look back on the life, death, and resurrection of the Savior and are saved by faith in Jesus Christ’s atonement for our sins (Romans 10:9-10).

The gospel is not an exclusively New Testament message. The Old Testament contained it as well: “The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: ‘All nations will be blessed through you.’ So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith” (Galatians 3:8-9, quoting Genesis 12:3).

As early as Genesis 3:15, we see the promise of a coming Savior, and throughout the Old Testament there are hundreds of promises that the Messiah would “save His people from their sins” (Matthew 1:21; cf. Isaiah 53:5-6). Job’s faith was in the fact that he knew that his “Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth” (Job 19:25). Clearly, Old Testament saints were aware of the promised Redeemer, and they were saved by faith in that Savior, the same way people are saved today. There is no other way. Jesus is “‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone.’ Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:11-12, quoting Psalm 118:22).

https://www.gotquestions.org/Old-Testament-salvation.html
If verses must be ignored or entire books discarde... (show quote)


The misconception isn't how Jews were being saved...

That's nonsense...

No Jew ever concerned himself with it...

Reply
Jan 16, 2022 12:51:08   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Rather, no Old Testament Jew ever concerned himself with anything other than Salvation, Canuckus.

Old Testament Salvation/Soteriology

The prevailing consensus among religious pundits seems to be that there is an unbridgeable chasm between Judaism and Christianity. There are definite differences in the practice of the two religious systems, but they do have a significant number of common features. Christians worship the Messiah who was a practicing Jew during His life. All of the authors of the New Testament, with one exception, were practicing Jews. The Old Testament, which Christians revere as the inscripturated Word of God, is a distinctly Jewish writing.

Because this is the case, and God, Yahwee, never changes, then the plan of salvation, - "reestablishing fellowship between sinful persons and God" should be the same.

This plan of salvation was formulated even before the creation of the material universe (1 Peter 1:20. “He (the Lamb of God, Christ) was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was manifested in these last times for your sake”).1

While the manifestation was not given to those of Old Testament times, the principle, meaning, and efficacy of the plan of salvation were clearly known.

As Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 10:11. “These things happened to them as examples and were written for our instruction, on whom the ends of the ages have come.” While the examples referred to are manifestations of God’s wrath on Israel when they disobeyed or strayed from God, the remedy, a blood sacrifice, was experienced by Adam and Eve as the first sacrifice was carried out by God Himself in Genesis 3:21, to show Adam and Eve that sin has the consequences of death.

God Himself made tunics of the skin of slain animals for Adam and Eve so that their nudity could be clothed, and was understood by Adam's progeny, for at the altar (Hebrews 11:4) by faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, who offered only the fruit of his own labor.

In the Old Testament only one person, the high priest, was permitted access to the Ark of the Covenant and then only once a year during Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement) leading one to believe that those not of the priestly class would not fully understand what was occurring during this sacrifice. However, it is reasonably clear from the Old Testament Scriptures that enough was understood about the character and nature of God to know His attitude about sin and the requirements to remedy the separation that sin imposed between the sinner and God.

Even before the establishment of the nation Israel the need for a blood sacrifice was understood. Abel’s offering of the “firstlings” of his flocks met this stipulation. The concept of substitutionary atonement is clearly implied in John 5:39. “You study the scriptures thoroughly because you think in them you possess eternal life, and it is these same scriptures that testify about me;” The testimony was certainly more than just the coming of the Messiah, it included His sacrificial death.

In Luke 24:27. it is stated “Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them the things written about himself in all the scriptures.” Since the statement includes all the scriptures, it, too, must include the sacrifice of the Lamb of God. Again Luke states in Acts 17:11. referring to the Berean believers, “These Jews were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica; for they eagerly received the message, examining the scriptures carefully every day to see if these things were so.” For the Apostle Paul of the tribe of Benjamin, the “things” always included the death, burial and resurrection of the Messiah.

There are over fifty references to the “scriptures” in the New Testament. Since these writings are not referring to themselves, they must be referring to the Old Testament. The single exception to this is II Peter 3:15,16. “15, And regard the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as also our dear brother Paul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him, 16, speaking of these things in all his letters. Some things in these letters are hard to understand, things the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they also do to the rest of the scriptures.” The remainder of the New Testament references to the “scriptures” refer to the Old Testament Hebrew text.

Examination of the Old Testament Scriptures illustrates the plan of salvation, as recorded there, to those who may only be familiar with New Testament Scriptures and also to those who only use the Old Testament Scriptures.

The first thing that must be understood when considering the plan of salvation is the relationship between humans and the infinite, sovereign God. In Psalms, 11:7. we read, “For the Lord (Yahwee) is righteous, He loveth righteousness; The upright shall behold His face.”2

We might add “only” the upright shall behold His face. Who can claim to be “righteous” and “upright?” Consider what the prophet Isaiah, said in chapter 64:5. “And we are all become as one that is unclean, and all our righteousnesses are as a polluted garment; and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.” Take us away from what? From the presence and fellowship of God. Even those things, which appear to us as “good” or “righteous” works, cannot bring us into His presence. Ezekiel 33:12b. continues with the admonition that “The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression.” The context suggests that we cannot “build up” good works that will suffice to please God when we ignore or disregard His moral absolutes.

If we are trusting in good works to please God, we are in trouble indeed! Should we be reduced to a point of despair? Is there no way to please God? How can we be declared righteous in God’s sight? We must have a righteousness that He sees as righteous. Two things are required for this righteousness, faith on our part, and an atonement on God’s part. First, faith or belief in what God can do, has done, and will do. Genesis 15:6. very clearly states how this affects God. “And he (Abram) believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.” This thought is continued in Habakkuk 2:4b. “But the righteous shall live by his faith.” This is a comprehensive, general standard for all time, applicable even today.

What is this faith? Isaiah gives the answer in chapter 26:3; “The mind stayed on Thee Thou keepest in perfect peace; Because it trusteth in Thee. Trust ye in the LORD for ever, for the LORD is GOD, an everlasting Rock.”

Faith is trust, trust in the actions and desires of the LORD. Many people would declare that they have “faith”, but when pressed to explain “faith” in what, it usually boils down to their own works, beliefs and actions. According to Isaiah this would be misplaced faith. Our faith cannot, and must not, be in ourselves. The basic issue in salvation is redemption or atonement. If there is no way that we can achieve this, what then must happen?

The cost of salvation is much too high for man to purchase for himself. The psalmist wrote in Psalms 49:8,9; “No man can by any means redeem his brother, Nor give to God a ransom for him - For too costly is the redemption of their soul, and must be let alone for ever…”

These could be verses of despair, but there is hope as verse 16 states, “But God will redeem my soul from the power of the nether world; for He shall receive me.” God will do it! God will make atonement for our sin! The object of our faith is in God and His redemptive plan. That this plan was not hidden in Old Testament times is clearly seen in the Passover (slain lamb’s blood), the Day of Atonement, when the people’s sin is confessed over a pure animal and then the animal is slain.

God declares in Leviticus 17:11; “For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that maketh atonement by reason of the life.”

A curious exchange took place when the animal’s innocent life was transferred to the people, and the people’s impure lives were transferred to the animal. Known as the “exchanged life” principle, this was necessary because of God’s justice and sense of righteousness. Ezekiel 18:4; “Behold, all souls are Mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine; the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”

That God should choose to accept a substitution to die in our place is not only a matter of fact, but also a matter of faith. The sacrifice, made on our behalf, should cause us to detest our sin and have hearts full of repentance. This attitude is necessary to satisfy God. As much as some do not like the concept of bloody sacrifices, God even more so. In Psalm 51:18,19, we read “For Thou delightest not in sacrifice, else would I give it; Thou hast no pleasure in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise.”

Since God is immutable, His method of redemption never changes. Believers today are redeemed through exactly the same system that was given to Israel in the past, a substitutionary blood sacrifice using the exchanged life principle.

The current system is best shown by selected verses from Isaiah 53: 4. “Smitten of God, and afflicted.” 5. “But he was wounded because of our transgressions...” 6. “All we like sheep did go astray...And the LORD hath made to light on him The iniquity of us all.” 7. “As a lamb that is led to the slaughter, And as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; Yea, he opened not his mouth.” 8. “For he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.” 9,10. “Although he had done no violence, Neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him...” 11. “And their iniquities he did bear.” 12. “Yet he bore the sin of many.”

These references are about Israel’s Messiah who exchanged His life for theirs. Who is this Messiah? What is He like? What are His credentials for being an acceptable sacrifice? Micah 5:1. gives an answer, “But thou, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, Out of thee shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; Whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days” (emphasis mine). The “ancient days” are from eternity past, without beginning, and the reference is to Deity Himself. Since the sacrifice had to be without spot or blemish, that is, perfect in regard to God’s moral absolutes, only God Himself would suffice.

In the New Testament, Paul, a learned Jew fully conversant with the Old Testament scriptures, sums up the whole system in just one verse in 2 Corinthians 5:21 “God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the righteousness of God.”

Christians, and Jewish people, the scattered tribes of Israel, should not view the plan of salvation in two distinct and separate ways. The Old Testament, just as clearly as the New Testament, presents the way of redemption and salvation. Israel was to look forward, in faith, to the coming, sacrificial Messiah, and the Christians look back, in faith, to the finished redemptive work of the Messiah.

The single fact is clear; the Messiah of God, God Himself, came to earth to exchange His life for each one of us. We need only place our faith in Him to secure God’s forgiveness for our sin.

“...to the Jew first and also to the Greek.” (Romans 1:16b.) was not written to place a wall between the Jews and Gentiles. It only distinguished the sequence in which God chose to reveal His plan of salvation. Today Yahwee God accepts both Jew and Gentile on the basis of their faith in the death and resurrection of His Messiah as a substitutionary sacrifice, suitable to completely pay the penalty due us for our sin.

1 All New Testament Biblical quotations taken from: New English Translation (NET), The Biblical Studies Foundation, www.bible.org, Dallas, 1998, unless otherwise noted.

2 All Old Testament Biblical quotations taken from:The Holy Scriptures, according to the Masoretic Text, The Jewish Publication Society of America, Philadelphia, 1955.

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Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
The misconception isn't how Jews were being saved...

That's nonsense...

No Jew ever concerned himself with it...

Reply
Jan 16, 2022 17:08:42   #
Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois
 
What some of our friends on this thread fail to realize is that it appears that in Judaism, the Jew believes that God, as the universal spirit and Creator of the World, is the source of all salvation for humanity, provided an individual honors God by observing His precepts – being physically circumcised and observing the Law, in other words “works.”

Based on this, I get the impression that Jews may somehow feel that by just possessing the Law and knowing its rituals is enough to put them in a right relationship with God. What they think is a guarantee of salvation turns out to be a guarantee of condemnation.

I want to let you in on a little secret. You can't please God! God is no respecter of persons. No matter how good you get, you will never be good enough to please Him. For Isaiah 64 says that all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags. You could memorize the Hebrew Bible and refrain from committing almost every sin in it and still go to Hell. Because as James tells us, “Whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.” (James 2:10).

There is only thing that will save the soul: A salvation experience where faith is placed in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ. The bottom line is that we can say anything we please, but until we have been saved by the blood of the Lamb, we are still Hell bound sinners.

For it is written that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23) and that “by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.” (Ephesians 2:8)

Reply
Jan 16, 2022 18:54:26   #
TexaCan Loc: Homeward Bound!
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
The misconception isn't how Jews were being saved...

That's nonsense...

No Jew ever concerned himself with it...


You have a habit of making sweeping declarations with no proof with your one and two one-liners expressing nothing more than your opinion to support your Unitarian theology while ignoring all the scriptures and evidence that has been presented on this thread from others. If it’s “nonsense”……….prove it with more than just ATTITUDE.

Reply
 
 
Jan 16, 2022 19:45:13   #
TexaCan Loc: Homeward Bound!
 
rumitoid wrote:
These are not in the Bible as the basis for Salvation; they are both shallow reads. But what they are meant to imply, to maintain the power of the Church, is that our works cannot get us into heaven without their help and guidance. A good source of revenue.

If you look deeply and not closely on these shaky presumptions, you would see they are ridiculous. For either to be true it means that we are automatons, we did not have the ability to choose. If we did, than we contributed to our Salvation, and there is not an "alone"or "only" to it, our will helped. "Faith without works is dead." (James 2:14-26). I know what that means, do you? To be "as a little child" is to enter the kingdom (Matthew 18:1-6), and love of enemy is to "be as perfect as the father heaven." It all comes back to our heart "alone" and "only": to object to that stated Scripture is to make us mere puppets. As Paul said, be a slave to Jesus: is that not a choice? If we are as the Calvinist claim in TULIP, we have no choices to know Christ. Hey, that may be for the best...if you were selected.
These are not in the Bible as the basis for Salvat... (show quote)


Rumi when you joined this forum in 2013 you supported salvation through faith in Jesus Christ’s birth, death on the cross, resurrection, or as we call the Gospel of Jesus Christ! Many times you supported and defended the gospel! At some point you started preaching your “love is all that matters” sermon which includes……be as perfect as God, do for the least of these, be as a little child, love your enemy, and more! Did you really change your mind or was this another ploy for getting attention. It’s impossible to actually refute the gospel without ignoring much of the Bible……..and you know better!

If you have really had a change of heart, refute the Gospel using scriptures, if you can.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The elements of the gospel are clearly stated in 1 Corinthians 15:3–6, a key passage concerning the good news of God: “For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living.” Notice, first, that Paul “received” the gospel and then “passed it on”; this is a divine message, not a man-made invention. Second, the gospel is “of first importance.” Everywhere the apostles went, they preached the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. Third, the message of the gospel is accompanied by proofs: Christ died for our sins (proved by His burial), and He rose again the third day (proved by the eyewitnesses). Fourth, all this was done “according to the Scriptures”; the theme of the whole Bible is the salvation of mankind through Christ. The Bible is the gospel.

“I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile” (Romans 1:16). The gospel is a bold message, and we are not ashamed of proclaiming it. It is a powerful message, because it is God’s good news. It is a saving message, the only thing that can truly reform the human heart. It is a universal message, for Jews and Gentiles both. And the gospel is received by faith; salvation is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8–9).

The gospel is the good news that God loves the world enough to give His only Son to die for our sin (John 3:16). The gospel is good news because our salvation and eternal life and home in heaven are guaranteed through Christ (John 14:1–4). “He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you” (1 Peter 1:3–4).

The gospel is good news when we understand that we do not (and cannot) earn our salvation; the work of redemption and justification is complete, having been finished on the cross (John 19:30). Jesus is the propitiation for our sins (1 John 2:2). The gospel is the good news that we, who were once enemies of God, have been reconciled by the blood of Christ and adopted into the family of God (Romans 5:10; John 1:12). “See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are!” (1 John 3:1). The gospel is the good news that “there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1).

To reject the gospel is to embrace the bad news. Condemnation before God is the result of a lack of faith in the Son of God, God’s only provision for salvation. “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son” (John 3:17–18). God has given a doomed world good news: the Gospel of Jesus Christ! got questions.org.

Reply
Jan 17, 2022 02:29:26   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
The Prophet Isaiah’s gospel message was not too different from the gospel we preach today. It went like this:

God is holy (43:15).
Everyone has sinned against God (59:12).
Sin separates us from God (v. 2).
Messiah will deal with the sin issue (53:6).
We must seek and call on Him to receive redemption (55:6).


Isaiah is recognized as exceptional in that same regard, TexaCan, - in that same Theology of God's Salvation.

March/April 2012 Peter Colón,
Israel My Glory

"Not long ago an amazing discovery was made near Tel Megiddo in northern Israel. It was a Greek dedicatory inscription found in the remains of a third-century church. The inscription read, “The God-loving Akeptous [the name of a woman] has offered the table [possibly a communion table] to God Jesus Christ as a memorial.”

The words God Jesus Christ reveal how early Christians - made up of believing Jews and Gentiles - viewed Jesus even before the Nicene Council of A.D. 325, which upheld that God is a Triunity. Approximately 1,000 years earlier, the Jewish prophet Isaiah had alluded to the same thing (Isaiah 48:16).

So many of Isaiah’s prophecies, in fact, focused on mankind’s sinfulness and a coming, divine Redeemer that Isaiah is often referred to as the Bible’s first evangelist; and the book of Isaiah often called “The Book of Salvation.”

Dr. Victor Buksbazen, whose commentary on Isaiah is the definitive work on the subject, wrote,

"In Isaiah Biblical prophecy reached its inspired climax. What Demosthenes was to Greek oratory, Isaiah was to Hebrew prophecy. He was God’s voice to Israel, the conscience of the nation, the herald of the Messiah and of His universal Kingdom….For many centuries Isaiah has been known as 'the Old Testament evangelist' and his prophecies have been described as 'the Gospel according to Isaiah.' The prophet Isaiah was more often on the lips of our Lord and of His apostles than any other prophet.1"

Proclaimer of the Messiah: The Gospel According to Isaiah

Jesus read from Isaiah when He was at the synagogue in Nazareth. “As His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read” (Luke 4:16):

"The Spirit of the Lᴏʀᴅ is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel [good tidings] to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lᴏʀᴅ" (vv. 18–19; cf. Isa. 61:1–2).

He then handed the scroll back to the attendant and sat down. With all eyes fixed on Him, He declared, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing” (Luke 4:21). Jesus was telling them He was the divine Servant, the “Anointed One” (Hebrew, Moshiach) about whom Isaiah spoke.

Wrote Buksbazen, “Jewish commentators apply these words to the prophet himself. But no prophet ever spoke of himself in this manner….The mission described in verses 1–3 is of such a sweeping nature that only God Himself is able to perform it.”2

The book of Isaiah contains many direct and indirect references to the Messiah, calling Him “the Branch of the Lᴏʀᴅ” (4:2), the “Rod from the stem of Jesse” (11:1), “[God’s] Servant” (42:1), and “[God’s] Elect One in whom My soul delights” (v. 1).

It declares Him to be the rightful heir to the throne of David (9:7; cf. Luke1:32–33) and says He will authenticate His Messiahship by healing the blind, deaf, and lame (Isaiah. 29:18; 35:5–6; cf. Matthew 11:3–5; Luke 7:22). He also will establish a New Covenant (Isaiah 55:3–4; cf. Luke 22:20) and will someday establish a literal, Messianic Kingdom over which He will reign and in which He will be worshiped (Isaiah 9:7; 66:22–23; cf. Luke 1:32–33; 22:18, 29–30; John 18:36).

Isaiah’s One and Only Savior

The people of Israel viewed God as their Savior (Isaiah 43:3; 45:15, 21). The experiences of the Exodus and their desert wanderings convinced them only God could save. Under inspiration, Isaiah prophesied of a Redeemer who would come into this world as a babe: “For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (9:6). Wrote Buksbazen,

His birth as a child indicates His humanity. That He is given “unto us” (lanu) as a son, emphasizes the fact that He is God’s gift to His people. His supernatural character is further indicated by the fact that…in a peculiar way God has entrusted to Him the rule over His people….The peculiar double-membered four names given to the child underline His divine character.3

Buksbazen also said Jewish commentators did not dispute the Messianic nature of the prophecy “until modern times, when the Christological controversy became very heated.”4 In fact, Targum Jonathan, a first-century Aramaic translation and commentary of the Hebrew Bible, paraphrased Isaiah 9:6 this way:

For to us a Son is born, to us a Son is given: and He shall receive the Law upon Him to keep it; and His Name is called from of old, Wonderful, Counselor, Eloha [God on High], The Mighty, Abiding to Eternity, The Messiah, because peace shall be multiplied on us in His days.

This rabbinic view agrees with the prophet Isaiah, that the Son who is “born” and “given” is God.

Anyone who knew and understood Isaiah’s prophecy must have rejoiced when they learned what the angel told the shepherds in Bethlehem: “For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord” (Luke 2:11). The divine Messiah had come, and He would redeem His people.

Isaiah’s One and Only Way

The Suffering Servant Song in Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12 is viewed as the highest pinnacle of Isaiah’s prophecy. An unbiased reading can yield no other interpretation than that of a Messiah who suffers, dies, and rises again to bring eternal redemption to His people: “But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed” (53:5).

The Suffering Servant is the Suffering Savior. John Richard Sampey (1863–1946), a scholar who later became president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, said concerning Isaiah 53,

"The New Testament application of this great prophecy to Jesus is not an accommodation of words originally spoken of Israel as a nation, but a recognition of the fact that the prophet painted in advance a portrait of which Jesus Christ is the original."5

The rabbis once declared, “All the prophets prophesied concerning, or up to, the days of the Messiah” (Talmud Sanhedrin 99a). As Jesus stood in the Nazareth synagogue, perhaps a few realized the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecies. How welcome His good news would have been to those who believed.

EndNotes

Victor Buksbazen, The Prophet Isaiah (1971: Bellmawr, NJ: The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, Inc., 2008), 78.
Ibid., 462.
Ibid. 163.
Ibid.
Richard Sampey, cited in Gilbert Guffin, The Gospel in Isaiah (Nashville, TN: Convention Press, 1968), 79.


TexaCan wrote:
If verses must be ignored or entire books discarded in order to support a theology, one might want to question the theology.

Timothy 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What was the Old Testament way of salvation?
Old Testament salvation

ANSWER

How people were saved during the time of the Old Testament is a confusing question to some. We know that, in the New Testament era, salvation comes by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (John 1:12; Ephesians 2:8-9). Jesus is the Way (John 14:6). But, before Christ, what was the way?

A common misconception about the Old Testament way of salvation is that Jews were saved by keeping the Law. But we know from Scripture that that is not true. Galatians 3:11 says, “Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for ‘The righteous shall live by faith.’” Some might want to dismiss this passage as only applying to the New Testament, but Paul is quoting Habakkuk 2:4—salvation by faith, apart from the Law was an Old Testament principle. Paul taught that the purpose of the Law was to serve as a “tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith” (Galatians 3:24). Also, in Romans 3:20 Paul makes the point that keeping the Law did not save either Old or New Testament Jews because “no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law.” The Law was never intended to save anyone; the purpose of the Law was to make us “conscious of sin.”

If the Old Testament way of salvation was not keeping the Law, then how were people saved? Fortunately, the answer to that question is easily found in Scripture, so there can be no doubt as to what was the Old Testament way of salvation. In Romans 4 the apostle Paul makes it very clear that the Old Testament way of salvation was the same as the New Testament way, which is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. To prove this, Paul points us to Abraham, who was saved by faith: “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness” (Romans 4:3). Again, Paul quotes the Old Testament to prove his point—Genesis 15:6, this time. Abraham could not have been saved by keeping the Law, because he lived over 400 years before the Law was given!

Paul then shows that David was also saved by faith (Romans 4:6-8, quoting Psalm 32:1-2). Paul continues to establish that the Old Testament way of salvation was through faith alone. In Romans 4:23-24 he writes, “The words ‘it was credited to him’ were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.” In other words, righteousness is “credited” or given to those who have faith in God—Abraham, David, and we all share the same way of salvation.

Much of Romans and Galatians addresses the fact that there is only one way of salvation and only one gospel message. Throughout history people have tried to pervert the gospel by adding human works to it, requiring certain things to be done to “earn” salvation. But the Bible’s clear message is that the way of salvation has always been through faith. In the Old Testament, it was faith in the promise that God would send a Savior someday. Those who lived in the time of the Old Testament looked forward to the Messiah and believed God’s promise of the coming Servant of the Lord (Isaiah 53). Those who exercised such faith were saved. Today we look back on the life, death, and resurrection of the Savior and are saved by faith in Jesus Christ’s atonement for our sins (Romans 10:9-10).

The gospel is not an exclusively New Testament message. The Old Testament contained it as well: “The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: ‘All nations will be blessed through you.’ So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith” (Galatians 3:8-9, quoting Genesis 12:3).

As early as Genesis 3:15, we see the promise of a coming Savior, and throughout the Old Testament there are hundreds of promises that the Messiah would “save His people from their sins” (Matthew 1:21; cf. Isaiah 53:5-6). Job’s faith was in the fact that he knew that his “Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth” (Job 19:25). Clearly, Old Testament saints were aware of the promised Redeemer, and they were saved by faith in that Savior, the same way people are saved today. There is no other way. Jesus is “‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone.’ Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:11-12, quoting Psalm 118:22).

https://www.gotquestions.org/Old-Testament-salvation.html
If verses must be ignored or entire books discarde... (show quote)

Reply
Jan 17, 2022 02:56:34   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
TexaCan wrote:
You have a habit of making sweeping declarations with no proof with your one and two one-liners expressing nothing more than your opinion to support your Unitarian theology while ignoring all the scriptures and evidence that has been presented on this thread from others. If it’s “nonsense”……….prove it with more than just ATTITUDE.


Jewish theology doesn't require one to be Unitarian to understand...

Have you never spoken to a Jew about their faith???

https://www.speakingtree.in/article/the-concept-of-salvation-in-judaism" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13051-salvationhttps://www.speakingtree.in/article/the-concept-of-salvation-in-judaism

The Christian concept of salvation does not exist in Judaism...

It's just that simple...

Reply
Jan 17, 2022 12:14:41   #
Rose42
 
rumitoid wrote:
These are not in the Bible as the basis for Salvation; they are both shallow reads. But what they are meant to imply, to maintain the power of the Church, is that our works cannot get us into heaven without their help and guidance. A good source of revenue.

If you look deeply and not closely on these shaky presumptions, you would see they are ridiculous. For either to be true it means that we are automatons, we did not have the ability to choose. If we did, than we contributed to our Salvation, and there is not an "alone"or "only" to it, our will helped. "Faith without works is dead." (James 2:14-26). I know what that means, do you? To be "as a little child" is to enter the kingdom (Matthew 18:1-6), and love of enemy is to "be as perfect as the father heaven." It all comes back to our heart "alone" and "only": to object to that stated Scripture is to make us mere puppets. As Paul said, be a slave to Jesus: is that not a choice? If we are as the Calvinist claim in TULIP, we have no choices to know Christ. Hey, that may be for the best...if you were selected.
These are not in the Bible as the basis for Salvat... (show quote)


I hope people realize you don’t speak for Christianity.

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