rumitoid

Yes.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Are you implying that they could not possibly be scholars or experts? Gnosticism existed before the advent of Christianity. Peter, Paul, John and the writer of Hebrews were probably addressing budding Gnostic ideas when they insisted that Jesus came in the flesh and was a man like us. The majority of Gnostic manuscripts found at Nag Hammadi as well as the Gospel of Judas and other such writings are clearly a reaction to the already-existing history-based Christianity of those whom we call the orthodox-- those whose faith was based on the oral teaching and writings of the apostles and their associates (the apostolic writings were widely distributed and accepted throughout Christendom although not every area had all of the books that made it into the New Testament and some accepted books that did not make the cut). And mind you, they were already making a reputation for themselves amongst the Pagan sect that called themselves Christian.

I think that it is rather arrogant of anyone claiming that only Christians have the ability to learn and study, to become scholars.

rumitoid

You are a piece of work, ginny. I never stated, suggested, or even obtusely hinted that "only Christians have the ability to learn and study, to become scholars" and to state that is my position on the subject by you is your ugliness revealed yet again. An outright fabrication!

rumitoid

You have zero scruples, ginny.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

You came into a conversation and inserted your comment. If you go back to the original comment, the reference was Christian Scholars. I replied that you need not be a Christian to be a scholar and gave the point that I know Gnostics that are scholars. You came in with saying that Gnostic writings are younger than Saul's writings. So, I agreed somewhat that yes there are writing from during the time of Christians which predated the followers of Jesus up and through 300 years after the death of Jesus which indeed those writing would be later than those of Saul (60 to 150 AD). I then commented that one does not need to be a Christian to be a scholar.

Try every once in a while to follow the thread. It would go a long way in making appropriate comments and it would eliminate many of you h**eful name calling episodes.

WhatIt'sWorth Loc: Methane Sea, Jupiter

I would say that one could be a Christian, a Gnostic, AND a Scholar -- all rolled into one.

Elaine Pagels comes to mind. I think she is all three.

But one could be a scholar without being either Christian OR Gnostic; certainly.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

My point, many people on OPP who are believers, and certainly I see nothing wrong with believing in Jesus or even those that are Pauline Christians, they tend to feel that they are the only ones that can comprehend the NT. I maintain that anyone with reasonable intelligence, perseverance, and reasonable access to study material can not only understand but become experts and scholars. I personally know quite a few believers that know little or nothing about the history, culture, or politics during the time of Jesus. They go on faith alone and what they have been told. By no means would I say that they are scholars, but they would. And sincerely, I see many on OPP that do pretend to be Christians but do their best to discredit and pull believers away. They are close to being scholars, they can hold their own in discussions, but I sincerely doubt their faith. And while you are trying to figure out where I think I fit, I am neither a scholar or a teacher.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

WhatIt'sWorth Loc: Methane Sea, Jupiter

So hilarious, ginnyt, did I find your sentence:

"By no means would I say that they are scholars, but they would."

...that I am actually USING THE QUOTE BUTTON!!

(I am not inflexible, and have in fact had fruitful discussion on PM's since this thread started.)

But I am trying to put together a thread on another board -- a huge Christian Board -- where I frequent the wildest sub-board, called 'Unorthodox Doctrine Discussion'.

Now I feel I should start a double thread - here and there - and glean input from both places.

At the other place, the sub-board is limited to those who call themselves Christian, whether orthodox or unorthodox, and it is a rule that you cain't say to a member of a dubious group "You aint a Christian"

though many true heretics abound.

No, I was not wondering if you considered yourself a scholar or what-not -- never give it much thought -- but I too am neither scholar nor teacher.

I WAS a Tenor in the choir, but too many duties as caretaker of my 95-yr old Dad

(a disabled WW2 vet who spent the whole war in Alaska as a weather sergeant and at one period his CO was Jimmy Stewart, the Actor, who was a Colonel or Light Col in Army Air Corps, before there was a separate Air Force -- I myself am Air Force, 7 years active, 4 more in Reserves)

too many duties keep me around the house; anyway I don't get around much anymore, couldn't get away for rehearsals and services and cantatas in the afternoons, but it was fun while it lasted

Many years ago - they wanted me and Pavarotti and Domingas and Carreras to do this project they wuz gonna call 'THE FOUR TENORS'.

I had a prior engagement the night they first got together, and them sunuvaguns went on without me -- called it THE THREE TENORS -- it was on TV - perhaps you saw it.

at the other board, there are perhaps two that I would say approach being "scholar" - one with a Seminary degree, one self-taught and EXTREMELY knowledgable of Greek, Hebrew, and Church history

and there are a plethora of those who are not scholars but think they are

but on a board where have I been for 2 years, it goes off me like water off a duck's back if people - even the Bible Giants say - "you're callin Jesus a liar if you say the Bible has contradictions"

I just say "Nah, I aint"

'Are too!'

"Ain't!"

and so on

By rule, no actual Jews are on that sub-forum - but there are many "Messianic Jews" -people raised Jews but believe Jesus is Messiah.

Boy, do they H**E PAUL'S GUTS!

But I will eventually cook up this "double thread" both places -- here where ANYONE, Christian or not, who has a good knowledge of New Testament (such as I perceive you do) could participate

It will deal with "Christian Freedom" vs

"walking on eggshells for the sake of 'weaker brethren' "

and will involve Paul opposing Peter to his face about RUNNING AWAY from eating with Gentiles when "certain of James arrived"

Well, I don't necessarily swallow all of Pagel's conclusions, but she is a Christian and a Scholar -- she just "went Gnostic" cuz of being on committee first to review Nag Hammadi stuff

she studied the stuff so hard she bought into it, it looks like to me

the best username I ever had on Christian boards was "DancesWithGnostics"

on the Christian Forums board I am just Anto9us - Singer of Songs

"Antoninus" was a character played by Tony Curtis in the 1959 movie "Spartacus" starring Kirk Douglas

Peace - Shalom - Olive branches to all...

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

First, thank you for the consideration of using the quote reply button. It is appreciated.

I whish you well on your other topic and forum.

You are in direct communication with a very good friend of mine. Glen is not only exceptionally well versed, but he does not look down his nose at non Christians. He and I have shared many opinions, and he earned my respect. In fact, if you go through my comments, I think there is one thing that will ring true. I respect all people and their right to believe. In particular, I have deep respect for true Christians.

I will not share with you my thoughts nor biblical reasons, let me just say that Saul was neither Jew or an Apostle of Christ. Indeed, he set out to and accomplished the mission of starting his own independent religion. Independent of, but incorporating portions of all religions in the region to include Pagan cultures and practices.

A few weeks back, I was in discussion with a few people regarding religion and one individual insisted on calling me a teacher. When I corrected that person, it angered them and finally they painted me with horns and gave me the title of False Teacher. I am now quite careful not to give the impression that I am either a teacher or scholar of the Bible.

My appreciation to you and your father for your service to this Nation. I too am a veteran, my husband was a vet, and one biological son and 11 of my adopted sons, 3 of my daughters (all adopted, I only had two biological children and both were boys) are also veterans. The military is necessary, our freedom weights heavily on their collective shoulders. Anyway, my husband was avionics, I started in personnel went to computers and finally to 1N3 before I hung up my uniform.

Speaking of the Tenors, I do know of them in fact had the honor of meeting Luciano Pavarotti and Andre Bacilli when they were at the Kennedy Center. Remarkable voices. Sad that Luciano is not with us now. I also heard that Plácido Domingo is now ill. When he passes, it will be a great loss to the music world.

Well, again, I wish you well on your adventure and new thread. Perhaps you will share the link so I can read the information shared by you and others.

gustokitty

I agree, with the original post.(havn't read all replies yet)
I think there is too much forced on us to believe certain things about the bible, without just reading and thinking for ourselves. Yes, I certainly need help understanding much of it, which is why we look to leaders who understand the age and language it was written better than I. But...why would one need to believe there could not possibly be any human error in writing, in t***slations, etc. I don't think we are meant to put aside our reasoning and analysis sk**ls, or our plain common sense, as is often are expected. As a matter of fact, I also now am interested in learning some of the other ancient beliefs and what they are based on. not to believe in heresy. but to get a broader look at what's been carved on caves and such. using the bible as my guide also. anyway. thk for the interesting topic.

WhatIt'sWorth Loc: Methane Sea, Jupiter

Well, of course I will share the link(s)

http://www.christianforums.com/t7848409/#post66526352

is my thread on the Christian Forums Board

(I truly don't know if non-members can freely browse it)

and

http://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-24988-1.html#606759

is my parallel thread on this here OPP

rumitoid

I never said my belief is based on life experience: belief makes that impossible.