A look at prophecy
Oct 12, 2014 05:14:55 #
Yeshua said:
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Oct 12, 2014 09:01:29 #
Ranger7374 wrote:
Note: i wrote this in defense of Mary and the Chur... (show quote)
As for how long Adam was in garden. There really is no telling. Though one Sage suggested Adam was around 75 when he was kicked out. This conclusion was reached by looking at the age of Kayin when his first kid was born. There is no further explanation on this. Needless to say this has been rejected by my self and many others.
I will get back this whole post later, I just wanted to let you know, I use the KJ as it is the one most people seem to have. When I study I use both the Chumash, and the Complete Jewish Bible.
Oct 12, 2014 18:08:34 #
Rainrider wrote:
As for how long Adam was in garden. There really ... (show quote)
So the time they spent in the garden is unknown that is interesting. When I pray I use the Catholic Bible, when I communicate the Word, King James, when I study its all of them I can get my hands on. lol. Reason for this, is a basic scientific one. Purely scientific, that is, like when gathering information say like in a statistical analysis, if I have all the information, obviously some information is going to overlap, So you through out what is in common and see what is left, and that gives one story, and then you keep what is common and get rid of what is different. And in a painstaking way, the real t***h or the real meaning comes out.
This works with a lot of literary and philosophical books outside the bible, so in my search to unify the faiths, I attempted this, long ago and man, it created more of a mystery. So, I just stick to what I know. Which is the King James Version(or NKJV) and the Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition or any bible with the Imprimtu, (approval stamp of the Church)
Oct 17, 2014 11:22:39 #
[quote=Ranger7374]Let me begin with saying your Navy Seal Father taught you well, but through this fire we both started lets see if we have wisdom......
And know the T***h comes from God-The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That these three in one will speak on these pages to show both your points and mine. And in the end, God will speak to both of us, and tell us, "Let it go"
However in your p***eful attack on this ancient Christian Religion, you neglect a good number of things:
For one who was an RCC you did not learn the faith too well. Where you taught by the faithful or unfaithful? That is to be seen here.
To answer question number 1, the answer has been, is and will always be, no. It is not alright, as you put it in your question, to bow down before idols.
Does the bible identify what an idol is or let alone describe an idol, and what "bowing down to an idol is?". Is this not the languge that is used? Do we still bow down to things in the modern day? I really don't think so, unless we are bowing down to recieve God's blessing, but no I don't think Americans bow down to no one. So first we must describe what "bowing down to an idol" means.
Statues of Mary, the Saints, the Prophets, the Heroes of Judea, to include Moses, Samson and Samuel for example, remind us of the people depicted in art. Is a reminder an idol? Hold that thought.
What about this? Exodus 25:10-22
And they shall make an ark of acacia wood; two and a half cubits shall be its length, a cubit and a half its width, and a cubit and a half its height. And you shall overlay it with pure gold, inside and out you shall overlay it, and shall make on it a molding of gold all around. You shall cast four rings of gold for it, and put them in its four corners; two rings shall be on one side, and two rings on the other side. And you shall make poles of acacia wood, and overlay them with gold. You shall put the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark, that the ark may be carried by them. The poles shall be in the rings of the ark; they shall not be taken from it. And you shall put into the ark the Testimony which I will give you."
You shall make a mercy seat of pure gold; two and a half cubits shall be its length and a cubit and a half its width. And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work you shall make them at the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub at one end, and the other cherub at the other end; you shall make the cherubim at the two ends of it of one piece with the mercy seat. And the cherubim shall stretch out their wings above, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and they shall face one another; the faces of the cherubim shall be toward the mercy seat. You shall put the mercy seat on top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the Testimony that I will give you. And there I will meet with you, and I will speak with you from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are on the ark of the Testimony, about everything which I will give you in commandment to the children of Israel."
And again at King Solomon's Temple:
1 King 6:23-30
Inside the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olive wood, each ten cubits high. One wing of the cherub was five cubits, and the other wing of the cherub five cubits: ten cubits from the tip of one wing to the tip of the other. And the other cherub was ten cubits; both cherubim were of the same size and shape. The height of one cherub was ten cubits, and so was the other cherub. Then he set the cherubim inside the inner room; and they stretched out the wings of the cherubim so that the wing of the one touched one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall. And their wings touched each other in the middle of the room. Also he overlaid the cherubim with gold.
Then he carved all the walls of the temple all around, both the inner and outer sanctuaries, with carved figures of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers. And the floor of the temple he overlaid with gold, both the inner and outer sanctuaries."
For the entrance of the inner sanctuary he made doors of olive wood; the lintel and doorposts were one-fifth of the wall. The two doors were of olive wood; and he carved on them figures of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers, and overlaid them with gold; and he spread gold on the cherubim and on the palm trees. So for the door of the sanctuary he also made doorposts of olive wood, one-fourth of the wall. And the two doors were of cypress wood; two panels comprised one folding door, and two panels comprised the other folding door. Then he carved cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers on them, and overlaid them with gold applied evenly on the carved work.
And look at this:
"Then he set up the pillars by the vestibule of the temple; he set up the pillar on the right and called its name Jachin, and he set up the pillar on the left and called its name Boaz. The tops of the pillars were in the shape of lilies. So the work of the pillars was finished."
1 Kings 7:21-22
Now Solomon assembled the elders of Israel and all the heads of the tribes, the chief fathers of the children of Israel, to King Solomon in Jerusalem, that they might bring up the ark of the covenant of the Lord from the City of David, which is Zion. Therefore all the men of Israel assembled with King Solomon at the feast in the month of Ethanim, which is the seventh month. So all the elders of Israel came, and the priests took up the ark. Then they brought up the ark of the Lord, the tabernacle of meeting, and all the holy furnishings that were in the tabernacle. The priests and the Levites brought them up. Also King Solomon, and all the congregation of Israel who were assembled with him, were with him before the ark, sacrificing sheep and oxen that could not be counted or numbered for multitude. Then the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the Lord to its place, into the inner sanctuary of the temple, to the Most Holy Place, under the wings of the cherubim. For the cherubim spread their two wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubim overshadowed the ark and its poles. The poles extended so that the ends of the poles could be seen from the holy place, in front of the inner sanctuary; but they could not be seen from outside. And they are there to this day. Nothing was in the ark except the two tablets of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, when the Lord made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.
And it came to pass, when the priests came out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the Lord, so that the priests could not continue ministering because of the cloud; for the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord.
Then Solomon spoke:
The Lord said He would dwell in the dark cloud.
I have surely built You an exalted house,
And a place for You to dwell in forever.
1 Kings 8:1-13
Could that dark cloud, the column of smoke by day and the column of fire be night also be considered an idol for that is not God as Elijah pointed out. No. None of what I have mentioned, to the statues of the Angels or Seraphim or Cheribum nor the stautues of the Saints, and Angels, and the Crusifix, and the Statues of Mary, none of these are idols. For just as a House has decorations, so does the house of God. And Every Church is modeled after King Solomon's Temple.
Now this takes care of the first part of this question. The physical Idols now lets look upon Prayers to Mary, John the Baptist, and all the saints and angels. This is the second part of my rebuttle.
Let me corrected you on something..... When you pray to someone like God, do you ask God to pray for you? And if God would pray for you, who would he pray to? Look at the Salviga Regina or Hail Holy Queen again please:
[blue]Hail Holy Queen Mother of Mercy
Our Life our Sweetness and our Hope.
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve
to thee do we send up our sighs mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn then most gracious advocate thine eyes of mercy towards us,
and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
O Clement, O Loving, O sweet Virgin Mary
[b][u]Pray for us O holy Mother of God[/u[/b]
That we maybe made worthy of the Promises of Christ
(you did not include the rest of the prayer so you made this accusation out of context....interesting)
Almighty and everlasting God, by the cooperation of the Holy Spirit you prepared the body and soul of Mary, glorious Virgin and Mother to become the worthy habitation of your Son; grant that by her gracious intercession, in whose commemoration we rejoice, we may be delivered from present evils and from everlasting death. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen, May the divine assistance remain with us always. Amen.
Most interesting condemn one part of the prayer out of context with the rest of the prayer, ohhh can I do that with the bible too? No. Nor could you do that with the prayer. If you are going to accuse, make it full and complete.
As far as this particular prayer is concerned remember that Jesus gave us a prayer model, which we know as the Our Father. This is the model prayer, from this prayer all other prayers are made from.
In time it would be realized that David and Solomon both wrote prayers of their own in Psalms and there are some other prayers too. But the Our Father is the model prayer and the one Christ gave to us.
Now as far as the devotion to Mary does not Exodus, 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.", I did not read an expiration date on this command did you? Therefore after death, is it still right to follow this command? Whether it be the death of your parent or the death of you, where's the expiration date?
Jesus Christ author of these commandments, yes? He was with Moses when God gave them to Moses, yes? If Jesus is God, and does not break the commandments, then how should Jesus follow this commandment?
For it is here, that everyone has their problem with Mary. Which if looking at the commandment if you have a problem with Mary, you should have a problem with the Father too, for by honoring the wife you honor the husband. This is interesteing in the fact that two commandments are followed by honoring Mary.
Yet you say it is an a*********n. By Honoring Mary you help Christ in Honoring His Mother, plus by honoring his mother you honor the Father, therefore you uphold the first commandment by worshiping God.
By dishonoring Mary, you inturn break not only the "Honor your father and mother," but you also do not worship God simply put for a more detailed explanaition, you show that Mary is insignificat to Christ, thus offending Christ, thus hating God which is in violation of the first commandment.
Also by dishonoring Mary, you in turn are bearing false witness against thy neighbor, Ex 20:16. And that is what you are doing to me with these questions and the t***h will set me free. (Oh come on, it was funny, even a little:))
Same is true with the whole family of Christ including his friends. By dishonoring them you dishonor Christ. Did Christ not say, When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.
Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You? And the King will answer and say to them, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.
Then they also will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You? Then He will answer them, saying, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. 25: 31-46 when use in conjunction with this verse, Matt 11:11 Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." and John 13:16 "Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him."
Therefore if Christ got down as a servant, and the Apostles did like wise, why should we not do like wise? But there is more, for would it not be wise to praise those who have fought the good fight and won the great race? So to honor the saints and the dead with prayers is a justifiable act of gratitude, right? What could it hurt? For praying for the dead could only bring blessings of God among men, if it works, and if it doesn't, since it comes from the love of the Holy Spirit, God will see how much you loved your loved one, and will keep him/her close to his heart for you. Either way its a win/win situation for both the dead and the living so I don't see a problem.
Now I do however see a problem when Men take it too far. Which many in the RCC have, that you have described. To bow at every statue is an act of obedience and dicipline. Which we all know within the church is very, very, important. However, I can empathize with you in asking why. And the obedience and dicipline to God is the reason. However, each and every person must show for themselves, not for others, this dicipline. That is where the sin lies.
You were trained by a Navy Seal, yes. Did you ever hear the seal say "make it habit". For to borrow from Bruce Lee, "I can teach you all kinds of different techniques, but a kick will still be a kick and a punch will still be a punch." that statement sounds an aweful like Ecclesiastes Chapter 3:1-8. For in Bruce's statement, the kick has a purpose and a punch has a purpose, and through training and dicipline, we come to find that it becomes a habit and thus part of the human person.
This same philosophy, which has its roots in the book of Ecclesiastes, is the same push for dicipline of prayer. This is not for everyone, just like the way they taught reading and writing in the old days. For did the conventional way of reading and writing in the old days help the dyslecia person? No. Therefore this form of dicipline is not for everyone.
Does that mean a dyslectic person cannot be a member of RCC? No. For all has their place and appointed time with in the Church, or maybe the services are needed out side the Church only God knows this.
Therefore I believe I have concluded this question. In conclusion, the RCC does not practice Idol worship, it is a misconception of the enemies of the Church. What the Church does do is use the graven images the same way that our Jewish brothers and sisters did in the Temple and around the Ark of the Covenant. In this manner they are used. For if our statues and decorations are considered idols and idol worship, then this "worship" comes from our Jewish counter parts. And that is simply riduculas.
The dedication to Mary as our mother, and prayers to her, are in keeping with the Fourth commandment, "Honor thy Father and Mother" therefore honoring the First commandment in the worship of God. Like wise under the same commandment when concering the Saints, prophets, and heroes of the Jewish faith to include the patricahs, this too is honoring them therefore honoring God.
Many of these practices many people neglect to recognize the simplicity in thinking and neglect the entire message. It is not a negative one or a false one either. In my next post I will handle the rebuttale to question
2 When did the TRUE Sabbath change from the 7th day of the week to the 1st? and I will deal with question number 8 When did Passover change it's date to be observed?[/quote]
Answering this post may well seem that I am going backwards. I am simply going back to answer some things that I left unanswered. In doing so I am sure you see the differences in the RCC and what you listed here.
You asked,
Does the bible identify what an idol is or let alone describe an idol, and what "bowing down to an idol is?". Is this not the languge that is used? Do we still bow down to things in the modern day? I really don't think so, unless we are bowing down to recieve God's blessing, but no I don't think Americans bow down to no one. So first we must describe what "bowing down to an idol" means.
My answer is YES. The Bible has always given us the meaning of it's Words. If one looks they can find them, it is just seeking the t***h, then letting the Spirit guide us to the answer. So here is the answer to this one.
Eph 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
This passage makes it clear that if one bends a knee they are bowing. The next makes it even clearer.
Mat 27:29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
Gen 41:43 And he made him to ride in the second char**t which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee: and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt.
So you see when anyone bends a knee, then prays to any image of anything on earth or in heaven, they are guilty. Though it is true that the RCC does not drop to their knees, they do bend at lest one knee. This done when standing and faceing an image of any of the saints, or Marry. Also as you so willing placed the prayers here, I feel free to remind you, the prayers given to what ever image is given to that image. One must always keep in mind that the dead know nothing, if they know nothing, then how they pray?
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
You said,
Statues of Mary, the Saints, the Prophets, the Heroes of Judea, to include Moses, Samson and Samuel for example, remind us of the people depicted in art. Is a reminder an idol? Hold that thought.
My reply,
If you knew anything of the Jewish People, their ways, customs, and worship. Then this would never have been said. You see What is listed here, and all of what follows is nothing at all like the worship of saints, or Marry. You will never find anyone bowing, or praying to any of is listed. In fact when you speak of the Arc, you place Marry and all the other saints on the same level of that which was ordered by HaShem.
The ark, temple, alter, column of fire, or Solomon's temple were never an object of worship. True the Temple was used in worship. However it was used in the manner ordered by HaShem. So how can even think to try to place any of what HaShem ordered in the same context of praying to ideals? When one is given direction to do a thing, they do it. However when one is told not to do a thing, they should not.
Let me corrected you on something..... When you pray to someone like God, do you ask God to pray for you? And if God would pray for you, who would he pray to? Look at the Salviga Regina or Hail Holy Queen again please:
I don't pray to anyone like HaShem, I pray to HaShem. As He is Who He Is, He has no need to pray for me. He simply hears my words, and acts on them in a way that fits his will in my life. Yes I do speak to HaShem, after all when one looks at how Yeshua showed us to pray, He addressed HaShem directly.
You said,
(you did not include the rest of the prayer so you made this accusation out of context....interesting)
My reply,
You find this interesting that I quoted it from your post? you know the one you posted on Oct 8, 14 02:30:31 in reply to Darla? Why would that be wrong in anyway? Yet here you wish make it seem that I misquoted what you yourself had posted. Here let me copy and it past for you once more.
or same question applies here, "
Hail Mary full of Grace
The Lord is with thee
Blessed are you among women
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.
Holy Mary Mother of God
Pray for us sinners
Now and at the Hour of our Death, Amen."
Word for word that is what you posted.
What I find of interst here, is that once more you have done your best to twist things so it looks as though others are just making things up as they go along. That how ever is a lie by fabrication.
Let me explain that for you so that it is made real clear.
When a person uses your own words to make a point, then you take that and add a little or finish a thought out after the fact, you have by design fabricated the lie you wish to place on the other person.
That ( with all do respect ) is misleading, and an attempt to discredit another. This kind of action is both unexplainable, and dishonest. It does lead others to follow a lie to it's end. in this case however, you have done great harm to your own testimony. You see, when one openly claims to follow HaShem, they must walk with care. It is by your own action, and words, that others will see just how we are to walk with Yeshua, and show our love to and of HaShem. Can this be done by braking this commandment?
Exo 20:16 ¶ Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Yes that is what you have done. When you tried to place at my feet leaving a part of that prayer out. When in fact it was you that must have left it out. So from this point on, don't post only a part of a thing. To do you open the door to this. You also leave no one to blame, but your self. You also loss both respect, and credibility.
And know the T***h comes from God-The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That these three in one will speak on these pages to show both your points and mine. And in the end, God will speak to both of us, and tell us, "Let it go"
However in your p***eful attack on this ancient Christian Religion, you neglect a good number of things:
For one who was an RCC you did not learn the faith too well. Where you taught by the faithful or unfaithful? That is to be seen here.
To answer question number 1, the answer has been, is and will always be, no. It is not alright, as you put it in your question, to bow down before idols.
Does the bible identify what an idol is or let alone describe an idol, and what "bowing down to an idol is?". Is this not the languge that is used? Do we still bow down to things in the modern day? I really don't think so, unless we are bowing down to recieve God's blessing, but no I don't think Americans bow down to no one. So first we must describe what "bowing down to an idol" means.
Statues of Mary, the Saints, the Prophets, the Heroes of Judea, to include Moses, Samson and Samuel for example, remind us of the people depicted in art. Is a reminder an idol? Hold that thought.
What about this? Exodus 25:10-22
And they shall make an ark of acacia wood; two and a half cubits shall be its length, a cubit and a half its width, and a cubit and a half its height. And you shall overlay it with pure gold, inside and out you shall overlay it, and shall make on it a molding of gold all around. You shall cast four rings of gold for it, and put them in its four corners; two rings shall be on one side, and two rings on the other side. And you shall make poles of acacia wood, and overlay them with gold. You shall put the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark, that the ark may be carried by them. The poles shall be in the rings of the ark; they shall not be taken from it. And you shall put into the ark the Testimony which I will give you."
You shall make a mercy seat of pure gold; two and a half cubits shall be its length and a cubit and a half its width. And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work you shall make them at the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub at one end, and the other cherub at the other end; you shall make the cherubim at the two ends of it of one piece with the mercy seat. And the cherubim shall stretch out their wings above, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and they shall face one another; the faces of the cherubim shall be toward the mercy seat. You shall put the mercy seat on top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the Testimony that I will give you. And there I will meet with you, and I will speak with you from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are on the ark of the Testimony, about everything which I will give you in commandment to the children of Israel."
And again at King Solomon's Temple:
1 King 6:23-30
Inside the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olive wood, each ten cubits high. One wing of the cherub was five cubits, and the other wing of the cherub five cubits: ten cubits from the tip of one wing to the tip of the other. And the other cherub was ten cubits; both cherubim were of the same size and shape. The height of one cherub was ten cubits, and so was the other cherub. Then he set the cherubim inside the inner room; and they stretched out the wings of the cherubim so that the wing of the one touched one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall. And their wings touched each other in the middle of the room. Also he overlaid the cherubim with gold.
Then he carved all the walls of the temple all around, both the inner and outer sanctuaries, with carved figures of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers. And the floor of the temple he overlaid with gold, both the inner and outer sanctuaries."
For the entrance of the inner sanctuary he made doors of olive wood; the lintel and doorposts were one-fifth of the wall. The two doors were of olive wood; and he carved on them figures of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers, and overlaid them with gold; and he spread gold on the cherubim and on the palm trees. So for the door of the sanctuary he also made doorposts of olive wood, one-fourth of the wall. And the two doors were of cypress wood; two panels comprised one folding door, and two panels comprised the other folding door. Then he carved cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers on them, and overlaid them with gold applied evenly on the carved work.
And look at this:
"Then he set up the pillars by the vestibule of the temple; he set up the pillar on the right and called its name Jachin, and he set up the pillar on the left and called its name Boaz. The tops of the pillars were in the shape of lilies. So the work of the pillars was finished."
1 Kings 7:21-22
Now Solomon assembled the elders of Israel and all the heads of the tribes, the chief fathers of the children of Israel, to King Solomon in Jerusalem, that they might bring up the ark of the covenant of the Lord from the City of David, which is Zion. Therefore all the men of Israel assembled with King Solomon at the feast in the month of Ethanim, which is the seventh month. So all the elders of Israel came, and the priests took up the ark. Then they brought up the ark of the Lord, the tabernacle of meeting, and all the holy furnishings that were in the tabernacle. The priests and the Levites brought them up. Also King Solomon, and all the congregation of Israel who were assembled with him, were with him before the ark, sacrificing sheep and oxen that could not be counted or numbered for multitude. Then the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the Lord to its place, into the inner sanctuary of the temple, to the Most Holy Place, under the wings of the cherubim. For the cherubim spread their two wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubim overshadowed the ark and its poles. The poles extended so that the ends of the poles could be seen from the holy place, in front of the inner sanctuary; but they could not be seen from outside. And they are there to this day. Nothing was in the ark except the two tablets of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, when the Lord made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.
And it came to pass, when the priests came out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the Lord, so that the priests could not continue ministering because of the cloud; for the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord.
Then Solomon spoke:
The Lord said He would dwell in the dark cloud.
I have surely built You an exalted house,
And a place for You to dwell in forever.
1 Kings 8:1-13
Could that dark cloud, the column of smoke by day and the column of fire be night also be considered an idol for that is not God as Elijah pointed out. No. None of what I have mentioned, to the statues of the Angels or Seraphim or Cheribum nor the stautues of the Saints, and Angels, and the Crusifix, and the Statues of Mary, none of these are idols. For just as a House has decorations, so does the house of God. And Every Church is modeled after King Solomon's Temple.
Now this takes care of the first part of this question. The physical Idols now lets look upon Prayers to Mary, John the Baptist, and all the saints and angels. This is the second part of my rebuttle.
Let me corrected you on something..... When you pray to someone like God, do you ask God to pray for you? And if God would pray for you, who would he pray to? Look at the Salviga Regina or Hail Holy Queen again please:
[blue]Hail Holy Queen Mother of Mercy
Our Life our Sweetness and our Hope.
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve
to thee do we send up our sighs mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn then most gracious advocate thine eyes of mercy towards us,
and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
O Clement, O Loving, O sweet Virgin Mary
[b][u]Pray for us O holy Mother of God[/u[/b]
That we maybe made worthy of the Promises of Christ
(you did not include the rest of the prayer so you made this accusation out of context....interesting)
Almighty and everlasting God, by the cooperation of the Holy Spirit you prepared the body and soul of Mary, glorious Virgin and Mother to become the worthy habitation of your Son; grant that by her gracious intercession, in whose commemoration we rejoice, we may be delivered from present evils and from everlasting death. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen, May the divine assistance remain with us always. Amen.
Most interesting condemn one part of the prayer out of context with the rest of the prayer, ohhh can I do that with the bible too? No. Nor could you do that with the prayer. If you are going to accuse, make it full and complete.
As far as this particular prayer is concerned remember that Jesus gave us a prayer model, which we know as the Our Father. This is the model prayer, from this prayer all other prayers are made from.
In time it would be realized that David and Solomon both wrote prayers of their own in Psalms and there are some other prayers too. But the Our Father is the model prayer and the one Christ gave to us.
Now as far as the devotion to Mary does not Exodus, 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.", I did not read an expiration date on this command did you? Therefore after death, is it still right to follow this command? Whether it be the death of your parent or the death of you, where's the expiration date?
Jesus Christ author of these commandments, yes? He was with Moses when God gave them to Moses, yes? If Jesus is God, and does not break the commandments, then how should Jesus follow this commandment?
For it is here, that everyone has their problem with Mary. Which if looking at the commandment if you have a problem with Mary, you should have a problem with the Father too, for by honoring the wife you honor the husband. This is interesteing in the fact that two commandments are followed by honoring Mary.
Yet you say it is an a*********n. By Honoring Mary you help Christ in Honoring His Mother, plus by honoring his mother you honor the Father, therefore you uphold the first commandment by worshiping God.
By dishonoring Mary, you inturn break not only the "Honor your father and mother," but you also do not worship God simply put for a more detailed explanaition, you show that Mary is insignificat to Christ, thus offending Christ, thus hating God which is in violation of the first commandment.
Also by dishonoring Mary, you in turn are bearing false witness against thy neighbor, Ex 20:16. And that is what you are doing to me with these questions and the t***h will set me free. (Oh come on, it was funny, even a little:))
Same is true with the whole family of Christ including his friends. By dishonoring them you dishonor Christ. Did Christ not say, When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.
Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You? And the King will answer and say to them, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.
Then they also will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You? Then He will answer them, saying, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. 25: 31-46 when use in conjunction with this verse, Matt 11:11 Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." and John 13:16 "Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him."
Therefore if Christ got down as a servant, and the Apostles did like wise, why should we not do like wise? But there is more, for would it not be wise to praise those who have fought the good fight and won the great race? So to honor the saints and the dead with prayers is a justifiable act of gratitude, right? What could it hurt? For praying for the dead could only bring blessings of God among men, if it works, and if it doesn't, since it comes from the love of the Holy Spirit, God will see how much you loved your loved one, and will keep him/her close to his heart for you. Either way its a win/win situation for both the dead and the living so I don't see a problem.
Now I do however see a problem when Men take it too far. Which many in the RCC have, that you have described. To bow at every statue is an act of obedience and dicipline. Which we all know within the church is very, very, important. However, I can empathize with you in asking why. And the obedience and dicipline to God is the reason. However, each and every person must show for themselves, not for others, this dicipline. That is where the sin lies.
You were trained by a Navy Seal, yes. Did you ever hear the seal say "make it habit". For to borrow from Bruce Lee, "I can teach you all kinds of different techniques, but a kick will still be a kick and a punch will still be a punch." that statement sounds an aweful like Ecclesiastes Chapter 3:1-8. For in Bruce's statement, the kick has a purpose and a punch has a purpose, and through training and dicipline, we come to find that it becomes a habit and thus part of the human person.
This same philosophy, which has its roots in the book of Ecclesiastes, is the same push for dicipline of prayer. This is not for everyone, just like the way they taught reading and writing in the old days. For did the conventional way of reading and writing in the old days help the dyslecia person? No. Therefore this form of dicipline is not for everyone.
Does that mean a dyslectic person cannot be a member of RCC? No. For all has their place and appointed time with in the Church, or maybe the services are needed out side the Church only God knows this.
Therefore I believe I have concluded this question. In conclusion, the RCC does not practice Idol worship, it is a misconception of the enemies of the Church. What the Church does do is use the graven images the same way that our Jewish brothers and sisters did in the Temple and around the Ark of the Covenant. In this manner they are used. For if our statues and decorations are considered idols and idol worship, then this "worship" comes from our Jewish counter parts. And that is simply riduculas.
The dedication to Mary as our mother, and prayers to her, are in keeping with the Fourth commandment, "Honor thy Father and Mother" therefore honoring the First commandment in the worship of God. Like wise under the same commandment when concering the Saints, prophets, and heroes of the Jewish faith to include the patricahs, this too is honoring them therefore honoring God.
Many of these practices many people neglect to recognize the simplicity in thinking and neglect the entire message. It is not a negative one or a false one either. In my next post I will handle the rebuttale to question
2 When did the TRUE Sabbath change from the 7th day of the week to the 1st? and I will deal with question number 8 When did Passover change it's date to be observed?[/quote]
Answering this post may well seem that I am going backwards. I am simply going back to answer some things that I left unanswered. In doing so I am sure you see the differences in the RCC and what you listed here.
You asked,
Does the bible identify what an idol is or let alone describe an idol, and what "bowing down to an idol is?". Is this not the languge that is used? Do we still bow down to things in the modern day? I really don't think so, unless we are bowing down to recieve God's blessing, but no I don't think Americans bow down to no one. So first we must describe what "bowing down to an idol" means.
My answer is YES. The Bible has always given us the meaning of it's Words. If one looks they can find them, it is just seeking the t***h, then letting the Spirit guide us to the answer. So here is the answer to this one.
Eph 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
This passage makes it clear that if one bends a knee they are bowing. The next makes it even clearer.
Mat 27:29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
Gen 41:43 And he made him to ride in the second char**t which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee: and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt.
So you see when anyone bends a knee, then prays to any image of anything on earth or in heaven, they are guilty. Though it is true that the RCC does not drop to their knees, they do bend at lest one knee. This done when standing and faceing an image of any of the saints, or Marry. Also as you so willing placed the prayers here, I feel free to remind you, the prayers given to what ever image is given to that image. One must always keep in mind that the dead know nothing, if they know nothing, then how they pray?
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
You said,
Statues of Mary, the Saints, the Prophets, the Heroes of Judea, to include Moses, Samson and Samuel for example, remind us of the people depicted in art. Is a reminder an idol? Hold that thought.
My reply,
If you knew anything of the Jewish People, their ways, customs, and worship. Then this would never have been said. You see What is listed here, and all of what follows is nothing at all like the worship of saints, or Marry. You will never find anyone bowing, or praying to any of is listed. In fact when you speak of the Arc, you place Marry and all the other saints on the same level of that which was ordered by HaShem.
The ark, temple, alter, column of fire, or Solomon's temple were never an object of worship. True the Temple was used in worship. However it was used in the manner ordered by HaShem. So how can even think to try to place any of what HaShem ordered in the same context of praying to ideals? When one is given direction to do a thing, they do it. However when one is told not to do a thing, they should not.
Let me corrected you on something..... When you pray to someone like God, do you ask God to pray for you? And if God would pray for you, who would he pray to? Look at the Salviga Regina or Hail Holy Queen again please:
I don't pray to anyone like HaShem, I pray to HaShem. As He is Who He Is, He has no need to pray for me. He simply hears my words, and acts on them in a way that fits his will in my life. Yes I do speak to HaShem, after all when one looks at how Yeshua showed us to pray, He addressed HaShem directly.
You said,
(you did not include the rest of the prayer so you made this accusation out of context....interesting)
My reply,
You find this interesting that I quoted it from your post? you know the one you posted on Oct 8, 14 02:30:31 in reply to Darla? Why would that be wrong in anyway? Yet here you wish make it seem that I misquoted what you yourself had posted. Here let me copy and it past for you once more.
or same question applies here, "
Hail Mary full of Grace
The Lord is with thee
Blessed are you among women
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.
Holy Mary Mother of God
Pray for us sinners
Now and at the Hour of our Death, Amen."
Word for word that is what you posted.
What I find of interst here, is that once more you have done your best to twist things so it looks as though others are just making things up as they go along. That how ever is a lie by fabrication.
Let me explain that for you so that it is made real clear.
When a person uses your own words to make a point, then you take that and add a little or finish a thought out after the fact, you have by design fabricated the lie you wish to place on the other person.
That ( with all do respect ) is misleading, and an attempt to discredit another. This kind of action is both unexplainable, and dishonest. It does lead others to follow a lie to it's end. in this case however, you have done great harm to your own testimony. You see, when one openly claims to follow HaShem, they must walk with care. It is by your own action, and words, that others will see just how we are to walk with Yeshua, and show our love to and of HaShem. Can this be done by braking this commandment?
Exo 20:16 ¶ Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Yes that is what you have done. When you tried to place at my feet leaving a part of that prayer out. When in fact it was you that must have left it out. So from this point on, don't post only a part of a thing. To do you open the door to this. You also leave no one to blame, but your self. You also loss both respect, and credibility.
Oct 17, 2014 14:01:15 #
To finish my last post,
You said,
Now as far as the devotion to Mary does not Exodus, 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.", I did not read an expiration date on this command did you? Therefore after death, is it still right to follow this command? Whether it be the death of your parent or the death of you, where's the expiration date?
My reply,
You can honor a person with out having to pray to them. Do you not honor your mom? Do you pray to her? I know I honor my mom every day. I do so by walking in much of she pasted on to me. The rest of this simply is not worthy of any comment. As it does border on ........... Fill that in how ever you wish.
You said,
Also by dishonoring Mary, you in turn are bearing false witness against thy neighbor, Ex 20:16. And that is what you are doing to me with these questions and the t***h will set me free. (Oh come on, it was funny, even a little)
My reply,
I fail to see any hummer in twisting the Word for any reason at all!!!!!!!! That is by definition adding to, and also taking away from. It also shows a great disrespect for the Word, and HaShem.
As for the questions, they bear no witness at all. The answer would however. So to make a claim that by asking I am braking this commandment, shows simply that you have no clue at all what it means. That or once more you are making a vary sad attempt, to discredit me. Ether way, it tells me one of 2 things. One you can not answer them with out bring to light the witness you need to keep hidden, or 2 you can't answer them with out taking the T***H of HaShem's word out of context.
If you take the Word out of context, you know full well I will place it back into it's intended context. After all, the Torah is t***h, it does not lie, and shows us the only way to HaShem, and life ever after.A person can not win the respect of members of the Sanhedrin with out know the Torah.
You said,
Now I do however see a problem when Men take it too far. Which many in the RCC have, that you have described. To bow at every statue is an act of obedience and dicipline. Which we all know within the church is very, very, important. However, I can empathize with you in asking why. And the obedience and dicipline to God is the reason. However, each and every person must show for themselves, not for others, this dicipline. That is where the sin lies.
My reply,
So now you come forword and say you do bow to every statue? Odd when you once said you don't. Let me look for that post.
Oct 6, 14 09:00:01 in this post you said, and this copied from your own words.
No its you! Did you not read the Baltimore Catechism? that I provided? For one of the questions is about the idols, no we do not bow down to idols, the idol reminds us of God. It is a symbol like the Star of David is a symbol. Praying to saints is praying to the friends of God, and asking them for intercession. Same with Mary. Praying for the dead, allows those who have died under venial sin, helps them get into heaven? Do you people not have compassion? The only way to the Father is through Jesus Christ, we all know this, yet you continue to ignore what has already been posted. Through Mary, through her Son we get to the Father for it is only through Christ. Showing Love for God and Jesus is by keeping His Commandments and doing as was stated in the Baltimore Catechism performing the corporal works of mercy and other works as was related in the Sermon on the Mount. As far as when were the dates changed for the birth of Christ, and the death of Christ, is immaterial for the fact the deed was done.
So now I ask, what is it? Do you or do you not bow to idols?
I am going to leave this post as it stands. I do hope one day you wish to put my understanding to the test. Force me to back what I teach with the word. If you ever do, you will not find in my teaching that I ever say one thing, then in time retract it or contradict my self.
You said,
Now as far as the devotion to Mary does not Exodus, 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.", I did not read an expiration date on this command did you? Therefore after death, is it still right to follow this command? Whether it be the death of your parent or the death of you, where's the expiration date?
My reply,
You can honor a person with out having to pray to them. Do you not honor your mom? Do you pray to her? I know I honor my mom every day. I do so by walking in much of she pasted on to me. The rest of this simply is not worthy of any comment. As it does border on ........... Fill that in how ever you wish.
You said,
Also by dishonoring Mary, you in turn are bearing false witness against thy neighbor, Ex 20:16. And that is what you are doing to me with these questions and the t***h will set me free. (Oh come on, it was funny, even a little)
My reply,
I fail to see any hummer in twisting the Word for any reason at all!!!!!!!! That is by definition adding to, and also taking away from. It also shows a great disrespect for the Word, and HaShem.
As for the questions, they bear no witness at all. The answer would however. So to make a claim that by asking I am braking this commandment, shows simply that you have no clue at all what it means. That or once more you are making a vary sad attempt, to discredit me. Ether way, it tells me one of 2 things. One you can not answer them with out bring to light the witness you need to keep hidden, or 2 you can't answer them with out taking the T***H of HaShem's word out of context.
If you take the Word out of context, you know full well I will place it back into it's intended context. After all, the Torah is t***h, it does not lie, and shows us the only way to HaShem, and life ever after.A person can not win the respect of members of the Sanhedrin with out know the Torah.
You said,
Now I do however see a problem when Men take it too far. Which many in the RCC have, that you have described. To bow at every statue is an act of obedience and dicipline. Which we all know within the church is very, very, important. However, I can empathize with you in asking why. And the obedience and dicipline to God is the reason. However, each and every person must show for themselves, not for others, this dicipline. That is where the sin lies.
My reply,
So now you come forword and say you do bow to every statue? Odd when you once said you don't. Let me look for that post.
Oct 6, 14 09:00:01 in this post you said, and this copied from your own words.
No its you! Did you not read the Baltimore Catechism? that I provided? For one of the questions is about the idols, no we do not bow down to idols, the idol reminds us of God. It is a symbol like the Star of David is a symbol. Praying to saints is praying to the friends of God, and asking them for intercession. Same with Mary. Praying for the dead, allows those who have died under venial sin, helps them get into heaven? Do you people not have compassion? The only way to the Father is through Jesus Christ, we all know this, yet you continue to ignore what has already been posted. Through Mary, through her Son we get to the Father for it is only through Christ. Showing Love for God and Jesus is by keeping His Commandments and doing as was stated in the Baltimore Catechism performing the corporal works of mercy and other works as was related in the Sermon on the Mount. As far as when were the dates changed for the birth of Christ, and the death of Christ, is immaterial for the fact the deed was done.
So now I ask, what is it? Do you or do you not bow to idols?
I am going to leave this post as it stands. I do hope one day you wish to put my understanding to the test. Force me to back what I teach with the word. If you ever do, you will not find in my teaching that I ever say one thing, then in time retract it or contradict my self.
Oct 17, 2014 15:30:09 #
Ranger7374 wrote:
It is nice debating with you while you are level headed Rainryder, I like doing it this way rather than getting frustrated and slinging mud. I hope you are learning as much as I am too. I'm mainly learning how to communicate better, you all check me on that. Hey have a good morning, I'm going to get some rest. Debate with you later......God Bless and enjoy.
Sorry I can't find the post where you asked what the meaning of " BEFORE ME" was. This will just have to work.
The simple answer is, in front of. This can also mean in ones sight, or presents.
The way this is used in the Torah is not as straight foreword. Yet it holds all of the above meanings, with a little more depth. let me show you.
If we take just this part of the commandment,
Exo 20:3 ¶ Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Then one can say it holds the above meaning, and only that. However when one looks at the whole of this commandment, we find a fuller meaning and understanding.
so lets look at it part by part.
Exo 20:4 ¶ Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
In this verse we are now forced to look at the act of making an image. This is not a thing one can simply do in their sleep. It takes time and thought. This is time that one is steeling from HaShem, and thus places the making of said image before HaShem. The reasoning behind this is simple. So lets make it simple. If your wife wanted to go a movie, then you took that time to spend with a friend, you placed that friend before her. Even though she was there, that friend came first.
One can even do this with a TV show, a pet, or what ever one takes time from HaShem to do. Yes this does in fact also include reading a favorite book.
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that h**e me;
Here we find that HaShem is jealous. Kind of like your wife would be in the above scenario. She would be justified in that as well.
What one must look at to find if they are practicing this in any way is the whole of the Bible. They must look at how they pray, worship, and spend their free time. Is reading a good book wrong? Not at all. So long as that book does not interfere with prayer, worship, or helping others. To let anything get in the way of doing HaShems work is putting that before Him. At times, ( as is the case now) one may find that to do His work, they must it before sleep.
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that
Now when we read this passage, do we think that HaShem will place this curs on a child who's father is in violation of this commandment? It makes it clear that He will. However, as I said, one must look at the Whole of His Word to understand. You see to say that if ones mom or dad violated this Law means they have no hope is wrong.
Hos 4:9 And there shall be, like people, like priest: and I will punish them for their ways, and reward them their doings.
May-hap one day we can do a full study on the Torah. Who knows, in said study we may well find the answers to this whole debate. HOw ever until that time, I will still need to get back you on one other post of yours. Until then I need to get some house work done, then some sleep.
Oct 18, 2014 00:34:04 #
Rainrider wrote:
May-hap one day we can do a full study on the Torah. Who knows, in said study we may well find the answers to this whole debate. HOw ever until that time, I will still need to get back you on one other post of yours. Until then I need to get some house work done, then some sleep.
You have ended the argument here and we need not need to debate on this anymore, which brings me back to the same statement I had made before all of the attacks on my faith or the RCC.
A full study on the Torah. Since God's and Jesus's words are universal, and since the general meaning is the same, and the broader meaning is individualized, we must understand and come to the maturity that every one praises God and worships Him in their own way. Even though they do keep the commandments with in their culture you must also understand that for some outside that culture it can by design of the deceiver that this practice or that practice is sacrilegious. Is that not why Jews don't accept Jesus? And for the same reason why a Baptist would not accept a Roman Catholic? I have demonstrated ways of twisting the meanings around, and I have demonstrated the beliefs of those who agree and disagree with the Roman Catholic Faith, and you called it deception, the same deception that the attack was made on Christ's Church.
Note: in that last line I did not say the RCC for a purpose. The reason is quite simple, like Christ had twelve friends that all loved Him differently, is like we have many in the religious community that love Him differently. For this reason does that mean Christ will condemn one over another? For we as Christians, whether part of the RCC or not, are all Christians in the single body of Christ. I have already stated the chapter and Verse of Paul stating this. Therefore, if I as a Roman catholic condemn a man from the Ethiopian Church for their belief is wrong. Just like you condemning my church is wrong too.
Like I have stated before, the way I believe is right for me. The way you believe is right for you. However we would be true brothers in Christ if we do not condemn each other's beliefs. However there is a true stipulation----As long as the belief is acted upon in Love instead of h**e.
I have a question for you and follow this as an act of faith. Have you ever been in a country where you were fighting the enemy? Where you go through the hell of war? And when you are finally taken out of the battle field, and you first arrive in the safe zone before going home, and you run into another American, do you not feel relieved? Then you return home, and are honorably discharged, like I was, and you run into another veteran?, Or how about if you return to your home state, and come a cross an old friend or family member? Do you feel relived, like that you are around friends and family? This is how I feel when I left the Muslim lands and was in the company of other Christians. For those who believe in Christ are part of that family. Then, I returned home and came across others who worshiped the way I did. For this reason No Christian should perish, and all Christians, Roman Catholic or not, will by the great power of Jesus and God, Himself, well enter into paradise.
I gave you many reasons why Roman Catholics do what they do, and never once did I say this was the only way to believe. Wisdom tells me that each person must believe in the way they seek is right. However, I will point out that the RCC believes deeply in the commandments, however, rather than attacking the blasphemers, we have come into the contention of attacking one another, thus fulfilling what Christ said, "A house divided shall surely fall" I cannot continue on with this for this reason. For one, I am against degrading anyone's religious prefrence, especially if they are Christian. You claimed, with respect, that I was bearing false witness, yet I have not. You claimed I twisted the words to suit my purposes, yet I have not.
What I have done was shown you in an interesting way the failures of direct and strict interpretation. In the administration of James Madison, Jefferson and Adams had a problem with the Constitution. What the problem was was strict interpretation and broad interpretation. What we have be arguing here is strict interpretation of the scriptures, which would condemn everyone, or broad interpretation which would free everyone from condemnation. Wisdom tells me it is a balance between the two. This is the maturity that we must seek. And it must come with wisdom. You will be amazed that we both agree on the same object.
This object is Jesus Christ, however we both see Him two different ways. Now, I once again repeat myself, I seek not the destruction on Christ's churches, but rather the unification of His Churches.
Now, I will restate the t***h: "No matter what I say will not change your mind. No matter what you say will not change my mind. But in the fire we may gain wisdom." Now once again I ask have you gained wisdom from the discussion or do we need to continue to destroy the Church of Christ?
Oct 18, 2014 00:37:35 #
Quote:
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Josep... (show quote)
Let's take a look at the salutation, and I assure you it was simply thata salutation, a greeting. It would be considered rude to approach someone without an initial greeting of some sort. It was in no way meant to confer royalty or deity onto the person addressed. HaShem and His messengers were no exception.
In a nutshell, the angel said to Mary, Hey, Mary, this is your lucky day!
For example, let us look at the term found grace. How many people in the Bible found grace. with HaShem? Well, let's see. Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. Hmmm. Noah found grace with HaShem. Exo 33:12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight. Again, we find that Moses has found grace in HaShem's sight. Moses, himself reminds HaShem of that fact. Are we to consider Noah holy and worthy of our petitions for intercession? Well, no. Nowhere in the Bible does it say to revere Noah or to venerate Noah. Just as nowhere is it found specifically that Mary or the Apostles were to be venerated or revered as holy. Do we request intercession from Moses? Do we heap praises upon Moses before requesting intercession. No. Again we are told NOWHERE in the Bible to request intercession from anyone other than Yeshua, HaShem Himself in the flesh.
Let's look at the term blessed. Being blessed does not confer holiness onto a person. If that were the case, many, many people in the Bible would have to be considered holy, for many, many people in the Bible were blessed. Abraham, was blessed numerous times. Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. Gen 14:19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all. Continuing with Abraham, Gen 18:17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; Gen 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?. Hmm, now we find that nations are being blessed through Abraham. Does that place Abraham on the same level with Yeshua? No. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we are to venerate Abraham as holy or to pray to or through him for intercession.
And I have noted in a past quote that Yeshua, Himself went to great lengths to avoid any conveyance of holiness or anything that would lead others to believe that Mary or any of His earthly family should be venerated. Yes, Yeshua followed the commandments of HaShem. Yes, He honored His earthly mother and father...BY OBEDIENCE to them. Luke 2:48 When his parents saw him, they were shocked; and his mother said to him, "Son! Why have you done this to us? Your father and I have been terribly worried looking for you!" Luke 2:49 He said to them, "Why did you have to look for me? Didn't you know that I had to be concerning myself with my Father's affairs?" Luke 2:50 But they didn't understand what he meant. Luke 2:51 So he went with them to Natzeret and was obedient to them. But his mother stored up all these things in her heart.
Yeshua gave us a model for PRAYER. Let's look at how Yeshua says we are to pray. That tells us everything we need to know as to HOW we are to approach the throne of HaShem. Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Mat 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread. Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
This defies any suggestion that we are to ask others, dead or alive, saint, prophet, or apostle to intercede on our behalf. We already know that HaShem is a jealous God, He would not abide with us heaping praise on any other being, alive, dead, wood, stone or metal.
Oct 18, 2014 01:09:00 #
Rainrider wrote:
My reply, br If you knew anything of the Jewish Pe... (show quote)
You are not going deep enough into my words. For I questioned the law in this statement, the same law you accused the RCC against. Therefore according to you, the Jews are allowed to do it but not the Christians. No. I don't believe God holds double standards for people. That is completely a human emotion. You don't need to know Jewish Custom to know that accusation can be made and has been made before.
Could it not be interpreted when the people of the old testament bowed down before the Ark of the Covenant, that they were praying to an idol? Now you know I know better than that, however, this is the same argument used against the reminders of God in art or statues. Different people pray to God differently, it doesn't mean they bow down to Idols. This is a major misconception. But if one believes it is a violation of the commandments maybe it is not right for that person not to continue with the custom. Understand it in that context.
Rainrider wrote:
I don't pray to anyone like HaShem, I pray to HaSh... (show quote)
So my statement stands as far as the Hail Mary when we ask her to "Pray for us Sinners" yet the one I was refering to was the "Hail Holy Queen" Which I was refering to.
Rainrider wrote:
You see, when one openly claims to follow HaShem, they must walk with care. It is by your own action, and words, that others will see just how we are to walk with Yeshua, and show our love to and of HaShem. Can this be done by braking this commandment?
I have already responded to this post. I have stated it is wrong for a follower of Christ to condemn another follower of Christ for we are of the same body of Christ. Yet you continue to attack the RCC. This attack is bearing false witness for the exact same reasons you have just posted. I tried to stop you but you called yourself thorough and now you are seeing my point.
I am pointing out the same arguments that are used against the faith can be used for the faith. And the arguments are in reality very silly ones when you consider it is about an individual's faith and love of God and not the traditions of evangelism or traditions of a particular Church. The RCC is a very disciplined religion that focuses on Christ, and many members are too weak to maintain the faith which cause them to go against the faith and harm others. This is seen in the homosexual Priests and in many other ways. This is a direct attack on the Church however, any attack on the followers of Christ, RCC or not, is an attack on Christ. I don't like this argument, and tried to stop it before it got started. However some insisted on the attack, well the same issues that were used against the Church, I have used in defense of the Church. You discredited the rebuttal, thus by default I have won the argument, however, I have also lost the argument.
By attacking the Church of Christ, no matter what the denomination you attack Christ. For if we are God's Children, would God like it if His children were quarrelling over worshiping him? Is this not what we are doing here? Driven by p***e, fear, and jealousy?
You ask me to accept your point of view, yet you call it "bearing false witness" when I apply the same point of view in defense of the Faith. That is an honorable way to fight, however, you made it a double standard. That's dishonorable, for God has no double standard, it is or it isn't. And for this reason I won and lost. You won and lost. We are in an immortal stalemate my friend.
But I do something different than most. Where everyone else says their opponent is wrong, I chastise them and say wait, wisdom tells me they can be right too. And for this reason you too are right. Then one will ask "How can you both be right?" and another asks, "How can you both be wrong?" Do you know what the answer is?
Now, I don't know if you are ready for this wisdom, but I can explain very simply, I also don't know if your readers are ready, but the God's Honest t***h is this: "by the Power of God" you are right and so am I. So why are we quarreling?
Think about it and you will find, maybe after you chew me out, but you will find that I am right. This is why I will not argue anymore, I was just showing by example, how the tools used against my faith in the RCC can also be used in their defense, therefore, it is wrong to attack the RCC, just like it is wrong to attack any of the denominations. Now to attack an individual person is warranted because they are only human, but the faith should not be attacked. Get what I mean? This is written with the ut most respect. I don't know when I'll be able to get back to you. So think on this paragraph. The rest of it is really just semantics really.
Oct 18, 2014 01:15:17 #
Quote:
What I have done was shown you in an interesting w... (show quote)
These statements are reminescent of the serpent in Eden and his deception. For the serpent told Eve she shall not surely die.
If broad interpretations free us from condemnation, why then did Yeshua feel the need to warn us of the BROAD gate?
Yeshua said:
[b]Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.[/b]
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Oct 18, 2014 01:53:02 #
[quote=Darla]These statements are reminescent of the serpent in Eden and his deception. For the serpent told Eve she shall not surely die.
If broad interpretations free us from condemnation, why then did Yeshua feel the need to warn us of the BROAD gate?
Yeshua said:
[b]Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.[/b]
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.[/quote]
Now you are twisting my words. No. You are wrong. Even though these quotes are right they do not apply to the strict and broad interpretations for if they did no one could be saved. Also by the converse of the same statement then no one could be condemned. Therefore they do not apply.
If broad interpretations free us from condemnation, why then did Yeshua feel the need to warn us of the BROAD gate?
Yeshua said:
[b]Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.[/b]
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.[/quote]
Now you are twisting my words. No. You are wrong. Even though these quotes are right they do not apply to the strict and broad interpretations for if they did no one could be saved. Also by the converse of the same statement then no one could be condemned. Therefore they do not apply.
Oct 18, 2014 02:03:31 #
They do apply because that is why Yeshua said FEW there be that find it. and that is why He said NOT ALL who say to Him Lord, lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. Because not ALL will be saved. Because not ALL will be willing to abide by His commandments. MANY will seek loopholes as these many posts on the subject have shown.
Even Paul confirms this. 2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the t***h, that they might be saved. 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the t***h, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
What is the t***h? That we are to ignore HaShem's commandment not to put others, living, dead, wood, stone or metal before Him? I think not.
Even Paul confirms this. 2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the t***h, that they might be saved. 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the t***h, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
What is the t***h? That we are to ignore HaShem's commandment not to put others, living, dead, wood, stone or metal before Him? I think not.
Oct 18, 2014 02:11:58 #
Darla wrote:
They do apply because that is why Yeshua said FEW there be that find it. and that is why He said NOT ALL who say to Him Lord, lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. Because not ALL will be saved. Because not ALL will be willing to abide by His commandments. MANY will seek loopholes as these many posts on the subject have shown.
Now you are arguing a paradox, because if those quotes are applied to strict interpretation no one enters into the kingdom of heaven, if broad interpretation is used, then everyone enters but clearly it is stated that some enter and some do not. So which is strict or broad interpretation?
Oct 18, 2014 02:21:39 #
Ranger7374 wrote:
You have ended the argument here and we need not n... (show quote)
You said,
I have demonstrated the beliefs of those who agree and disagree with the Roman Catholic Faith, and you called it deception, the same deception that the attack was made on Christ's Church.
My reply,
First this not an attack of any kind. It was nothing more than one man wanting to be sure that the t***h of the Word is placed before all men.
As for what I called deception, it had nothing to do with what you claim here. It was in fact straight foreword, and made clear. You posted only a part of thing, then wished to claim that it was I that left a part out. True I did spend a short time in the RCC, how ever that was many years ago. I would have to say, around 35 or so. So lets keep the story to the facts of this discussion.
You said,
This object is Jesus Christ, however we both see Him two different ways. Now, I once again repeat myself, I seek not the destruction on Christ's churches, but rather the unification of His Churches.
My reply,
On this I will only say one thing. HaShem has but one way of doing things. Just as if you tell your kids to be in bed by 2200. Do they then have the right to seek a new meaning of this? If they said I was not in bed at 2200 as my undemanding of this was a bit broader than yours, so I did nothing wrong.
Sadly this is the idea you have conveyed. HaShem was clear in His Laws, He left not one thing to chance, or open to interpretation. Yeshua also gave us a fuller meaning of the Law, and He to made it clear. As Darla said,
Mat 7:13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
If one can simply pick what they wish to follow and it's all good then the above and the following have no place in the teachings of Yeshua.
Mat 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
As you said this is the close of a thing. I do wish to close it with a blessing on all.
May HaShem use this to bless the lives of all that read it. May He seek to open the hearts and minds of all to His will. Most of all, I ask that He bless all with wisdom and understanding, that they can find the t***h in this post, and see any and all deception that may lay with in.
Shalom Brakhah.
Oct 18, 2014 02:31:16 #
Rainrider wrote:
You said, br I have demonstrated the beliefs of t... (show quote)
Note: I was not referring to what the law was, I hope you understand that, I was referring to how to follow the law. There is a difference and people make mistakes here. This is what is broad and strict. For you explained it in your example, but what if the time was relayed as 10 oclock? Is that am or pm. However it could be argued that the original command was 10 oclock. However the original command was 2200 not 10 oclock. However in time the 24hr clock was not used any more. See what I mean?
Notice that as humans change the "status quote" they confuse the rules. this is where broad and strict interpretation comes into play. It is not that one is not following the Law it is the custom used people have a problem with. Jesus had a problem with the Pharisees and the Sadducees for the same reason. This is why I think personally, that the RCC is coming dangerously close to the sin of the Pharisees. However, they are no where near that sin yet.
Thanks to the power of God through the other denominations which checked the RCC. History shows the rest of the argument. Therefore both are right. Okay. I have showed that the same argument against the RCC is the same argument that can be used to defend it. Making the argument invalid. So what we have left is well meaning humans and scripture. Just like in the example of 10 o'clock and 2200 is the same example here.
This is why I see it wrong for Christians to use Scripture against other Christians. This is wrong. Just like two children trying to get the parents on their side. This is what caused Cain to k**l Abel and has started more arguments and caused more wars then ever before. Like I said before, being for Unity I will not defend the RCC foolishly against other Christians, nor will I defend the RCC against Christians period. If you are Baptized in Christ and live your life, to the best of your ability in Christ then you are a child of Christ. Period. My faith in God goes well beyond the Bible, and knows no bounds therefore, using the word of God of the Savior against other Christians is not right but evil. For this reason, I plead no contest and if you want a military term no joy. Therefore, I declare a no contest stalemate.
Shalom Brakhah.
Now let's continue with educating ourselves on Prophecy. Okay?
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