bahmer

Pray tell what does tenure laws and unions have to do with being a Christian. Are you implying that all unions and tenure positions are controlled by Christians. Most of the Christians that I know dislike both tenure and unions. Tenure and unions are usually the result of the progressive socialist left than Christians.

Bigmac495 Loc: Indiana

Stupid answer! Why did you know that , because you made it up!

Glaucon

I can't understand that some of the people who have gained the most from organized labor, Unions, are the most anti union. Our middle class -wh**ever is left of it- has a five-day work week, overtime pay, eight hour day, sick leave, safe working conditions, retirement plans and many other arrangements we would not enjoy without the efforts of organized labor, unions.

I don't know what unions have to do with being Christian. Of course, Jesus was a progressive and supported the middle class as well as the poor.

Tenure is important because It protects teachers from being fired without due process. For example, an administrator can't fire a teacher because she refuses to have sex with him. Prior to tenure, a teacher can be fired and the administrator doesn't have to cite a reason. I think most Christians would support fairness for teachers.

bahmer

Yes but both unions and tenure keep people on the payroll and in their respective posts and positions that are not producers. You cannot fire a teacher who has gained his or her tenure merely on the fact that they are a poor teacher. The same goes for a union shop people are kept in jobs because management is prohibited from firing individuals for being poor and unproductive workers. Instead as a supervisor I would be required to give talking's to, then warnings, then a day off, then two days off etc. up to a month off and finally it goes even longer but I sat down and figured it up one time and it would take approximately two years of being on one guys case and that guy would have to be pretty stupid to keep doing the same thing over and over again. But it comes down to the fact that you have to get out the product and so you stick this guy in a position that is not really vital and put him in a corner. Unfortunately in union shops sometimes they run out of corners do to an influx of useless people. For the most part unions have outlived their usefulness and they can always be brought back if we were to slip all the way back to what you describe as the workplace of the before union error.

Glaucon

You have had some very bad experiences with both unions and teacher tenure and if I had that kind of experiences, I would definitely feel as you do. However, my experiences with both have been quite different.
I have been a school administrator and have fired teachers. The problem is that teachers who are awarded tenure have taken the appropriate university courses and internships, Have been granted a license to teach by the state, have been hired by a school administrator, have been found to have demonstrated satisfactory performance after the first year of teaching and given a second contract, and after the end of the second year, the school board, on the recommendation of their supervisors, are given a second contract and are awarded tenure. It seems to me the teacher has been found competent many times and either the teacher is competent to teach and is not being treated fairly, has some new problem, or is just leaning on the oars that prevents them from meeting performance standards. I found that by insuring the teacher’s constitutional rights to due process, and being able to state specifically in what way the teacher was under performing it was rather easy to dismiss them. I have found that unions usually don’t want incompetent teachers either, and only wants to insure the teachers are treated fairly in the dismissal process.
I have belonged to five different unions in my life and they have been good and bad and mostly in between. I attempted to correct the bad and use the good and that was an ongoing process, because organizations tend to irrelevancy, incompetency, and corruption if neglected. Dismissal procedures and policy are negotiated in union contracts and some are needed and fair and some are terrible for either employee or worker or both. The provisions in the contracts are mutually agreed upon and both parties are responsible to insure they are fair, each for the side they represent. I like unions, because I had no power in my negotiations for pay and working conditions and, without unions, as an individual, I would have been powerless. Worker’s power came and continues to come through unions.

Glaucon

Why is it I was able to predict that you would answer as you did? Scoolin makes a person stupid, right?

bahmer

My union experience came my working at Ford motor Co. in Chicago IL stamping plant as a supervisor. The only thing that some of these "sk**led trades" workers were good at is finding hiding spots in a large building. A number of them had full time businesses on the side and came to Ford Motor Co. "worked" the night shift which was a joke. They would show up in the shop and if there was little to do as some evenings were they would first go for break, then they would go find there bed (believe me they had mattresses and pillows in some of these places) and go to sleep. There were a number of them that actually looked at there job there as a place to sleep. They would be most incensed if I found them and requested that they get to work.
As far as tenure is concerned I would suggest that you look at the Chicago Public School System.
(CNSNews.com) - Seventy-nine percent of the 8th graders in the Chicago Public Schools are not grade-level proficient in reading, according to the U.S. Department of Education, and 80 percent are not grade-level proficient in math.
This is what I think tenure does in schools.

Bigmac495 Loc: Indiana

I support teachers that are doing their job, but not the ones that don't yet the unions fight the hardest for the ones that don't . They don't need to do anything for the ones that do their job!
And they are really pricing business's out of the market, or we will put you out of business with strikes! That is extortion in my mind!