rumitoid

What I find tremendously interesting is that God's two intelligent creations rebelled against him. It would seem he had to put something in both, besides Free Will, to turn them against him. Why would Free Will lead to sin? Both their basic reference point is a loving father who provides all they need even before they think of it. What could possibly promote rebellion?

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Good question...

I believe mankind's rebellion involved the trickery of a third party though...

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Interesting...

Do you know if the Islamic concept of Satan was taken from Christian sources?

padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al

Only free will is required to turn away from God. In Genesis we are told that Satan's temptation to our first parents was that they, too, could become like God. And this sin, Pride, is the root of every sin. I believe the greatest example how deadly pride can become we find with the betrayer, Judas. That he betrayed Christ was not the overriding reason he committed suicide. His grievous sin was that he believed he'd done something so wrong so evil, that even Jesus could not forgive him. The sin of pride killed Judas and it continues to be even more deadly today. Jesus is able to forgive the sins of the whole world yet the sin of pride prevents many folks the simple act of asking forgiveness for themselves.

Peewee Loc: San Antonio, TX

So who is the Serpent in Genesis? And where does evil come from or the Nephilim and their offspring in Genesis Six? Satan has many names, ie. Ba'al, the Serpent was cursed? The book of Enoch may not be canonized but explains it very well and in detail. What entity keeps trying to destroy the Jewish people and Israel? Because someone has been trying to for centuries and I'm pretty sure it isn't God.

Priests and Rabbi's are fully human and the Catholic Church is proof of that. There seems to be a cosmic war going on to me, between heavenly beings and humans souls are the prize.

The only two possible sins Jesus may have committed during his life were driving the money changers out of the Temple (His Father's House) and disagreeing with some Priests and Rabbi's.

People with too much power and authority often become money hungry and intolerant too, some will even commit murder to hang on to it. Love your priests and rabbis just remember they are human and are entirely capable of sinning just like everyone to include rewriting history. There are even some Jewish sects that think Israel shouldn't even be a nation again. Be proud of who you are and your history and traditions. You have blessed the nations. But you have also been exiled a few times. So you aren't perfect yet and neither are we gentiles, we are all a work in progress.

Congrats on regaining territorial control of Israel's borders, Judah, Summaria and the Golan. I'm thrilled for you and all Jews everywhere! The Temple can't be too far away!

padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al

Peewee, Jesus could never have committed sin. If He had, He could never be our savior. Simple answer.

My friend perhaps you never knew that when a priest hears a confession an important part of the ritual is to beg the penitent to pray for him too because he's also a sinner. The Roman Church changed their ritual for confession many years ago but I would be very much surprised if that request was left out. Humility is a poor foundation for power. There are, of course, exceptions for us mere mortals.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

You do ask interesting questions. In the beginning, G*d was the single creator. This means that He created everything known to humankind. Before He created man, He created all animals and entities, some call them angels or spirits, for specific purposes. Within those entities, He created a being to be an accuser, a clever creature that would test Eve whom G*d created after man. The accuser's only job was to put Eve into a difficult and uncomfortable position which would not only give her the opportunity to exercise free will, obey G*d or test the will of G*d, but force her to exercise that attribute given to her by our Creator. Understand this completely....the snake or accuser was absolutely necessary to complete the intent of G*d. The accuser was a success, so successful that he would walk the earth (cursed) until the end of days performing the job he was created to do. He is nothing to fear because he can not force a person to disobey G*d, or "sin."

Now, to the nature of Jesus and potential sin. Before we explore any sin he may have committed, we must look at what is sin. In my faith, a sin is a deliberate decision to disobey G*d. Modern man has a long list of sinful actions, but G*d's rules are specific.... Moses was given the Law, and it is short list. 1. You will not worship another god, 2. You will not worship any image, 3. You will not use His name in vain (curse anyone or thing using the name of G*d), 4. keep the Sabbath, 5. honor your parents, 6. Do not murder, 7. Do not commit adultery, 8. do not steal, 9. do not lie about your neighbor, and 10. do not covet what belongs to your neighbor. The transgression enumerated in Leviticus was provided to compliment the initial laws and to give methods to atone for transgressions. Many of those laws were developed to keep the community healthy.

Now to your question....did Jesus sin? No, there is no evidence that he sinned or willfully disobeyed G*d's laws. Did he commit any transgression listed in Leviticus? Probably, but remember that a transgression is a mistake that one can atone. There is no method to atone for breaking the laws. We were not provided with a detailed account of his life, but recall that his accusers at his trial could not point to a law he broke, and his judge could not rule him as guilty.

Jesus' tossing the money changers out of the Temple was not a sin. It could have become a sin had Jesus let his anger lead him to murder. But, he did not. He was angered, an emotion given by G*d when He created us, not a sin. Disagreeing with a Rabbi is not sinful, it is an exercise in learning or educating. Things are never changed until they are challenged...a disagreement is not a sin. A Christian minister or priest is generally considered as handpicked by G*d or Jesus to weigh guilt or innocence, determine sinfulness, and lead individuals on a Christian path to salvation. Whereas a Rabbi is simply a human who has extensive education in the laws, not a priest. Their job is not to judge but rather to teach or impart their learnings. Those hearing them can exercise free will and disagree (argue) the Rabbi's conclusions.

Hope this is beneficial.

Peewee Loc: San Antonio, TX

I agree, but many are not Bible students. That's why I said the only two possible sins. He did use a whip chasing the money changers out and he didn't submit to the authority of the Priests because He is the Word in Genesis.

padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al

I people may have gotten a wrong opinion of the Jewish hierarchy. For the most part they were good, learned and righteous men, pillars of their faith and society. It seems to me that the main reason Jesus called them vipers is because they had added so many do's and do not's and must do's, for which Christans call being saved, to the faith that it was practically impossible for the common man to follow them. Let's not forget that any righteous Jew
would have found Jesus blasphemous St. Paul surely did. Jesus claimed to be God. He did submit to some requirements of His faith when, for example, He told lepers he'd healed to go show themselves to the priests who alone could declare them healed. Of course, there are always a few bad apples in every faith.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

His use of a whip was not a sin, could perhaps been contradictory to his own teaching, but hypocrisy is a mistake, and as I said...he could atone for that error.

As for Priests and his possible "disobeying" them. He was under only civil obligation to listen or even respect the priests of his time. It was the priests’ duty to carry out the temple service correctly to maintain this abundance and security. Priests were to be from the tribe of Levi, the first was appointed by G*d Himself. During that time, priesthood was lifelong position and passed down from father to son. This lasted for many years until Israel was invaded and occupied by Rome. This is when thing turned bad and wrong and why Jesus could and did show them disrespect. Rome began systematically to claim the right of appointment and filling the position based on their own religious and political considerations. For example, Herod the Great appointed at least six of them, a frequent turnover that the New Testament hints at (John 11:51). During the active ministry of Jesus, those in higher positions...the Priests, Pharisees, and the Sadducees were not necessarily religious, or "real Jews." It is quite possible that these appointee came directly from "Palestine" and were political appointees. Their "rulings" were biased against the common Jew and they were puppets of Rome. This lasted until the destruction of the Temple in 70AD. It is wrong to believe that we have any priests, none have existed from the destruction of the Temple.

Hope this helps.

Peewee Loc: San Antonio, TX

It was. I try to ask interesting questions because the wall between Christians and Jews has always bothered me. I'm fond of the 'One New Man' belief where Jews believe the Messiah is Yeshuah and where gentiles are grafted into the olive tree. It just makes sense to me. Only then do we become one. You are without a doubt God's chosen people but God also loves all the people He created. So there has to be a way to reconcile it all. The only way I see that happening is through Yeshuah (Salvation).

So who was Ba'al? A false pagan god or the accuser? The Satan I know is also referred to as the accuser who took a third of the angels with him when he rebelled. That would allow for many of the pagan gods and possibly the Greek Titans. Even Solomon sacrificed some of his children to Ba'al or Moleck but he may have begun to grow a little senile since scripture says in his old age which was about sixty when he died.

The accuser, tempter, Lucifer, Morning Star, Beelzabud, or Satan did lie in Gen 3: 4-5 when he told Eve she wouldn't die. Everyone since, with the exception of the two witnesses, who return in the last days, has surely died.

The accuser does more than just accuse. Daniel 8:5 Through his shrewdness he will cause deceit to succeed by his influence, and he will magnify himself in his heart, and he will destroy many who are at ease. He will even oppose the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human agency.

He also does more than accuse, he seems to challenge God directly in Exodus 7: 11-12. Then Pharaoh called his wise men, sorcerers, and magicians of Egypt did the same with their secret arts. Each one threw down their staffs and they turned into serpents. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs.

Pilate judged him and found no fault with him. But to appease the priests he had him flogged and crucified.
After three days He rose from the dead but many others rose with him according to Josephus and others.

There are really only three possibilities as to who Jesus is. 1. Insane 2. a liar 3. He was who he said he was, the Son of God. Angels are often called the Sons of God and some men are called the Sons of God. A good angel overshadowed Mary and delivered some unique DNA into Mary from God. We don't know much about Jesus's childhood or time in Egypt. But he had to wait until age 30 to begin his ministry. He did keep Torah because you can't become a Hebrew priest until age 30. No other man has influenced the world as much as Jesus, a Jew, a Hebrew, and Israelite. The promised one, the lamb's blood in Egypt, the ram pulled from the thicket by Abraham, the perfect sacrifice, the way maker, the Messiah.

Daniel does predict the arrival of the Messiah in Daniel 9. I've read both Christian and Jewish explanations of Daniel 9. Whichever decree you settle on it's close to when Jesus appeared. No one else had cast out demons, given sight to the blind, fed hundreds of people, calmed the sea, and other miracles, except Yeshuah.

Before Yeshuah rabbis taught of a suffering Messiah. After Yeshuah it became Israel. At least we both agree the messiah is coming again at the end of days as King Messiah. Only a prince can become a King legitimately. Even the tents of the twelve tribes, when plotted out, are in the shape of a cross.

I love to study the word (scriptures). So many treasures or nuggets to be discovered. It never grows old.

If the Temple treasures are found in Qumran, which is a reverse image of Jerusalem. The temple will be rebuilt quickly. I just hope the new Sanhedrin goes easy on Christians and Jews for Jesus once they gain power.

I always enjoy discussing scriptures with my Jewish brothers and sisters. I always pray for the peace of Jerusalem. This Jerusalem may never be my home but the new one will be. I still have so much to learn. Got to work harder on that obedience part, still pitiful in that department.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions. You and Zemirah both provoke me to jealousy. But you both have gotten me back to studying scripture again for myself. So, I feel very blessed. Thank you! I know your Papa is proud of his daughter.

Peewee Loc: San Antonio, TX

It sure did. I've heard of Herod being controlled by Rome and not being a real Jew, but I've never heard of the Priests being appointed by Rome. That clears up a lot of my misunderstanding, no wonder things were so screwed up and also explains why the Essenes relocated and probably took and buried the temple treasures. Only Ceaser could be called a god during that time. Anyone else being called God or a Son of God would get you crucified for being a threat to Rome. It helped a lot. Thanks again!