Why should we care or make room for multi-culturism? (Page 10): I will neither confirm or deny, but you are a perceptive person.

son of witless

dtucker300 wrote:

Would those certain folks happen to be left-wing progressive Democrats perchance?

You don't have to answer this.

I will neither confirm or deny, but you are a perceptive person.

dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA

son of witless wrote:

I will neither confirm or deny, but you are a perceptive person.

??? You think so? Wah Ha Ha! Got you fooled also.

JW

Saspatz007 wrote:

...
Secular ethics seems to be in direct opposition to Judeo-Christian ethics. Secular ethics puts forward the argument that society and law has an obligation to advance (progress) in ethical development. As such it stands as the ethical foundation of progressivism.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_ethics#Tenets_of_secular_ethics

In Western culture, secular ethics is built on Judeo-Christian values.

Just two examples:

1) "...society and law has(sic) an obligation to advance (progress) in ethical development". This is another way to state, "do unto others as you would have done unto you". While the "Golden Rule" is not exclusive to any one religion, it is far from universal in religions. The idea that such considerations should advance in time is seen as growth in awareness. In Western culture, it derives from religion. That is to say, it is based on religious values. Western religious values are Judeo-Christian in origin.

2) The idea that theft is morally prohibited is directly from the 10 Commandments. The idea that stealing is a virtue is promoted by some societies if the theft benefits your family or your religion or your King.

"There were a number of Native American tribes in the plains area that made stealing a rite of passage. This included kidnapping their wives from other tribes, which helped avoid inbreeding. Stealing was considered both more honorable and more impressive than k*****g their enemies. This helped avoid retribution turning into extinction." and, " Many human cultures have condoned and applauded stealing so long as the victims are deemed to be outside the protected group. The outsiders from whom stealing is permitted could be physical outsiders - for instance cattle-raiding from enemy tribes is praised in many warrior-pastoral societies, or they could be a persecuted group who live within the physical boundaries of the thieves' society but are not properly protected by its laws, like the Helots in ancient Sparta."
https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/29814/could-i-have-a-culture-where-stealing-is-not-wrong

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Western culture derives most of its ethical standards from the Judeo-Christian ethos that have been ubiquitous in the life experience within the Western world. That secular ethics might specify concepts that have evolved from a religious root doesn't change their origin.

As for Progressivism, there is a substantial difference between the concept and the political execution of the concept as is always the case when any concept becomes political. For example, Locke and Hobbes were both liberal political philosophers and Democrats and Republicans are both liberal offshoots of the thinking of those two men. There is a world of difference between both.

Saspatz007 Loc: The goat sheds

JW wrote:

In Western culture, secular ethics is built on Judeo-Christian values.

Just two examples:

1) "...society and law has(sic) an obligation to advance (progress) in ethical development". This is another way to state, "do unto others as you would have done unto you". While the "Golden Rule" is not exclusive to any one religion, it is far from universal in religions. The idea that such considerations should advance in time is seen as growth in awareness. In Western culture, it derives from religion. That is to say, it is based on religious values. Western religious values are Judeo-Christian in origin.

2) The idea that theft is morally prohibited is directly from the 10 Commandments. The idea that stealing is a virtue is promoted by some societies if the theft benefits your family or your religion or your King.

"There were a number of Native American tribes in the plains area that made stealing a rite of passage. This included kidnapping their wives from other tribes, which helped avoid inbreeding. Stealing was considered both more honorable and more impressive than k*****g their enemies. This helped avoid retribution turning into extinction." and, " Many human cultures have condoned and applauded stealing so long as the victims are deemed to be outside the protected group. The outsiders from whom stealing is permitted could be physical outsiders - for instance cattle-raiding from enemy tribes is praised in many warrior-pastoral societies, or they could be a persecuted group who live within the physical boundaries of the thieves' society but are not properly protected by its laws, like the Helots in ancient Sparta."
https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/29814/could-i-have-a-culture-where-stealing-is-not-wrong

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Western culture derives most of its ethical standards from the Judeo-Christian ethos that have been ubiquitous in the life experience within the Western world. That secular ethics might specify concepts that have evolved from a religious root doesn't change their origin.

As for Progressivism, there is a substantial difference between the concept and the political execution of the concept as is always the case when any concept becomes political. For example, Locke and Hobbes were both liberal political philosophers and Democrats and Republicans are both liberal offshoots of the thinking of those two men. There is a world of difference between both.

In Western culture, secular ethics is built on Jud... (show quote)

Do you know what the philosophical foundation of progressivism is?

JW

Saspatz007 wrote:

Do you know what the philosophical foundation of progressivism is?

It is possible to have a good foundation and still build a garbage structure on it.

rumitoid

JW wrote:

In Western culture, secular ethics is built on Judeo-Christian values.

Just two examples:

1) "...society and law has(sic) an obligation to advance (progress) in ethical development". This is another way to state, "do unto others as you would have done unto you". While the "Golden Rule" is not exclusive to any one religion, it is far from universal in religions. The idea that such considerations should advance in time is seen as growth in awareness. In Western culture, it derives from religion. That is to say, it is based on religious values. Western religious values are Judeo-Christian in origin.

2) The idea that theft is morally prohibited is directly from the 10 Commandments. The idea that stealing is a virtue is promoted by some societies if the theft benefits your family or your religion or your King.

"There were a number of Native American tribes in the plains area that made stealing a rite of passage. This included kidnapping their wives from other tribes, which helped avoid inbreeding. Stealing was considered both more honorable and more impressive than k*****g their enemies. This helped avoid retribution turning into extinction." and, " Many human cultures have condoned and applauded stealing so long as the victims are deemed to be outside the protected group. The outsiders from whom stealing is permitted could be physical outsiders - for instance cattle-raiding from enemy tribes is praised in many warrior-pastoral societies, or they could be a persecuted group who live within the physical boundaries of the thieves' society but are not properly protected by its laws, like the Helots in ancient Sparta."
https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/29814/could-i-have-a-culture-where-stealing-is-not-wrong

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Western culture derives most of its ethical standards from the Judeo-Christian ethos that have been ubiquitous in the life experience within the Western world. That secular ethics might specify concepts that have evolved from a religious root doesn't change their origin.

As for Progressivism, there is a substantial difference between the concept and the political execution of the concept as is always the case when any concept becomes political. For example, Locke and Hobbes were both liberal political philosophers and Democrats and Republicans are both liberal offshoots of the thinking of those two men. There is a world of difference between both.

In Western culture, secular ethics is built on Jud... (show quote)

You make some good arguments, but I disagree on one. If we were talking Christianity, this statement is patently an attack on the Bible: "...society and law has(sic) an obligation to advance (progress) in ethical development." No, we are justified through Christ. We cannot advance in ethical development; it is imparted to us through the Savior.

Rose42

rumitoid wrote:

You make some good arguments, but I disagree on one. If we were talking Christianity, this statement is patently an attack on the Bible: "...society and law has(sic) an obligation to advance (progress) in ethical development." No, we are justified through Christ. We cannot advance in ethical development; it is imparted to us through the Savior.

What about the Jews in the OT? Do you know what biblical justification means?

Saspatz007 Loc: The goat sheds

JW wrote:

It is possible to have a good foundation and still build a garbage structure on it.

So it went sideways under Roosevelt?

Saspatz007 Loc: The goat sheds

rumitoid wrote:

You make some good arguments, but I disagree on one. If we were talking Christianity, this statement is patently an attack on the Bible: "...society and law has(sic) an obligation to advance (progress) in ethical development." No, we are justified through Christ. We cannot advance in ethical development; it is imparted to us through the Savior.

Exactly.

dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA

Saspatz007 wrote:

So it went sideways under Roosevelt?

Which one? Teddy or FDR?

JW

rumitoid wrote:

You make some good arguments, but I disagree on one. If we were talking Christianity, this statement is patently an attack on the Bible: "...society and law has(sic) an obligation to advance (progress) in ethical development." No, we are justified through Christ. We cannot advance in ethical development; it is imparted to us through the Savior.

We are not born knowing God's grace. It is something we must learn of and then seek and accept. By the same token, mature minds have an obligation to make this world a better place in which to live. God gave us a brain and a heart. Don't you think He intended us to use them?

JW

Saspatz007 wrote:

So it went sideways under Roosevelt?

It started going sideways under John Marshall. It peaked in its errant travel under FDR. Human society doesn't seem comfortable without a king and those who deem to be king don't seem comfortable among the people.

The Founders created a system that precludes a king and that has been a constant source of frustration to the Left, most notably to the Progressive Left. They have put forward an agenda that subjugates the people to their vision and they keep bumping into the Constitution. They have tried to invalidate the Constitution ever since Marshall. Nothing has worked so in the last 80 years they have tried to reinterpret the Constitution instead of invalidating it.

If we adhere to the spirit and the letter of the Constitution, we need never fear the ascension of a king.

dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA

JW wrote:

We are not born knowing God's grace. It is something we must learn of and then seek and accept. By the same token, mature minds have an obligation to make this world a better place in which to live. God gave us a brain and a heart. Don't you think He intended us to use them?

Right on!

dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA

JW wrote:

It started going sideways under John Marshall. It ... (show quote)

Good point. Most Americans appreciate the liberty and free will we have been given through the grace of God, and by the blood, sweat, and tears of our ancestors and the earliest citizens of the country, through a civil war that kept us divided for too long. Far too few immigrants are coming from countries with democratic traditions and institutions. This is not in their DNA like it is instilled in those from English speaking countries who have a rich tradition in representative democratic republicanism and parliamentary governance. It is human nature to want to be taken care of. This is adding to the growth of the left-wing and progressive legislation trying to create a socialist utopia. History has shown us that it can't be done without infringing on the God-given rights of every person which leads to their subjugation under the control of the state. If you are not willing to earn your way and take personal responsibility for your actions then you should not come to this country. We value free will over fate.

JW

dtucker300 wrote:

Good point. Most Americans appreciate the liberty... (show quote)

Agreed!