rumitoid

What was the flaw? If there was not a creative flaw by God in their basic formation, what is to blame? If there was, who is to blame?

Why would free will lead to r*******n and sin? How does free will undermine a desire for God?

Two examples of intelligent species and they came to oppose God. If I made a AI computer that did so poorly in making life decisions, I would be laughed out of the market and disgraced. Wouldn't the error be my fault? How can God condemn or hold them accountable for any wrong-doing?

Isn't the account in Genesis really bothersome? There is no creature yet called Satan. Where is the temptation from and why? A perfect existence of obedience and love until this one isolated moment. No suggestions of real cause or conflict. How is it possible? Both the fallen angels and our prototype ancestors wanted to be as God: where did that come from? It is like a two year old grabbing the car keys and driving to a casino. Absurd! What could possess him or her?

Iliamna1

In a word . . . Satan, AKA Lucifer. He was the most beautiful and powerful of all the angels and became impressed by his glory (which was never his, but belonged to His creator) and he decided he would be God and would supplant his Creator. The very first sin was p***e. He was cast down with about 1/3 of the angelic host who were deceived by him.
Then came the testing in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were told they could eat of any fruit except for one tree. There was nothing magic about that fruit. It could have been an apple, or papaya, or banana. The point is, Satan knew Eve was curious about it, and at a time when Adam wasn't around, Satan lied to her and told her if she ate that fruit she'd become like God. She took his bait and ate it and then took it to Adam. He knew what she'd done, but not wanting to lose her, he also ate. Later, when asked why he ate of that fruit, he blamed it on God . . . "The woman, who You gave me, gave me the fruit." Same old blame game since humanity started, It all started with p***e.

Hug

Read John Melton's PARADISE LOST

John King

"...What was the flaw?..."

There was no flaw!

"...If there was not a creative flaw by God in their basic formation, what is to blame?..."

God created these two beings with free will! Why would God create these beings with free will?!? Because God did not want creatures that were forced to believe and love Him . . . God want creatures to choose to believe in Him and love Him! That can not be done without free will!

"...Why would free will lead to r*******n and sin? How does free will undermine a desire for God?..."

Free will allows us to decide for ourselves what we will do with God. Lucifer had envy for the position of God and desired it for himself! This is the sin that got him thrown out of heaven . . . because no sin can exist in the presence of God. Somehow, Lucifer got a third of the angels to rebel with him and they all got thrown out. It is free will that allows one to decide to believe in God and serve God . . . Lucifer decided to serve himself in r*******n against God. Adam and Eve disobeyed God's one commandment . . . and brought sin upon all mankind by this sin of disobedience. Both beings, because of their free will to decide what to do, made the choice to sin against God.


"...How can God condemn or hold them accountable for any wrong-doing?..."

God had to create these beings with free will . . . otherwise He would be making puppets that do as He wanted . . . God did not want to make them love Him . . . He wanted them to choose to love Him! Is it God's fault that angels and humans choose to not love Him or not believe in Him? No, we all have that choice to make on our own . . . agents of free will can choose . . . a computer just does what you program it to do. Although, if an AI comes to be self-realized, wouldn't it also have free will at that point? Therefore . . . free will is the ultimate end result of self-realization!

If you have a problem with Genesis, I suggest you do your own study of the Bible and find out for yourself! Telling you the answer to these bothersome questions would not be sufficient in my opinion!

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

Why did God create anything in the first place?

rumitoid

satan was the word for adversary in Genesis, not an evil being. As far as Lucifer, what explains his self-infatuation; no one tempted him. It just makes no sense.

rumitoid

Did so in HS over fifty years ago. And...?

rumitoid

Very good question!

rumitoid

I do not have a problem with Genesis; why assume that because I ask questions? I want to see if you have something to add. But you are not addressing my questions. Why is it that free will can lead to sin? What is wrong with the mechanism of free will that it could possibly rebel against God? Why make us that way, with this damaged view of life?

Explain why and how Lucifer could have envy for the position of God and desired it for himself? What prompted such an ambition? How could Lucifer even come to contemplate it? Do you see my point?

plainlogic

It sounds as though Lucifer had the first act of vanity, just like people do today. Maybe that's where people get it vanity from, Lucifer. All things will become clear once you're gone.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Thanks Rumi....

Good question....

Will need to put sone thought into it...

John King

You would need to know why people murder! You would need to know why there are people like Jeffrey Dahmer or Charlie Manson! You would need to know why Hitler gassed millions of Jews!

The question is . . . . why is there evil!

What leads a child to hide something they took from their brother? Why do kids that smoke lie to their parents and tell them they don't smoke?

Free will means we are responsible for our choices! The fact that there is good and there is evil choices people make rest completely in the hearts and minds of those making the choice and why they make that choice! To me, it would be out of the question to rebel against God . . . but the choice was made to do it!

Why do people choose to do evil instead of good? I don't know why! But I do know it is our choice and we are responsible for our choices!

Perhaps you should ask yourself why you do what you do!

Uoceph

Your inscience is ok. You do not actually understand the concept of "free will" other than in a purely PHILOSOPHIC sense. This is hardly new or unusual. However, those who have passed beyond this state into the PRACTICAL EXPERIENTIAL do understand (bit by bit as experience grows).

Be well

Uoceph

Oh, & may I add, the Hebrew for serpent does mean that, but also the "shining one". think about your life and those things you desire because they "shine" (to you). Does this help you to understand that DECEPTION (completely self induced if one views the ego more clearly) can tend to make one opt for what shines, despite "you shall not ' (read, "look, stupid, I mean not in the sense this will hurt you - BUT go ahead exercise free well, I still mean you well and learning, IS, after all, experiential")

Uoceph

AND what WAS the "fruit of the tree good & evil"?

think!
Good & evil.
Also thing, "Judge not for wh**ever judgement you meet outfit shall be measured out to you again"

The fruit - JUDGEMENT

Something humans do often and easily, but are completely incapable of it in the greater sense.

(To help from a more scientific {albeit theoretical} sense, try reading "The Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind")