I'm going to try to make a point here, and we'll see how well I do. I'm a Vietnam era veteran who enlisted but never spent a day on Vietnamese soil because:
A. It was winding down.
B. Chance (maybe luck? who knows).

I respect the hell out of those who spent any time there or in any combat theater. And I respect everyone else who served because even in "peacetime", lives are lost, families are disrupted and broken up, 95% of us were certainly not doing it "for the Benjamins", and after taking a solemn oath, you performed your duty until your ETS (always some exceptions here). And those who chose NOT to serve were able to enjoy living in the greatest friggin' country the world has ever seen, free to pursue life, liberty, and happiness.

Here's the thing. I don't think we should demean anyone when it comes to serving in the military or not serving. There are just as many reasons that people choose to serve as there are reasons not to serve. During the draft years, many had few if any choices. Those folks had the dice rolled for them. Others had options (wealth, connections, wh**ever) and made use of them or didn't. Nearly every group of people, however you divide them contain those who would serve and those who would not.

For example, go through the list of those in the Senate. Very roughly 25% have military service in their backgrounds. Does that mean that 75% of the Senators are cowards? I don't think you can draw that conclusion.

Now I would single out Senator Richard Blumenthal for his stolen valor, but other than that...

President Trump has made no bones about the fact that he did not serve. That should be the end of it. There have been 12 Presidents who never served in the military (including Woodrow Wilson, Calvin Coolidge, Herbert Hoover, FDR, Bill Clinton, and Barack Obama) and 4 more who did not see action (Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, John Quincy Adams, and James Polk). Some pretty good Presidents in those last 2 groups.

If you want to demean President Trump for not serving, the problem is yours, not his. He should be judged on his actions as President, and if you're a veteran maybe how he's treating the military. I have no complaints.

Concerning the USS Forrester incident, a short excerpt from your above link...

"On the morning of July 29, 1967, McCain was sitting in the cockpit of his Skyhawk waiting to be launched by the ship’s catapult. Another plane accidentally set off a Zuni missile that hit the fuel tank of McCain’s A-4, touching off a fire that spread rapidly across the ship. McCain managed to escape injury, but 134 sailors died and many others were badly burned.

It was the worst U.S. Navy accident since World War Two and the fourth serious accident McCain had been involved in since becoming a pilot. His reputation for being a “hotdog”—a show-off pilot who broke the rules—led to rumors that McCain had caused the fire by trying to scare the pilot behind him by suddenly shooting flames out of his tail exhaust. There was no evidence McCain was at fault and the fire was ruled accidental. But the rumors persisted."

So? What's your point? I never said McCain was responsible for that fire. I have read the article I posted several times. I know what's in it from top to bottom. What's real is what the crew said about flying and working alongside McCain - they liked to party with him, but when it came to missions and serious things, they wanted nothing to do with him.

If you read the whole article, you would see how he got himself shot down, according to his crew mates, one of whom had a camera,...how he didn't know how to eject himself and therefore had 2 arms and a leg broken. It was not the Vietnamese who broke his bones - it was his stupidity.

Yes, Emily, I read the entire article. I question your having read all my numerous posts on this thread, to include the newsletter from NAMPOW past president, Mike McGrath. Excuse me if I don't take you much too seriously after your indirectly suggesting the NAMPOW organization took bribes from McCain to voice overwhelming support for him. Flawed as Mr. McCain was, in many minds, he remains an American hero.

After having read all of your posts regarding said flawed American hero John McCain, I find that "you have been weighed...you have been measured and you have been found wanting." I have no doubt that your opinion of me may be as high as mine of you.

But, the right to openly express a diversity in opinions is part of what makes this nation great.

SEMPER FI

So? What's your point? I never said McCain was responsible for that fire. I have read the article I posted several times. I know what's in it from top to bottom. Grant, the author, writes the t***h about what happened with McCain, including that t***h about the Forrestal fire. What's real is what the crew said about flying and working alongside McCain - they liked to party with him, but when it came to missions and serious things, they wanted nothing to do with him. He graduated 894th out of a class of 899 at the Naval Academy and barely passed flight school. He completely destroyed 2 planes and severely damaged a third....something that others would not get away with and stay enlisted. But he had his Admiral father to keep him out of all the troubles he kept getting into.

If you read the whole article, you would see how he got himself shot down, according to his crew mates, one of whom had a camera,...how he didn't know how to eject himself properly and therefore had 2 arms and a leg broken. It was not the Vietnamese who broke his bones - it was his own stupidity.

permafrost. Insulting me shows more about what you are than what I am.

Here are a few of Trump's more important accomplishments. There is lots more than this:

- Middle class wage increases. Incomes in general soared in 2018, with average hourly earnings finally eclipsing 3 percent growth for the first time since before the Great Recession. The news is even better for blue-collar workers, who now realize wage growth above that of white-collar workers for the first time in nearly a decade.

- U.S.-Mexico-Canada Trade Deal – Trump proved that America welcomes equitable global commerce by cementing a badly needed modernization of NAFTA. The USMCA provides a template for other such trade pacts and effectively isolates China’s increasingly untenable posture.

- Ending the Iran Nuclear Deal – Gone are the days of coddling the mullahs who have terrorized America and our allies for decades. Instead of counting the billions of dollars of cash sent via secret nighttime flights by the Obama administration, the Tehran regime now faces a U.S. leadership determined to thwart its tyranny and prevent its nuclearization.

- Moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem – Trump proved once again how differently he governs compared to Washington norms. Past presidents promised for decades to make this move and U.S. law has required it since 1995, but only President Trump made good on his pledge, honored our ally, and recognized the obvious reality that Jerusalem is the eternal capital of Israel.

- Smashing the ISIS Caliph**e and Exiting Syria. Unlike his predecessor, who haughtily dismissed and ignored the ISIS threat as terrorists’ “JV team,” President Trump smartly dispatched limited U.S. troops to help our partners erase the territorial caliph**e that had inflicted unspeakable human rights abuses. Just as importantly, Trump also announced the withdrawal of U.S. forces from Syria, placing the primary burden for ongoing stability upon regional powers Israel, Saudi Arabia and the UAE.

- Increasing Minority Jobs – If Trump is actually r****t, as biased mainstream media “journalists” often claim, he’s remarkably bad at it, because people of color have thrived under the pro-growth policies of the Trump Boom. Black joblessness in 2018 reached the lowest levels ever recorded. For Hispanics, in history there have been a total of 14 months with a jobless rate under 5 percent -- and 13 of those months have unfolded under the leadership of President Trump. Small business dynamism is particularly crucial for minority advancement, and small business surveys report optimism among entrepreneurs at record highs in 2018.

- Record American Oil Production – In 2018, the U.S. surpassed Russia and Saudi Arabia to become the world’s largest producer of crude oil. Through aggressive regulatory relief and pro-energy moves like green-lighting the Keystone XL pipeline, President Trump paved the way for an independent energy future.

Now I'm sure you're going to go ahead and tell me that Obama did all these things...but real, every day average Americans know that is a joke because they are experiencing the benefits NOW, not two years ago.

permafrost. Insulting me shows more about what you are than what I am.

Here are a few of Trump's more important accomplishments. There is lots more than this:

- Middle class wage increases. Incomes in general soared in 2018, with average hourly earnings finally eclipsing 3 percent growth for the first time since before the Great Recession. The news is even better for blue-collar workers, who now realize wage growth above that of white-collar workers for the first time in nearly a decade.

- U.S.-Mexico-Canada Trade Deal – Trump proved that America welcomes equitable global commerce by cementing a badly needed modernization of NAFTA. The USMCA provides a template for other such trade pacts and effectively isolates China’s increasingly untenable posture.

- Ending the Iran Nuclear Deal – Gone are the days of coddling the mullahs who have terrorized America and our allies for decades. Instead of counting the billions of dollars of cash sent via secret nighttime flights by the Obama administration, the Tehran regime now faces a U.S. leadership determined to thwart its tyranny and prevent its nuclearization.

- Moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem – Trump proved once again how differently he governs compared to Washington norms. Past presidents promised for decades to make this move and U.S. law has required it since 1995, but only President Trump made good on his pledge, honored our ally, and recognized the obvious reality that Jerusalem is the eternal capital of Israel.

- Smashing the ISIS Caliph**e and Exiting Syria. Unlike his predecessor, who haughtily dismissed and ignored the ISIS threat as terrorists’ “JV team,” President Trump smartly dispatched limited U.S. troops to help our partners erase the territorial caliph**e that had inflicted unspeakable human rights abuses. Just as importantly, Trump also announced the withdrawal of U.S. forces from Syria, placing the primary burden for ongoing stability upon regional powers Israel, Saudi Arabia and the UAE.

- Increasing Minority Jobs – If Trump is actually r****t, as biased mainstream media “journalists” often claim, he’s remarkably bad at it, because people of color have thrived under the pro-growth policies of the Trump Boom. Black joblessness in 2018 reached the lowest levels ever recorded. For Hispanics, in history there have been a total of 14 months with a jobless rate under 5 percent -- and 13 of those months have unfolded under the leadership of President Trump. Small business dynamism is particularly crucial for minority advancement, and small business surveys report optimism among entrepreneurs at record highs in 2018.

- Record American Oil Production – In 2018, the U.S. surpassed Russia and Saudi Arabia to become the world’s largest producer of crude oil. Through aggressive regulatory relief and pro-energy moves like green-lighting the Keystone XL pipeline, President Trump paved the way for an independent energy future.

Now I'm sure you're going to go ahead and tell me that Obama did all these things...but real, every day average Americans know that is a joke because they are experiencing the benefits NOW, not two years ago.