I was too civil with a recent thread. Do you agree or disagree that refusing to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance is un-Patriotic
Mar 13, 2019 22:53:01 #
I will make it one-sided. It naturally invites comments.
One of the enduring traditions in public education is the recitation of the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance before the start of class, often while standing with one hand on the heart. But given both the protections of individuals and restraints on the government (public schools are government entities) required by the First Amendment to the Constitution, do students or school staff have to participate in the Pledge? And can students be reprimanded or retaliated against for refusing (sitting or "taking a knee"), in protest or for other personal reasons? The short answer is "no," but there's a long history of jurisprudence leading to that conclusion.
In West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette (1943), the Supreme Court ruled that requiring the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools violated the First and Fourteenth Amendments. The case grew out of West Virginia's passage of legislation requiring the pledge and f**g-saluting. Lawmakers had intended them to be part of instruction on civics, history, and the Constitution, and they defined noncompliance as insubordination that was punishable by expulsion from school. Parents of expelled students were also subject to fines. After Jehovah's Witnesses students were expelled, their parents brought suit contending that the law infringed upon their religious beliefs, which they said required them not to engage in these secular practices.
One of the enduring traditions in public education is the recitation of the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance before the start of class, often while standing with one hand on the heart. But given both the protections of individuals and restraints on the government (public schools are government entities) required by the First Amendment to the Constitution, do students or school staff have to participate in the Pledge? And can students be reprimanded or retaliated against for refusing (sitting or "taking a knee"), in protest or for other personal reasons? The short answer is "no," but there's a long history of jurisprudence leading to that conclusion.
In West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette (1943), the Supreme Court ruled that requiring the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools violated the First and Fourteenth Amendments. The case grew out of West Virginia's passage of legislation requiring the pledge and f**g-saluting. Lawmakers had intended them to be part of instruction on civics, history, and the Constitution, and they defined noncompliance as insubordination that was punishable by expulsion from school. Parents of expelled students were also subject to fines. After Jehovah's Witnesses students were expelled, their parents brought suit contending that the law infringed upon their religious beliefs, which they said required them not to engage in these secular practices.
Mar 13, 2019 23:00:32 #
One should either pledge Allegiance to one's country or become a non-citizen (no V****g rights or entitlements)...
Mar 13, 2019 23:02:34 #
rumitoid wrote:
I will make it one-sided. It naturally invites com... (show quote)
So the Pledge is not "required", but it must be offered to all who wish to honor the nation and its heritage IMHO.
Mar 13, 2019 23:06:20 #
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
One should either pledge Allegiance to one's country or become a non-citizen (no V****g rights or entitlements)...
Why?
Mar 13, 2019 23:08:41 #
Manning345 wrote:
So the Pledge is not "required", but it must be offered to all who wish to honor the nation and its heritage IMHO.
The point is that it was not offered but demanded of students. Refusing to say it does not dishonor the nation or its heritage.
Mar 13, 2019 23:17:09 #
rumitoid wrote:
Why?
Why should one be required to pledge Allegiance to one's country?
Seriously....
Should one enjoy the benefits of one's country without the wilingness to uphold the laws and values of one's country?
Whether the pledge should be made daily can be debated... Once a year on national day is enough in my mind... But individuals like Jehovah Witnesses should not be allowed to v**e (most don't to my knowledge) or partake in any government entitlements...
Mar 13, 2019 23:35:17 #
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Why should one be required to pledge Allegiance to one's country?
Seriously....
Should one enjoy the benefits of one's country without the wilingness to uphold the laws and values of one's country?
Whether the pledge should be made daily can be debated... Once a year on national day is enough in my mind... But individuals like Jehovah Witnesses should not be allowed to v**e (most don't to my knowledge) or partake in any government entitlements...
Seriously....
Should one enjoy the benefits of one's country without the wilingness to uphold the laws and values of one's country?
Whether the pledge should be made daily can be debated... Once a year on national day is enough in my mind... But individuals like Jehovah Witnesses should not be allowed to v**e (most don't to my knowledge) or partake in any government entitlements...
Personally I believe one should not be forced to say the pledge in it's amended form, remove the phrase "under god" and then I may support it being obligatory. The first amendment gives us the freedom of religion and if your chosen religion is that you have none at all, you should be free to practice your "religion" and not be forced to practice any other religion.
Mar 14, 2019 00:06:16 #
rumitoid wrote:
Why?
We don't pledge allegiance to our country...we pledge allegiance to our f**g.
We Pledge allegiance, to the f**g, of the Untied States of America. And to the republic, for witch it stands, one nation under God. Indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Mar 14, 2019 00:29:55 #
EmilyD wrote:
We don't pledge allegiance to our country...we pledge allegiance to our f**g.
We Pledge allegiance, to the f**g, of the Untied States of America. And to the republic, for witch it stands, one nation under God. Indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
We Pledge allegiance, to the f**g, of the Untied States of America. And to the republic, for witch it stands, one nation under God. Indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
And what does this part mean?
EmilyD wrote:
And to the republic, for witch it stands
Mar 14, 2019 01:06:42 #
the people...Us Americans.
One Nation under God comes from our the founders of America...their words when they came here. and Indivisible means they wanted to stay together under God, was their belief....and with Liberty and Justice was their way of trying to gain freedom from tyranny.
One Nation under God comes from our the founders of America...their words when they came here. and Indivisible means they wanted to stay together under God, was their belief....and with Liberty and Justice was their way of trying to gain freedom from tyranny.
Mar 14, 2019 01:17:18 #
EmilyD wrote:
the people...Us Americans.
It's a reference to our nation and it's people too I am sure but it is pledging allegiance to this nation.
Mar 14, 2019 01:20:12 #
Common_Sense_Matters wrote:
It's a reference to our nation and it's people too I am sure but it is pledging allegiance to this nation.
allegiance to what this Nation is about...not the nation.
Mar 14, 2019 02:04:30 #
Common_Sense_Matters wrote:
Personally I believe one should not be forced to say the pledge in it's amended form, remove the phrase "under god" and then I may support it being obligatory. The first amendment gives us the freedom of religion and if your chosen religion is that you have none at all, you should be free to practice your "religion" and not be forced to practice any other religion.
Should we also remove these phrases from the Declaration of Independence?
...”Laws of Nature and of Nature's God “...
....”endowed by their Creator”...
...”appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world”...
...”protection of Divine Providence”...
Mar 14, 2019 03:07:17 #
The Critical Critic wrote:
Should we also remove these phrases from the Declaration of Independence?
...”Laws of Nature and of Nature's God “...
....”endowed by their Creator”...
...”appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world”...
...”protection of Divine Providence”...
...”Laws of Nature and of Nature's God “...
....”endowed by their Creator”...
...”appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world”...
...”protection of Divine Providence”...
The phrase "under god" was not initially in the pledge of allegiance, it was added AFTER it was initially written so removing it isn't really altering the original is it? While ideally, to keep in the spirit of the first amendment, those lines in the Declaration of Independence should not have been written with those references, I do not agree with altering such an important historical document, it would devalue it in my opinion, so no, we shouldn't alter it but I am all for reverting the pledge to it's original form.
Mar 14, 2019 03:18:28 #
Common_Sense_Matters wrote:
The phrase "under god" was not initially... (show quote)
I could go either way... But nothing is preventing the student (or anyone else for that matter) from skipping over that part...
Pledging allegiance to one's Nation should never be an issue...
Also... If one does not believe in God then uttering the words becomes merely symbolic...
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