The Critical Critic Loc: Turtle Island

You’re welcome. I think it’s an important distinction. After all, the Framers had a keen interest in protecting the country from foreign infiltration.

Smedley_buzkill

But if a literalist says "The fourteenth says that ALL People born or naturalized...." It makes no distinction. But the 14th has a history. The Civil Rights Act of 1866 stated that

"Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That all persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States; and such citizens, of every race and color, without regard to any previous condition of s***ery or involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall have the same right, in every State and Territory in the United States, to make and enforce contracts, to sue, be parties, and give evidence, to inherit, purchase, lease, sell, hold, and convey real and personal property, and to full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings for the security of person and property, as is enjoyed by white citizens, and shall be subject to like punishment, pains, and penalties, and to none other, any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, to the contrary notwithstanding."
The Act was vetoed by then president Johnson and the veto was promptly overridden, and 2 months later the Act became the 14th Amendment to preclude further executive interference. Senator Jacob Howard of MI, who authored the citizenship section of the 14th stated that it was simply re-stating existing law, that law being the Act of 1866.
Here is the transcript of the 30th Congress that wrote the 14th Amendment. It should settle the question of jurisdiction. These are the actual statements of the authors of the Amendment recorded in the Congressional Record.


It’s now time to set the record straight once and for all as to who is actually a U.S. Citizen and who is not. Here is the actual 1866 transcript from congress during the 39th congress—

“Mr. HOWARD: I now move to take up House joint resolution No. 127.

The motion was agreed to; and the Senate, as in Committee of the Whole, resumed the consideration of the joint resolution (H.R. No. 127) proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States.

"The first amendment is to section one, declaring that all “persons born in the United States and Subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the States wherein they reside. I do not propose to say anything on that subject except that the question of citizenship has been fully discussed in this body as not to need any further elucidation, in my opinion. This amendment which I have offered is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already that every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States. This has long been a great desideratum in the jurisprudence and legislation of this country." [1]

It is clear the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment had no intention of freely giving away American citizenship to just anyone simply because they may have been born on American soil, something our courts have wrongfully assumed. But what exactly did “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” mean to the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment? Again, we are fortunate to have on record the highest authority to tell us, Sen. Lyman Trumbull, Chairman of the Judiciary Committee, author of the Thirteenth Amendment, and the one who inserted the phrase:

"[T]he provision is, that ‘all persons born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens.’ That means ‘subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof.’ What do we mean by ‘complete jurisdiction thereof?’ Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means."

Trumbull continues, “Can you sue a Navajo Indian in court? Are they in any sense subject to the complete jurisdiction of the United States? By no means. We make treaties with them, and therefore they are not subject to our jurisdiction. If they were, we wouldn’t make treaties with them…It is only those persons who come completely within our jurisdiction, who are subject to our laws, that we think of making citizens; and there can be no objection to the proposition that such persons should be citizens.[2]

Sen. Howard concurs with Trumbull’s construction:

Mr. HOWARD: "I concur entirely with the honorable Senator from Illinois [Trumbull], in holding that the word “jurisdiction,” as here employed, ought to be construed so as to imply a full and complete jurisdiction on the part of the United States, whether exercised by Congress, by the executive, or by the judicial department; that is to say, the same jurisdiction in extent and quality as applies to every citizen of the United States now."[3]

In other words, only children born to American citizens can be considered citizens of the United States since only a American citizen could enjoy the “extent and quality” of jurisdiction of an American citizen now. Sen. Johnson, speaking on the Senate floor, offers his comments and understanding of the proposed new amendment to the constitution:

"[Now], all this amendment [citizenship clause] provides is, that all persons born in the United States and not subject to some foreign Power–for that, no doubt, is the meaning of the committee who have brought the matter before us–shall be considered as citizens of the United States. That would seem to be not only a wise but a necessary provision. If there are to be citizens of the United States there should be some certain definition of what citizenship is, what has created the character of citizen as between himself and the United States, and the amendment says that citizenship may depend upon birth, and I know of no better way to give rise to citizenship than the fact of birth within the territory of the United States, born to parents who at the time were subject to the authority of the United States." [4]

No doubt in the Senate as to what the citizenship clause means as further evidenced by Sen. W. Williams:

"In one sense, all persons born within the geographical limits of the United States are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, but they are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States in every sense. Take the child of an ambassador. In one sense, that child born in the United States is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, because if that child commits the crime of murder, or commits any other crime against the laws of the country, to a certain extent he is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, but not in every respect; and so with these Indians. All persons living within a judicial district may be said, in one sense, to be subject to the jurisdiction of the court in that district, but they are not in every sense subject to the jurisdiction of the court until they are brought, by proper process, within the reach of the power of the court. I understand the words here, ‘subject to the jurisdiction of the United States,’ to mean fully and completely subject to the jurisdiction of the United States."[5]

Rep. John Bingham of Ohio, considered the father of the Fourteenth Amendment, confirms the understanding and construction the framers used in regards to birthright and jurisdiction while speaking on civil rights of citizens in the House on March 9, 1866:

[i]" find no fault with the introductory clause [S 61 Bill], which is simply declaratory of what is written in the Constitution, that every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen…"[6]

debeda

they did! Sure wish we would enforce same.....

debeda

[quote=Smedley_buzk**l]But if a literalist says "The fourteenth says that ALL People born or naturalized...." It makes no distinction. But the 14th has a history. The Civil Rights Act of 1866 stated that

"Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That all persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States; and such citizens, of every race and color, without regard to any previous condition of s***ery or involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall have the same right, in every State and Territory in the United States, to make and enforce contracts, to sue, be parties, and give evidence, to inherit, purchase, lease, sell, hold, and convey real and personal property, and to full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings for the security of person and property, as is enjoyed by white citizens, and shall be subject to like punishment, pains, and penalties, and to none other, any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, to the contrary notwithstanding."
The Act was vetoed by then president Johnson and the veto was promptly overridden, and 2 months later the Act became the 14th Amendment to preclude further executive interference. Senator Jacob Howard of MI, who authored the citizenship section of the 14th stated that it was simply re-stating existing law, that law being the Act of 1866.
Here is the transcript of the 30th Congress that wrote the 14th Amendment. It should settle the question of jurisdiction. These are the actual statements of the authors of the Amendment recorded in the Congressional Record.


It’s now time to set the record straight once and for all as to who is actually a U.S. Citizen and who is not. Here is the actual 1866 transcript from congress during the 39th congress—

“Mr. HOWARD: I now move to take up House joint resolution No. 127.

The motion was agreed to; and the Senate, as in Committee of the Whole, resumed the consideration of the joint resolution (H.R. No. 127) proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States.

"The first amendment is to section one, declaring that all “persons born in the United States and Subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the States wherein they reside. I do not propose to say anything on that subject except that the question of citizenship has been fully discussed in this body as not to need any further elucidation, in my opinion. This amendment which I have offered is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already that every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States. This has long been a great desideratum in the jurisprudence and legislation of this country." [1]

It is clear the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment had no intention of freely giving away American citizenship to just anyone simply because they may have been born on American soil, something our courts have wrongfully assumed. But what exactly did “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” mean to the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment? Again, we are fortunate to have on record the highest authority to tell us, Sen. Lyman Trumbull, Chairman of the Judiciary Committee, author of the Thirteenth Amendment, and the one who inserted the phrase:

"[T]he provision is, that ‘all persons born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens.’ That means ‘subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof.’ What do we mean by ‘complete jurisdiction thereof?’ Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means."

Trumbull continues, “Can you sue a Navajo Indian in court? Are they in any sense subject to the complete jurisdiction of the United States? By no means. We make treaties with them, and therefore they are not subject to our jurisdiction. If they were, we wouldn’t make treaties with them…It is only those persons who come completely within our jurisdiction, who are subject to our laws, that we think of making citizens; and there can be no objection to the proposition that such persons should be citizens.[2]

Sen. Howard concurs with Trumbull’s construction:

Mr. HOWARD: "I concur entirely with the honorable Senator from Illinois [Trumbull], in holding that the word “jurisdiction,” as here employed, ought to be construed so as to imply a full and complete jurisdiction on the part of the United States, whether exercised by Congress, by the executive, or by the judicial department; that is to say, the same jurisdiction in extent and quality as applies to every citizen of the United States now."[3]

In other words, only children born to American citizens can be considered citizens of the United States since only a American citizen could enjoy the “extent and quality” of jurisdiction of an American citizen now. Sen. Johnson, speaking on the Senate floor, offers his comments and understanding of the proposed new amendment to the constitution:

"[Now], all this amendment [citizenship clause] provides is, that all persons born in the United States and not subject to some foreign Power–for that, no doubt, is the meaning of the committee who have brought the matter before us–shall be considered as citizens of the United States. That would seem to be not only a wise but a necessary provision. If there are to be citizens of the United States there should be some certain definition of what citizenship is, what has created the character of citizen as between himself and the United States, and the amendment says that citizenship may depend upon birth, and I know of no better way to give rise to citizenship than the fact of birth within the territory of the United States, born to parents who at the time were subject to the authority of the United States." [4]

No doubt in the Senate as to what the citizenship clause means as further evidenced by Sen. W. Williams:

"In one sense, all persons born within the geographical limits of the United States are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, but they are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States in every sense. Take the child of an ambassador. In one sense, that child born in the United States is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, because if that child commits the crime of murder, or commits any other crime against the laws of the country, to a certain extent he is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, but not in every respect; and so with these Indians. All persons living within a judicial district may be said, in one sense, to be subject to the jurisdiction of the court in that district, but they are not in every sense subject to the jurisdiction of the court until they are brought, by proper process, within the reach of the power of the court. I understand the words here, ‘subject to the jurisdiction of the United States,’ to mean fully and completely subject to the jurisdiction of the United States."[5]

Rep. John Bingham of Ohio, considered the father of the Fourteenth Amendment, confirms the understanding and construction the framers used in regards to birthright and jurisdiction while speaking on civil rights of citizens in the House on March 9, 1866:

[i]" find no fault with the introductory clause [S 61 Bill], which is simply declaratory of what is written in the Constitution, that every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen…"[6][/quote]

Terrific, factual information. How in the world do our legislators and judges manage to muddy such clarity?

Smedley_buzkill

That's what politicians do. Do you think these douche bags could handle a real job?

debeda

You do have a point. My bad

The Critical Critic Loc: Turtle Island

[quote=Smedley_buzk**l]But if a literalist says "The fourteenth says that ALL People born or naturalized...." It makes no distinction. But the 14th has a history. The Civil Rights Act of 1866 stated that

"Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That all persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States; and such citizens, of every race and color, without regard to any previous condition of s***ery or involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall have the same right, in every State and Territory in the United States, to make and enforce contracts, to sue, be parties, and give evidence, to inherit, purchase, lease, sell, hold, and convey real and personal property, and to full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings for the security of person and property, as is enjoyed by white citizens, and shall be subject to like punishment, pains, and penalties, and to none other, any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, to the contrary notwithstanding."
The Act was vetoed by then president Johnson and the veto was promptly overridden, and 2 months later the Act became the 14th Amendment to preclude further executive interference. Senator Jacob Howard of MI, who authored the citizenship section of the 14th stated that it was simply re-stating existing law, that law being the Act of 1866.
Here is the transcript of the 30th Congress that wrote the 14th Amendment. It should settle the question of jurisdiction. These are the actual statements of the authors of the Amendment recorded in the Congressional Record.


It’s now time to set the record straight once and for all as to who is actually a U.S. Citizen and who is not. Here is the actual 1866 transcript from congress during the 39th congress—

“Mr. HOWARD: I now move to take up House joint resolution No. 127.

The motion was agreed to; and the Senate, as in Committee of the Whole, resumed the consideration of the joint resolution (H.R. No. 127) proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States.

"The first amendment is to section one, declaring that all “persons born in the United States and Subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the States wherein they reside. I do not propose to say anything on that subject except that the question of citizenship has been fully discussed in this body as not to need any further elucidation, in my opinion. This amendment which I have offered is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already that every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States. This has long been a great desideratum in the jurisprudence and legislation of this country." [1]

It is clear the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment had no intention of freely giving away American citizenship to just anyone simply because they may have been born on American soil, something our courts have wrongfully assumed. But what exactly did “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” mean to the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment? Again, we are fortunate to have on record the highest authority to tell us, Sen. Lyman Trumbull, Chairman of the Judiciary Committee, author of the Thirteenth Amendment, and the one who inserted the phrase:

"[T]he provision is, that ‘all persons born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens.’ That means ‘subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof.’ What do we mean by ‘complete jurisdiction thereof?’ Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means."

Trumbull continues, “Can you sue a Navajo Indian in court? Are they in any sense subject to the complete jurisdiction of the United States? By no means. We make treaties with them, and therefore they are not subject to our jurisdiction. If they were, we wouldn’t make treaties with them…It is only those persons who come completely within our jurisdiction, who are subject to our laws, that we think of making citizens; and there can be no objection to the proposition that such persons should be citizens.[2]

Sen. Howard concurs with Trumbull’s construction:

Mr. HOWARD: "I concur entirely with the honorable Senator from Illinois [Trumbull], in holding that the word “jurisdiction,” as here employed, ought to be construed so as to imply a full and complete jurisdiction on the part of the United States, whether exercised by Congress, by the executive, or by the judicial department; that is to say, the same jurisdiction in extent and quality as applies to every citizen of the United States now."[3]

In other words, only children born to American citizens can be considered citizens of the United States since only a American citizen could enjoy the “extent and quality” of jurisdiction of an American citizen now. Sen. Johnson, speaking on the Senate floor, offers his comments and understanding of the proposed new amendment to the constitution:

"[Now], all this amendment [citizenship clause] provides is, that all persons born in the United States and not subject to some foreign Power–for that, no doubt, is the meaning of the committee who have brought the matter before us–shall be considered as citizens of the United States. That would seem to be not only a wise but a necessary provision. If there are to be citizens of the United States there should be some certain definition of what citizenship is, what has created the character of citizen as between himself and the United States, and the amendment says that citizenship may depend upon birth, and I know of no better way to give rise to citizenship than the fact of birth within the territory of the United States, born to parents who at the time were subject to the authority of the United States." [4]

No doubt in the Senate as to what the citizenship clause means as further evidenced by Sen. W. Williams:

"In one sense, all persons born within the geographical limits of the United States are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, but they are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States in every sense. Take the child of an ambassador. In one sense, that child born in the United States is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, because if that child commits the crime of murder, or commits any other crime against the laws of the country, to a certain extent he is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, but not in every respect; and so with these Indians. All persons living within a judicial district may be said, in one sense, to be subject to the jurisdiction of the court in that district, but they are not in every sense subject to the jurisdiction of the court until they are brought, by proper process, within the reach of the power of the court. I understand the words here, ‘subject to the jurisdiction of the United States,’ to mean fully and completely subject to the jurisdiction of the United States."[5]

Rep. John Bingham of Ohio, considered the father of the Fourteenth Amendment, confirms the understanding and construction the framers used in regards to birthright and jurisdiction while speaking on civil rights of citizens in the House on March 9, 1866:

[i]" find no fault with the introductory clause [S 61 Bill], which is simply declaratory of what is written in the Constitution, that every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen…"[6][/quote]
____________________________________
I was familiar with most, if not all of that, and agree. I think what muddied the clarity was some of the language. As you can see, sometimes the only word used is “citizen” and at other times, citizen, is preceded by the words “natural born”. But if you noticed, each time “natural born” was used, the sentence contained the word “parents” - plural.

In the interest of time, and clarification, what was it specifically that I said, that prompted you to post all that excellent historical information? Please, bear with me, I have been awake for just about 30 now, I’m not as sharp as my usual self.

Smedley_buzkill

I am sick and tired of hearing bulls**t that wetbacks can sneak into this country, or overstay a visa, and as soon as their esposa, amiga, or rent-a-puta drops a brat on US soil the child has birth citizenship. I read an article recently written by an RN in an El Paso TX hospital in which she claimed that more than half the births at that hospital are to i******s.
Every year, more than 300,000 children are born to people in this country illegally. This cannot continue. Remove birth citizenship and start jailing people who hire i******s and remove the incentive.
http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/2010/08/09/60000-babies-born-to-non-citizens-in-texas-every-year/

The Critical Critic Loc: Turtle Island

Ohhh ok, I think I understand now. Personally, I make a distinction between birth citizenship, and birthright citizenship. To me, birth citizenship is something granted to you by a parent. Prior to, I think, 1935, maybe 1934, citizenship could only come from the father. Since then, the law recognizes the mother to confer citizenship as well. Such as the case with Ted Cruz, as you stated.

Birthright citizenship, is absolute bulls**t. For reasons you so eloquently stated.

moldyoldy

I have read that Florida is a destination for Chinese birth tourists. They want dual citizenship for their children, so that they have options.

Smedley_buzkill

It's also a popular destination for people from such exotic foreign lands as Noo Yawk, and Noo Joisey. Mostly I like the Chinese better.

moldyoldy

NY and NJ go there to retire in the sun.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Not dual citizenship...
Chona doesn't allow it...
They are seeking American citizenship...

China does have an amazing policy that I have not heard of in another country...
Before 18 years of age a child is recognized as Chinese (if at least one parent is Chinese ) Even if they have citizenship in another country.... This allows the children to reside in and enjoy in all of the benefits of China .... Upon reaching the age of 18 the individual must choose which nationality to retain...

My daughter currently enjoys this status...

woodguru

I have a friend who has dual citizenship, owns property on Vancouver Island, pays taxes there, banks in Canada. Grows pot here on the order of a couple hundred grand a year, pays no taxes here. When he has medical emergencies he hands the hospital a Canadian passport and pays nothing, he's more or less a parasite to the US. His US father died, he's fighting a legal dispute with his sister, and will take any money he gets back to Canada and build a house. V**es here, v**ed for Trump... this country could do without him, Lol

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

I agree...
Not because of who he v**es for...
It's troubling...