woodguru

There is a consensus on what is acceptable, these "late" a******ns are the exceptions, not the everyday rule. The hard right fights all of it, including the morning after pill and birth control. The dialog on late exceptions is made out to be rhetorical and like it is the mainstream a******n being legalized.

The right has done everything possible to make it harder and harder, and delay the process. Yeah, 12 to 16 weeks would or should be enough if it weren't for the laws in many red states where people are having to drive hours to one of the few or only clinics in the state.

Pay attention to your numbers here, solid majorities of the american people regardless of what their personal beliefs about a******n are feel that it is an individual choice that neither religiously inclined people or the government have any say in.

Rose42

So be it? People should think about that and how some rationalize the increasingly callous disregard for human life

Nickolai

There is nothing sacred about a million and half sperm on average being released on ejaculation ,triggering a horse race to an egg cell with the fastest swimmer penetrating the membrane and burying its self in the egg mixing genes and dividing in to multiple and complex cells --Its been going on since it first took place in the ancient primordial seas probably 3 billion years ago. For wh**ever reason a female needs to abort the fetus. It's her business- and no body else's but her's

Bernhard

Right. You are 100% right.

Every couple who wants a child MUST realize that there is a chance the fetus will be severely deformed, not healthy, not viable, etc. It's just a fact of life, one of life's risks.

You have NOTHING to feel guilty about.

Likely you can try again, and very likely your next effort will be successful.

You clearly will be a terrific mother.

Early in the 2016 campaign, IIRC some Republican leader asked that the Republicans just never talk about a******n. One big reason is that Roe v Wade has been the law of the land for 40+ years, and the SCOTUS is VERY unlikely to consider a change.

Another reason is that a******n should be the issue and responsibility of the mother and maybe the father, family, physicians, a religious leader but definitely NOT the government. In the balance of concerns, what other people think is just IRRELEVANT and none of their darned business.

Some cases of a******n are ugly parts of our country, culture, civilization, etc., but the overwhelming consideration is what the MOTHER wants. If for wh**ever reason she does not want the baby, then she should not be forced to have the baby. In particular, it's not good for a baby to have a mother that didn't or doesn't want, or can't take care of, the baby. Yes, some such cases are ugly, but on the balance of issues and concern, "there are two admittedly regrettable but nevertheless clearly distinguishable alternatives: On the one hand, we have a dead baby. On the other hand we have a baby its mother didn't want." For picking between these two, there are no good alternatives, and laws can't change that. Net, the rest of society should just stay the heck OUT.

Is one of the alternatives a version of murder? Maybe some people would say so. Does having the baby die cheapen life? Yes. Is the dead baby a tragedy? Yes. Does getting politicians and lawyers into the picture help? NO!

Lots of things our society does cheapen life. For something better, do more to help the mother some years before she got pregnant. In general we need a more prosperous and humane society. E.g., for Bush 43 and Obama to send thousands of lives of US blood and 7 trillion US dollars to just absurd wars in Iraq and Afghanistan took money from the pockets of all US families and pushed lots of women over the line from being a good mother to being financially unable to be a good mother.

But, politicians, including Republican ones, now including Trump, are talking about a******n. Maybe the v**e arithmetic calls for that. But it's ugly politics if only because Roe v Wade is less likely to fall than Mount Everest. The whole subject is silly and ugly because NOTHING will change.

In particular, we are NOT talking about FORCING a women to have an a******n -- no one in the US is doing that. Not so long ago, China did a LOT of that.

Ricktloml

Wow on the one hand you rightly admit that a******n is k*****g of an unborn baby and it cheapens life. Then turn around and say death for that child would be better than possible hardship. A******n has only been legal since 1973. And there are real questions about judicial activism, instead of "finding" constitutional authority for the decision. Why therefore is discussing a******n ugly, when the k*****g of over 5 MILLION babies, (mostly for convenience,) is just fine. There is a very compelling reason a******n was condemned for centuries, the sanctioned cheapening of life is not a casual or light matter.

Bernhard

It's a BAD situation. Again, once again, over again, yet again, one more time, this time just for you, in the balance of the situation, you don't count; I don't count; lawyers don't count; the governments don't count; no one counts but the mother. It's overwhelmingly "her business" and not even 1% as much
the business of anyone or everyone else.

If she is made to have the baby, then there is a big chance that she will use the old solution for an unwanted baby -- a back alley dumpster.

Another of the old solutions was to leave the baby in a basket at the side door of a convent, but no doubt that no longer works very well.

In a lot of reasonably good families, the solution was to have the mother's parents raise the baby, but we're not always talking a "reasonably good family" here, are we?

It's bad, sad, really bad, but the decision is HERS. Laws, lawyers, and governments can NOT make the situation better.

But if you want to save the situation, offer her, say, $75,000 a year plus inflation for, say, 22 years, say, in the form of an annuity, plus $50,000 a year for college, corrected for inflation, out of YOUR pocket. And right away for a start get her a nice apartment or house, furnishings, a nice SUV grocery getter, a car seat, diaper service, crib, play pen, stroller, toys, clothes, shoes, hat, coat, gloves, nurses and house keepers if she gets sick, good Ob/Gyn, pediatrician, dentist, other needed medical care, $20,000 in a starter bank account, etc.

Likely get her good professional help in how to be a good mother.

Help her pay for pre-school and kindergarten.

In case of a male baby, likely you will have to be really good as a Big Brother (since you obviously know so little about babies, I have to assume you are a man) to help the boy grow up as a good man; that might take you only 20 quality hours a week for the next, say, 30 years.

Since nearly all of education, especially K-12, is in effect heavily from the family, e.g., the classic J. Dewey, 'Democracy and Education,' likely her child will need a LOT of special education and tutoring to keep up and do well in school. E.g., the mother may not be able to read or write and may have poor or no command of English -- you'd have to make up for that, too.

The mother may need driving lessons, the basics of cooking, shopping, cleaning, and hygiene, civics, laws, e-mail usage, how to care for a pet, etc.

By the way, the apartment/house needs to be in a good school district.

In addition to all that, she may need a LOT of medical care, including mental health, for herself, to be able to be a decent mother -- if she is on alcohol or drugs, has an STD, has a mean boyfriend, is illiterate, is morbidly obese, etc.

And the mother may have had poor or no prenatal care. The baby may be addicted to drugs or already seriously damaged from drugs. Does the mother have AIDS? Hmm.

Starting to get the picture? Dev**e much of your life for the next 22+ years and turn the situation around.

Right, let's see, the $75,000 a year for just 10 years would be $750,000. For 20 years, $1,500,000. Plus the the rest. So, net present value would take a big chunk out of $3 million, maybe more. Of course, you DO actually have the $3+ million ready, don't you?

Or put the baby up for adoption -- let's not go into that likely disaster. Or, likely we're NOT talking some gorgeous, astoundingly healthy, natural blond in Minnesota, 16, cheerleader, bright, good student, who, with the captain of the football team, made a mistake some Saturday night, who could sell the baby for $100,000+ right away -- starting to get the picture?

You have some more fast, simple, easy solutions for some more of the worst US "social problems"?

Uh, while you are passing laws outlawing a******ns, why not pass some laws just outlawing poverty, drug addiction, alcoholism, stupidity, illiteracy, dysfunctional behavior, STDs, etc.? Just pass laws outlawing all the ills of society?

Uh, you didn't just arrive on earth and start to understand reality just yesterday, did you?

Sit down for this one, a big reality check: Social problems are SUPER tough to solve. Bluntly, without doubt, far and away the most effective social worker for solving social problems is -- and may I have the envelope, please? Drum roll, please. And you ARE sitting down for this, right? "Rip". And the answer is, trumpet fanfare, please -- C. Darwin. If you can do better, we will all be thrilled. You seem eager to solve the problem. Go for it. Good luck.

Ricktloml

Obviously the BABY doesn't count either. And previous to 1973 plenty of mothers had children they didn't plan for, want or could afford, gee how did they manage without the solutions you listed (just for me). Sanctioning the murder of the most helpless, and innocent of society rots and corrupts that society, maybe that doesn't count either, only the women in society should decide who lives or who dies without due process, right?

Bernhard

You are correct. While trying to be factious, actually are correct. ONLY the mother counts.

But your example is badly aimed: Darwin already took care of that. In nearly all normal cases, by the time a woman has gone to term and delivers a healthy baby, then it will be "MY BABY"!!! She will totally or nearly so be dev**ed to her baby. As the baby nurses, the two will BOND. If at all possible, they "Will make a place at life's table." something like you said. If she is poor, then our society will give her a LOT of help. E.g., the Community Health Centers and the Hill-Burton hospitals will provide medical care for free or nearly so. For expensive drugs, they may write out a prescription with a note to be taken to a certain drug store in a poor neighborhood where magic, presto, bingo, the prescription is filled for free. For Christmas, the US Marines and the FLOTUS will do a Toys for Tots show. No one wants to see a good mother unable to keep and care for her baby. So, in such a case, saying that it is 100% up to the mother is fine, your fears not withstanding.

But this does NOT cover ALL the cases. Then in those cases, again, once again, over again, yet again, one more time, this time just for you, of all the bad solutions available, when only bad solutions are available, it is best for our society to realize that we need to keep the ^&*()_+ lawyers and the &^%$#@ politicians OUT, OUT, OUT of the situation, keep OUT EVERYONE BUT the mother. You don't count. Actually in this case, the baby doesn't count either.

As I wrote, if you care so much about the baby, then adopt it.

If you care so much about the mothers, then start helping them NOW, arranging prenatal care and helping their babies until they are out of college -- chip in the $3 million or so it takes to do a good job.

If you care so much about the quality of life in our society, then take VERY seriously the plight of a mother with a seriously deformed or non viable fetus, e.g., one with spina bifida as in the fully revealing and poignant post above by the mother. For such a mother, she's got problems enough so that it's 100% HER decision and NONE of your %^&*()_ business. Same for the @#$%^& lawyers and politicians, screaming, sanctimonious moralizers looking for attention and power over the lives of others, etc.

I strongly support Trump, but this is where he is on the way to going nasty. It IS a time to turn off Hannity and Ingraham. What Newt and his wife want, I don't know, and I suspect that in public they will stay quiet on the issue.

I've explained CLEARLY, here, more than once. The mother with a spina bifida fetus explained 10^1000 times more strongly. Read those statements over and over and over until you are too weak to read them again, finally think of the MOTHER, and GIVE it UP. You are not God and can't improve on God.

Rose42

"You are not God". Neither is the mother. Most a******ns are for convenience, nothing else - whether it be money or circumstance. How callous. My mother was encouraged by doctors to have an a******n for my brother. Thankfully she didn't.

Guess what. Life isn't fair. Whereas previous generations sucked it up, stood up and made the best of what life threw at them this generation is far more selfish. The left panders to that selfishness under the guise of a right they believe exists. Even animals have more protection than unborn children.

Bernhard

Did I mention several times that it is a BAD situation? ALL the options are bad.

What is, net, even worse is getting YOU, ^&*()_ lawyers, )(*&^% politicians, and governments involved.

You CAN NOT, NOT, NOT net help.
Stay the heck OUT of motherhood.

You are having a really tough time understanding that.

Rose42

I'm not having a tough time understanding anything. Do you understand today's women are generally weaker than in previous generations? They didn't cry about their circumstances in life and they weren't victims. They stood up.

The decisions of politicians will not make or break a woman's character. It is what it is. The decisions we make either build it or they don't.

Ricktloml

It is you who would be God, or rather give the mother that role. There are always ways to improve society, cheapening life, and making women murderers isn't one of them. And you expressed your OPINION clearly, it will certainly never be mine. I value life, even one of inconvenience. I understand you fully support the death cult of a******n. I never will