Listen up. I've had sufficient dealings with your mob to differentiate between attacks, personal opinion, hateful rhetoric and a sincere, genuine interest in loving Christian dialogue. Furthermore, I'm not as offended by heretics as you might imagine. They're everywhere! I am called to defend my faith, I don't have to defend my God, He doesn't need me to defend Him but rather it is I who call on Him to defend me. And I reserve the option to choose a simple or comprehensive rebuttal or none at all. It's really not your call.

I applaud your ignorance! It is simply outstanding but not irresistible to the informed. This is a result of your intentional denying history and a valid understanding of the Christian faith.

The year 787, the place is Nicea, the occasion is the 7th Oecumenical Council. The cause - iconoclasm. The reason? Overzealous overscrupulous religious fanatics claim religious icons in whatever form are graven images. You might educate yourself what transpired and the conclusion that Council reached. Simple reasoning prevailed. Since you deny history and the early Church I might suggest that if you continue to support the iconoclastic heresy be sure to destroy all photographs of your family or friends and destroy any pictures of Christ even if they are in the pages of your bible. You have a paper icon you're free to worship and interpret by any means you choose and you take great license in doing precisely that. God gave most of us six senses by which we can better understand and worship Him and Christian art does glorify God regardless of your little narrow gauge railroad's understanding. The Christian art you destroyed when you purged Europe was sinful. You replaced it with cold sterile churches.


One of the senses it seems to me that you might be a quart low on is common sense, wisdom. In the final analysis, I don't really care what you personally think or believe except when you spread error. Rub out that last remark. I don't have the time or the inclination to correct how you use Satan's tactics to spread your particular version of the Christian faith. You do understand how free will functions right? No one has the power or authority to deny your free will, not even God. You're free to spread your hate. At least for now....

Good points. Many people go back to the Commandments to not make graven images, but they fail to continue reading, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them."
I find this interesting because G*d saw it necessary to add that qualifier.
My view....if you make a form of a human and then bow down and pray to it, worship it, or in anyway place that form on the same level of respect, love, worship or sacrifice to--elevate to godhood to supersede G*d..... you just may be violating a Commandment. Art is not evil.... photos of family is not evil, unless you pray to or worship that photo.

Good points. Many people go back to the Commandments to not make graven images, but they fail to continue reading, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them."
I find this interesting because G*d saw it necessary to add that qualifier.
My view....if you make a form of a human and then bow down and pray to it, worship it, or in anyway place that form on the same level of respect, love, worship or sacrifice to--elevate to godhood to supersede G*d..... you just may be violating a Commandment. Art is not evil.... photos of family is not evil, unless you pray to or worship that photo.

Also of interest, the first Christian churches did not have painting of Jesus, prophets, nor did they have crosses. Most of the original symbolism was an anchor, fish, and the Chi-Rho are the symbols most easily found.... but, James, the half brother of Jesus formed a church, a meeting place, and a most remarkable stone in that first recognized church in Jerusalem was found (see photo below), on top is the menorah, followed by the Star of David, and at the bottom (tied into the star) is a fish, found on funerary box funerary box to designate the dead as a follower of Jesus or on entry doors to designate a home of one who followed Jesus. No other symbols were found in that first Christian Church, dating to the time of Roman occupation.

I have much to say about the split of the two Christian churches, but that would exceed the scope of this thread and your comments.

Your inner beauty shines... always!

I lived in Greece for many years, and being in the military and raising children, we were poor as church mice.... One thing we did was visit all the "free" stuff which included churches. In the Middle Ages, the main way of portraying Christian beliefs and stories was through imagery. Most people were illiterate and church services were held in Latin. Ideas and beliefs were conveyed in wall paintings, stained glass, rood screens, statues of wood and stone, carvings on the furniture, and on the walls and the exterior. Most of these images were whitewashed or destroyed in the Protestant Reformation, especially as a result of the iconoclasm of Edward VI (1547-53) and then a century later during Civil War. Art remains at the heart, a language that transcends the written word. They are beautiful and now preserved.... Of course, trips to Italy was cheep.... less than $10 US per person.... so, we took advantage... My children remember those trips and frequently describe what they saw. A good introduction for them in religions.

Someone once described the difference between envy and jealously as if man walked into a room and kissed the most beautiful woman present that might be envy. If it happened to be your wife that would be jealously. I envy your European trips to the various historical religious edifices. My own military career was on the other side of the planet. We never made it to Europe. But we've got pictures...............

Good points. Many people go back to the Commandments to not make graven images, but they fail to continue reading, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them."
I find this interesting because G*d saw it necessary to add that qualifier.
My view....if you make a form of a human and then bow down and pray to it, worship it, or in anyway place that form on the same level of respect, love, worship or sacrifice to--elevate to godhood to supersede G*d..... you just may be violating a Commandment. Art is not evil.... photos of family is not evil, unless you pray to or worship that photo.

Also of interest, the first Christian churches did not have painting of Jesus, prophets, nor did they have crosses. Most of the original symbolism was an anchor, fish, and the Chi-Rho are the symbols most easily found.... but, James, the half brother of Jesus formed a church, a meeting place, and a most remarkable stone in that first recognized church in Jerusalem was found (see photo below), on top is the menorah, followed by the Star of David, and at the bottom (tied into the star) is a fish, found on funerary box funerary box to designate the dead as a follower of Jesus or on entry doors to designate a home of one who followed Jesus. No other symbols were found in that first Christian Church, dating to the time of Roman occupation.

I have much to say about the split of the two Christian churches, but that would exceed the scope of this thread and your comments.

A Messianic Seal from the Christian church in ancient Jerusalem has been rediscovered after 2,000 years. This ancient symbol was found on Mount Zion. It is believed to have been created and used by the Jewish believers who called themselves Nazarenes in the first Messianic Church. Three companies -- Olim Creative Products of Tiberias, News About Israel (NAI) of Jerusalem, and Christian Floral Delivery of Colorado -- jointly announced the discovery of this ancient symbol, which has been copyrighted by NAI.


It consists of three integrated symbols: a menorah at the top, a star of David in the middle, and a fish at the bottom. In each of the renditions of the three-part symbol the star is created by interlacing the stand of the menorah with the tail of the fish. The Messianic Seal was found etched or inscribed on eight ancient artifacts. The artifacts were presented to Ludwig Schneider, editor in chief of NAI's magazine Israel Today, in 1990.

They came from Tech Otecus, an elderly monk who lived as a hermit in the Old City of Jerusalem. Otecus said that in the 1960's he had personally excavated about 40 artifacts bearing the Messianic Seal from an ancient grotto located in the immediate vicinity of the Upper Room on Mount Zion.


Commenting on what he characterized as the "monumental importance" of this archaeological discovery, Fischer said, "Beyond the historical background of the Nazarenes, the first Jewish believers who founded the Jerusalem Church, the Messianic Seal itself proclaims to the world the pervasive Jewishness of Jesus Christ and the decidedly Jewish foundation and roots of the church founded in His name.

The Messianic Seal of the Jerusalem Church," Fischer continued, "strikes at the very roots of anti-Semitism while proclaiming a compelling message that restores unity: Jew with Jew, and Jew with Gentile. The importance of this discovery cannot be minimized. The Messianic Seal is not only just the key to understanding the Dead Sea Scrolls, it can and should shake the foundations of the church and orthodox Judaism with its incredible message of unity and love. It breaks down barriers that have existed for millennia and points the way toward restoration."


This piece bears an etched version of the Messianic Seal with a Taw (the last letter in the ancient Hebrew alphabet that looks exactly like a sign of the cross) in the eye of the fish symbol, as well as the ancient Aramaic lettering proclaiming the use of this artifact as a stand to hold a vial of anointing oil. The ancient Aramaic is transliterated as, "La Shemen Ruehon" (For the Oil of the Spirit). Another of the eight artifacts is a small, almost intact, vial which could well have sat on top of the marble stand.

Most people readily recognize that the Star of David, the national symbol of Israel, is apparent in the symbol. However, what is less intuitive is that the Star of David is NOT an additional or separate part of the overall symbol.... it is rather MADE by the combination of two other symbols.


This symbol does give us an understanding, visually, of how the EARLY church viewed itself. When we understand that this was a prominent SYMBOL for Messianic followers of Jesus (as opposed to the more modern Christian use of the fish by itself), we may infer their understanding that Gentile believers were grafted into and were spiritually a part of Israel by means of faith in Yeshua of Nazareth, the Son of God.


The "covenant" people of God (i.e. ISRAEL), now BOTH Jewish and Gentile believers in the Messiah could be part of the SAME FAMILY of FAITH, the SAME INHERITANCE, and the SAME OLIVE TREE by the CROSS.


Paul says that we (Gentiles) have been BROUGHT NEAR by the blood of Messiah... we are no longer STRANGERS and FOREIGNERS of the household of God (the Children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob). Now, we are fellow citizens that are being fitted into the holy temple that is founded upon the prophets, apostles, and Jesus the Messiah Himself (who are ALL Jewish).

God has called (the predominantly Gentile church) to come along side those of Israel who do not believe to intercede for them, witness to them of Jesus as the Messiah, help materially, and bless them till they find their restoration as a nation of priests unto the Lord. It vitally re-establishes the fact that the "CHURCH of Jesus" should be the strongest ally of the Jewish people and Israel itself--especially given the world tide against them.


It reminds we who are Gentiles that we are grafted as a "wild" BRANCH into a Jewish vine. We did not replace the vine--and, more importantly, not ALL the Jewish branches have fallen off either, only some...

(Romans 11:11-24) Some branches have remained, all throughout history, and many Jewish people today are embracing Jesus (Yeshua) as their Messiah.

Gentile believers in the Jewish Messiah have been BROUGHT NEAR, MADE MEMBERS of the COMMONWEALTH of ISRAEL (the HOUSEHOLD OF GOD), by faith in Jesus. This symbol does give an understanding, visually, of how the EARLY church viewed itself. When we understand that this was a prominent SYMBOL for Messianic followers of Jesus (as opposed to the more modern Christian use of the fish by itself), we may infer their understanding that Gentile believers were grafted into and were spiritually a part of Israel by means of faith in Yeshua of Nazareth, the Son of God.

Now BOTH Jewish and Gentile believers in the Messiah could be part of the same family of faith by the CROSS. Paul says that Gentile believers have been BROUGHT NEAR by the blood of Messiah... no longer STRANGERS and FOREIGNERS of the household of God (the Children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), but now are fellow citizens that are being fitted into the holy temple that is founded upon the prophets, apostles, and Jesus the Messiah Himself (who are ALL Jewish).

The church has not "replaced" Israel in God's operation and promises. Instead, God has called (the predominantly Gentile church to come along side those of Israel who do not believe to intercede for them, witness to them of Jesus as the Messiah, help materially, and bless them till they find their restoration as a nation of priests unto the Lord. It vitally re-establishes the fact that the "CHURCH of Jesus" should be the strongest ally of the Jewish people and Israel itself--especially given the world tide against them.

It reminds all Gentiles that they are grafted as a "wild" BRANCH into a Jewish vine, and did not replace the vine--and, more importantly, not ALL the Jewish branches have fallen off either, only some... (Romans 11:11-24) Some branches have remained, all throughout history, and many Jewish people today are embracing Jesus (Yeshua) as their Messiah.

Jewish believers in the Jewish Messiah have been BROUGHT to true fulfillment of the law by their faith in Jesus as well. Both groups (as Paul says further in Romans) are under the condemnation of sin and both groups need salvation by faith in Jesus, the Messiah, based on His atoning work.

It is what Paul also calls the "One New Man" that this symbol of the "early" (predominantly Jewish) church so clearly illustrates. Gentile believers have become a PART of the same spiritual heritage that Israel has... their spiritual roots are NOT in Rome, Tulsa, Colorado Springs, or Constantinople... it is in JERUSALEM!