Abram fathered one son..... one he prayed and asked G*d to provide because "O Lord God, what will you give me, for I continue childless and the heir of my house is [my servant] Eliezer of Damascus?" And Abram said, "You have given me no offspring, and so a s***e born in my house is to be my heir." And G*d responded "This man shall not be your heir; no one but your own issue shall be your heir." And then G*d promised him children with his wife. Then Sarai got this grand idea to use Hagar as a surrogate mother... a woman who was a s***e became Abram's concubine to give birth to a child to ensure inheritance. But, Hagar tried to push Sarai out, to take her position as the wife to Abram. And so it goes that Hagar ran away. It was not G*d that found her at the well, but a messenger (an angel) and that messenger made promises to Hagar. And so, the first deception began.... this messenger did not introduce its self, but announced "I will greatly multiply your offspring that they cannot be counted for multitude." Hagar called this messenger a god, "You are Elroi [god of seeing]." Recall that she was Egyptian so most probably was not mono-theological.... The bible does say that she had not accepted the G*d of Abram.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said, "I am G*d almighty; walk before me and be blameless. And I will make my covenant between me and you, and will make you exceedingly numerous." Then Abram fell on his face; and G*d said to him, "As for me, this is my covenant with you; you shall be the ancestor of a multitude of nations. No longer shall your name be Abram, but your name shall be Abraham...

G*d said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. I will bless her, and moreover, I will give you a son by her."

So, G*d forgave Abram for having a child with a concubine..... forgiveness so complete that G*d gave him a new life with a new name. He forgave Sarai for her lack of faith, and gave her a new life with a new name. And then G*d bless them by giving them their first and only child.

As for Hagar, well she was made to leave with her child. And when she ran out of food and water, a messenger, assumability Hagar's Elroi [god of seeing], again came to her..."Come, lift up the boy and hold him fast with your hand, for I will make a great nation of him." Notice, this was not G*d who made this promise, but a messenger.

The great nation of Abraham came from Sarah's child and the children born after Sarah's death to Abraham's second wife, Keturah. And Keturah took the religion of Abraham and was the mother of the black Jews.

I do not understand why you briefly brought up Abram and Abraham. Other than you are trying to validate Islam, which I did not think was part of your initial concern.... but rather I saw your concern was the Jewish G*d being "wrathful and vengeful." Do you wish to expand the perimeter to that of Islam and the Jesus?

"Abraham fathered two sons..." No, this is not accurate. As you can see from above.

"Some might argue that Christ was the alternative..."
The story of Jesus comes from the new Testament, not the old.... some 42 generations after Abraham's death.

"Different children require different forms of discipline...
My wife and I discipline our daughter...
We don't wipe out our neighbors or stone her for disobedience....
I have no doubt that the Jews feel as you have stated about the Father...
Can you say the same for the various nations of Canaan?" But, you support a modern day religion/cult that still stone women and wipe out nations (or at least encourage death to America and pushing Israel into the sea), behead journalist, homosexuals by pushing them off walls, car bombings, among other examples. Take for example Mohammad, how many did he murder in the space of one decade during his eight major battles, eighteen raids, and thirty-eight military operations?

"Only if one accepts the premise that the Jews and only the Jews are His children..." We were talking about the old Testament... and during that time, religion was broken down into two parties... those who were polytheism and monotheism. Keep in mind, all those people who came out of Egypt were not all Hebrews.... and they too were accepted as G*d's children. Most notable captives of Egypt were the Hyksos and Canaanites. Recall that the bible says "mixed multitude went up also with them" and then the book of Leviticus goes into detail about how to treat those who were travelers, converts, and Israelites. So... G*d's children is not a single race, but those who accept the Father as the One True G*d.

Abram fathered one son..... one he prayed and asked G*d to provide because "O Lord God, what will you give me, for I continue childless and the heir of my house is [my servant] Eliezer of Damascus?" And Abram said, "You have given me no offspring, and so a s***e born in my house is to be my heir." And G*d responded "This man shall not be your heir; no one but your own issue shall be your heir." And then G*d promised him children with his wife. Then Sarai got this grand idea to use Hagar as a surrogate mother... a woman who was a s***e became Abram's concubine to give birth to a child to ensure inheritance. But, Hagar tried to push Sarai out, to take her position as the wife to Abram. And so it goes that Hagar ran away. It was not G*d that found her at the well, but a messenger (an angel) and that messenger made promises to Hagar. And so, the first deception began.... this messenger did not introduce its self, but announced "I will greatly multiply your offspring that they cannot be counted for multitude." Hagar called this messenger a god, "You are Elroi [god of seeing]." Recall that she was Egyptian so most probably was not mono-theological.... The bible does say that she had not accepted the G*d of Abram.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said, "I am G*d almighty; walk before me and be blameless. And I will make my covenant between me and you, and will make you exceedingly numerous." Then Abram fell on his face; and G*d said to him, "As for me, this is my covenant with you; you shall be the ancestor of a multitude of nations. No longer shall your name be Abram, but your name shall be Abraham...

G*d said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. I will bless her, and moreover, I will give you a son by her."

So, G*d forgave Abram for having a child with a concubine..... forgiveness so complete that G*d gave him a new life with a new name. He forgave Sarai for her lack of faith, and gave her a new life with a new name. And then G*d bless them by giving them their first and only child.

As for Hagar, well she was made to leave with her child. And when she ran out of food and water, a messenger, assumability Hagar's Elroi [god of seeing], again came to her..."Come, lift up the boy and hold him fast with your hand, for I will make a great nation of him." Notice, this was not G*d who made this promise, but a messenger.

The great nation of Abraham came from Sarah's child and the children born after Sarah's death to Abraham's second wife, Keturah. And Keturah took the religion of Abraham and was the mother of the black Jews.

I do not understand why you briefly brought up Abram and Abraham. Other than you are trying to validate Islam, which I did not think was part of your initial concern.... but rather I saw your concern was the Jewish G*d being "wrathful and vengeful." Do you wish to expand the perimeter to that of Islam and the Jesus?

"Abraham fathered two sons..." No, this is not accurate. As you can see from above.

"Some might argue that Christ was the alternative..."
The story of Jesus comes from the new Testament, not the old.... some 42 generations after Abraham's death.

"Different children require different forms of discipline...
My wife and I discipline our daughter...
We don't wipe out our neighbors or stone her for disobedience....
I have no doubt that the Jews feel as you have stated about the Father...
Can you say the same for the various nations of Canaan?" But, you support a modern day religion/cult that still stone women and wipe out nations (or at least encourage death to America and pushing Israel into the sea), behead journalist, homosexuals by pushing them off walls, car bombings, among other examples. Take for example Mohammad, how many did he murder in the space of one decade during his eight major battles, eighteen raids, and thirty-eight military operations?

"Only if one accepts the premise that the Jews and only the Jews are His children..." We were talking about the old Testament... and during that time, religion was broken down into two parties... those who were polytheism and monotheism. Keep in mind, all those people who came out of Egypt were not all Hebrews.... and they too were accepted as G*d's children. Most notable captives of Egypt were the Hyksos and Canaanites. Recall that the bible says "mixed multitude went up also with them" and then the book of Leviticus goes into detail about how to treat those who were travelers, converts, and Israelites. So... G*d's children is not a single race, but those who accept the Father as the One True G*d.

In regards to Abraham and his history... Are you quoting from the Torah or the Old Testament?


Quote:
"I do not understand why you briefly brought up Abram and Abraham. Other than you are trying to validate Islam, which I did not think was part of your initial concern.... "

You brought him (abraham) up in the post prior to my response....
The premise of my argument is that Islam is one of the three Abrahamic religions and that Allah and God are the same entity...


Quote:
"but rather I saw your concern was the Jewish G*d being "wrathful and vengeful." Do you wish to expand the perimeter to that of Islam and the Jesus? "

I was responding to your statement that God and Allah have different characteristics...


Quote:
""Some might argue that Christ was the alternative..."
The story of Jesus comes from the new Testament, not the old.... some 42 generations after Abraham's death."

Correct... We are discussing the three religions and their relationship/perspective to God...


Quote:
"But, you support a modern day religion/cult that still stone women and wipe out nations (or at least encourage death to America and pushing Israel into the sea), behead journalist, homosexuals by pushing them off walls, car bombings, among other examples. Take for example Mohammad, how many did he murder in the space of one decade during his eight major battles, eighteen raids, and thirty-eight military operations? "

Where and when have I ever shown support for these actions?
All faiths have members who commit crimes in their name....
Take for example Moses and Joshua and David.... How many did they slaughter in their time?
Perhaps Judiasm and Islam have more in common with each other than with Christianity? (just a musing)

Quote:
"So... G*d's children is not a single race, but those who accept the Father as the One True G*d."

Correct.... Jews, Christians and Muslims...

Quote: In regards to Abraham and his history... Are you quoting from the Torah or the Old Testament?

Hebrew text, written in Hebrew and for the New Testiment I am using text written in two languages; Latin and Greek.


Quote: You brought him (abraham) up in the post prior to my response....
The premise of my argument is that Islam is one of the three Abrahamic religions and that Allah and God are the same entity...

No, see page 2.


Quote:

I was responding to your statement that God and Allah have different characteristics...

Are there differences between G*d and Allah?

Quote:
Correct... We are discussing the three religions and their relationship/perspective to God...

Initially we were discussing G*d vice allah. Then you switched to a single scope, that of a wrathful and vengeful old Testament G*d.

Quote:


Where and when have I ever shown support for these actions?
All faiths have members who commit crimes in their name....
Take for example Moses and Joshua and David.... How many did they slaughter in their time?

You support for Islam is undeniable. Religion, unless you are creating a personalized or new religion, is not a smörgåsbord. One takes the good with the bad. Moses, Joshua, and David lived around 4,000 years ago. In those times, the Israelites did k**l a large number of individuals. Moving forward, Israelites became very passive... indeed Jerusalem has been attacked 52 times, captured and recaptured 44 times, besieged 23 times, and destroyed twice.

Quote:

Perhaps Judiasm and Islam have more in common with each other than with Christianity?

I was unaware that Judas formed a parallel religion. Do enlighten me about Judiasm.... I am unfamiliar.

Quote:
Correct.... Jews, Christians and Muslims...

Jews, Christians, and muslims are not races, but rather religions. Our genes designate our race not our religions. But, there is a new study that argues that religion may be programmed into our genes. Those scientists, led by Laura Koenig, suggests genes contribute about 40% of the variability in a person’s religiousness.

The Torah or the Old Testament? In any language... It is my understanding that they are different in some ways...

Quote:
"Quote: You brought him (abraham) up in the post prior to my response....
The premise of my argument is that Islam is one of the three Abrahamic religions and that Allah and God are the same entity...

No, see page 2."

The only time I mentioned Abraham on page two was here..

"Yes... In my opinion and understanding... Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the God of Abraham..."

How is that not my above mentioned premise?


Quote:
"Initially we were discussing G*d vice allah. Then you switched to a single scope, that of a wrathful and vengeful old Testament G*d. "

My description of God from the Old Testament was in response to your contention that God of the Old Testament (Jewish) and New Testament (Christian) was loving, as compared to God of the Koran (Muslim)... Not a switch to a single scope.... An observation... I agree that God of the New Testament appears mostly loving and forgiving....


Quote:
"You support for Islam is undeniable."

Answer the question posed...
When have I ever supported those atrocities?
I am not a Muslim.. The only support I offer them is their right to practice freely and peacefully...
I challenge you to prove that I have said otherwise...(This is an actual challenge)


Quote:
" Religion, unless you are creating a personalized or new religion, is not a smörgåsbord. One takes the good with the bad. Moses, Joshua, and David lived around 4,000 years ago. In those times, the Israelites did k**l a large number of individuals. "

Exactly


Quote:
"Moving forward, Israelites became very passive... indeed Jerusalem has been attacked 52 times, captured and recaptured 44 times, besieged 23 times, and destroyed twice. "

What led to this passiveness?


Quote:

Quote:
"Perhaps Judiasm and Islam have more in common with each other than with Christianity?

I was unaware that Judas formed a parallel religion. Do enlighten me about Judiasm.... I am unfamiliar. "

My apologies.. I have always understood the Jewish religion to be refered to as Judaism...
Is this incorrect?
Do you prefer a different term?
Have you never heard of this term before?


Quote:
"Jews, Christians, and muslims are not races, but rather religions. Our genes designate our race not our religions."


Your Quote that I responded to... Followed by my response...

"Quote:
"So... G*d's children is not a single race, but those who accept the Father as the One True G*d."

Correct.... Jews, Christians and Muslims..."

So where is the contention?
I agree God's children are not a single race...

I apologize if my response offended you in anyway...
I am not sure which part was offensive... Which format is it that was found offensive?
It has never been my intention to offend...


Quote:
"I use the Tanakh, not just the Torah. T***slation to the KJV contains many problems from adding words, deleting words, or just a complete mist***slations."

Thank you... I do not have a copy of the Tanahk or the Torah...
My quotes (and knowledge) come from the KJV of the bible..


Quote:
"My Premise, I was not the individual who introduced Abraham into the conversation."

My post mentioning Abraham was in response to another poster and in no way introduced him into our conversation...
Agree to disagree?


Quote:
"It is a recognized that Silence implies consent."People tend to assume lack of response to an action as tacit approval of that action. "

I have neither advocated for the actions mentioned, Nor remained silent concerning them... They were/are atrocities....


Quote:
"What led to this passiveness?

I am assuming, and I h**e to do this, but you leave no alternative, that you are alluding to the teaching of Jesus. Is this correct? This may come as an unpleasant surprise to you, but Jesus did not teach anything that was not in the Tanakh. He did not "create" Christianity.... that distinction belongs to Saul/Paul. My Poppa wrote a thesis on this, perhaps I will d**g it out, review it, and if appropriate post it for your reading enjoyment. But, Jesus was not the reason for the passiveness of the Jew."

It was not my intent to allude to Jesus at all..
Honestly I can't imagine why his actions would effect the Jews in the least... (it is my understanding that Jews do not consider him to be the Messiah)...
It was an honest question....
I agree concerning your statement about Paul/Saul...


Quote:
"Judiasm is not the same as Judaism. Judas was, at one point, a follower of Jesus and later betrayed him. Judaism (הודה‬, Yehudah, "Judah"; via Latin and Greek) is the religion of the Jewish people."

I am confused... Honestly....
Is it Judiasm or Judaism?
I have consistently spelled it Judaism...


It has never been my intention to offend...
I have not used any derogatory words or terms..
And I have been consistent with my posting format since I joined the OPP....

I hope to retain our friendship and continue our dialogue...

Your friend, Kyle

It is not your responses that offend, but the format that is difficult for me. Not the same thing... I rarely take offense by what anyone says, even when that person tries to offend. The difficulty I experience is the bouncing between what I wrote and what you quote. Much of what is said can be lost if taken out of context.

I am sure that you do have a copy of the Tanahk, the old Testament and the Torah, first 5 books of the old Testament. You may not have them in original form... being Hebrew (Aramaic), Latin or Greek, but the King James, although has mistakes, is more than adequate.

My quotes (and knowledge) come from the KJV of the bible..



Truce is accepted as you proposed: "If this conversation puts our friendship in jeopardy I would rather abandon it...An agree to disagree sort of truce for now and the future..."