4430 Loc: Little Egypt ** Southern Illinory

The reason these and others were all for the wall was the fact they knew they weren't going to do anything about and just let it go with that , HOWEVER along comes Trump who made them the real losers and they can't for one minute let him fix what they said they were for at the time so now they are going to not let Trump win !

This is going to be very hard on them in 2020 !

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

It's true, too. Their hypocrisy is all the more laid bare when one looks at their past.

fullspinzoo

10,000 Conservative ranchers just came out against Trump's wall? I thought you were a little smarter than that. How absurd can you be? Look up 'conservation' in the dictionary. Seriously, 'f**e news'

snowbear37 Loc: MA.

Most politicians aren't used to keeping their promises (like Trump). That's one of the reasons they don't want him in office, people might get used to holding politicians accountable (they usually don't). They also don't like the fact that the country is doing well based on the policies of a "non-politician", people might wake up and figure out that most politicians do what is best for THEM, not the country.

JoyV

List wildlife whose migratory patterns will be disrupted. Last I knew a fence does not prevent birds or butterflies migration.

Why ever would the wall be built a mile inwards of the border which would cede land to Mexico?

No farm or ranchland crosses the border as Mexico does not allow foreigners to own land in their country. The only land which crosses the border is the Tohono O'odham reservation. On the US side Tohono's work in conjunction with CBP to curtail illegal activity and to rescue the many i******s who attempt desert crossings unprepared for the difficulty. Thousands of i******s are abandoned in the desert each year by the coyotes they've paid to smuggle them into the US. The Tohono O'odham yearly petition our government for reimbursement of the high costs they incur dealing with i******s including drugs and rescue efforts. But Congress is extremely slow in releasing the funds. (like virtually never) Drug cartels in Mexico have bought tribal land in Mexico from the Mexican government who ignore that the land belongs to the Tohono O'odham. In fact there have been incursions of Mexican military crossing the border on their land in support of drug smuggling.

The Tohono O'odham want to be assured of a workable plan which they can count on before getting behind a wall on their reservation. But they do want a solution to the illegal problems they have been facing.

So to reiterate my questions.
1) What migratory wildlife species will be detrimentally affected by a wall?
and
2) What plans include building a border wall a mile inside our border?

fullspinzoo

What promises has Trump not kept? And don't be telling me about things which are out of his control. Everybody on major networks know he is Mr. "promises made, promises kept". Just one article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trump-could-be-the-most-honest-president-in-modern-history/2018/10/11*67aefc5a-cd76-11e8-a3e6-44daa3d35ede_story.html?utm_term=.a5c05bbeae7a And that's the WaPo!!!! If Trump doesn't keep his promises, you should be able to rattle off a dozen or so promises Trump made during his campaign...don't you think? Pathetic statement and wh**ever cred you HAD has truly gone into the dumper. Of course, AF1, PeteyS, Lonewolf (who can barely spell his name) will agree with you, but just like YOU, won't have anything to back it up. You guys on the Left are WEAK with links, proof or evidence backing up your outright lies, but that's OK, so did Hillary, Obama and the rest of the fabricators on the Left.

fullspinzoo

So many lies, give me a dozen major lies. Be specific for once. You should be able to rattle them off, there are sooo many.

buffalo Loc: Texas

Obviously YOU aren't! Farmers and ranchers along the border in Texas are against the wall! So are conservationist.

Has anyone, including YOU, thought about, or even care about the impact a wall would have on the lifestyles and livelihood of Texas farmers and ranchers? Have you or anyone else thought about the impact a wall would have on wildlife, especially endangered species? Have you or anyone given any thought to the logistics of building a wall along a river that is subject to drying up, flooding, changing directions?

MarkC covered this best in case no one bothered to read his post:

From a concerned engineer:

“To recap: Iʼm a licensed structural and civil engineer with a MS in structural engineering from the top program in the nation and over a decade of experience on high- performance projects, and particularly of cleaning up design disasters where the factors werenʼt properly accounted for, and Iʼm an adjunct professor of structural analysis and design at UH-Downtown. I have previously been deposed as an expert witness in matters regarding proper construction of walls and the various factors associated therein, and my testimony has passed Daubert.
Am I a wall expert? I am. I am literally a court-accepted expert on walls.
Structurally and civil engineering-wise, the border wall is not a feasible project. Trump did not hire engineers to design the thing. He solicited bids from contractors, not engineers. This means itʼs not been designed by professionals. Itʼs a disaster of numerous types waiting to happen.
What disasters?
Off the top of my head...
1) It will mess with our ability to drain land in flash flooding. Anything impeding the ability of water to get where it needs to go (doesnʼt matter if there are holes in the wall or wh**ever) is going to dramatically increase the risk of flooding.
2) Messes with all kind of stuff ecologically. For all other projects, we have to do an Environmental Site Assessment, which is arduous. Theyʼre either planning to circumvent all this, or they havenʼt accounted for it yet, because thatʼs part of the design process, and this thing hasnʼt been designed. 3) The prototypes they came up with are nearly impossible to build or donʼt actually do the job. This article explains more:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.engineering.com/amp /17599.html
And so on.
The estimates provided for the cost are arrived at unreasonably. You can look for yourself at the two-year-old estimate that you see everyone citing.
http://fronterasdesk.org/sites/default/files/field/docs/2016/0 7/Bernstein-%20The%20Trump%20Wall.pdf
It does not account for rework, complexities beyond the prototype design, factors to prevent flood and environmental hazard creation, engineering redesign... Itʼs going to be higher than $50bn. The contractors will hit the government with near CONSTANT change orders. “Cost overrun” will be the name of the game. It will not be completed in Trumpʼs lifetime.
Iʼm a structural forensicist, which means Iʼm called in when things go wrong. This is a project that WILL go wrong. When projects go wrong, the original estimates are just *obliterated*. And when that happens, good luck getting it fixed, because there arenʼt that many forensicists out there to right the ship, particularly not that are willing to work on a border wall project— a large quotient of us are immigrants, and besides, we canʼt afford to bid on jobs that are this political. Weʼre small firms, and weʼre already busy, and we donʼt gamble our reputations on political footballs. So youʼd end up with a revolving door of contractors making a giant, uncoordinated muddle of things, and itʼd generally be a mess. Good money after bad. The GAO agrees with me.
And it wonʼt be effective. I could, right now, purchase a 32 foot extension ladder and weld a cheap custom saddle for the top of the proposed wall so that I can get over it. I donʼt know who they talked to about the wall design and its efficacy, but it sure as heck wasnʼt anybody with any engineering imagination.
Another thing: we are not far from the day where inexpensive drones will be able to pick up and carry someone. This will happen in the next ten years, and itʼs folly to think that the coyotes who ferry people over the border wonʼt purchase or create them. Theyʼre low enough, quiet enough, and small enough to quickly zip people over any wall we could build undetected with our current monitoring setup.
Letʼs have border security, by all means, but letʼs be smart about it. This is not smart. Itʼs not effective. Itʼs NOT cheap. The returns will be diminishing as technology advances, too. This is a ridiculous idea that will never be successfully executed and, as such, would be a monumental waste of money.“

Just a thought

fullspinzoo

Weak argument!

buffalo Loc: Texas

Did you read markC's post? The best yet:

From a concerned engineer:

“To recap: Iʼm a licensed structural and civil engineer with a MS in structural engineering from the top program in the nation and over a decade of experience on high- performance projects, and particularly of cleaning up design disasters where the factors werenʼt properly accounted for, and Iʼm an adjunct professor of structural analysis and design at UH-Downtown. I have previously been deposed as an expert witness in matters regarding proper construction of walls and the various factors associated therein, and my testimony has passed Daubert.
Am I a wall expert? I am. I am literally a court-accepted expert on walls.
Structurally and civil engineering-wise, the border wall is not a feasible project. Trump did not hire engineers to design the thing. He solicited bids from contractors, not engineers. This means itʼs not been designed by professionals. Itʼs a disaster of numerous types waiting to happen.
What disasters?
Off the top of my head...
1) It will mess with our ability to drain land in flash flooding. Anything impeding the ability of water to get where it needs to go (doesnʼt matter if there are holes in the wall or wh**ever) is going to dramatically increase the risk of flooding.
2) Messes with all kind of stuff ecologically. For all other projects, we have to do an Environmental Site Assessment, which is arduous. Theyʼre either planning to circumvent all this, or they havenʼt accounted for it yet, because thatʼs part of the design process, and this thing hasnʼt been designed. 3) The prototypes they came up with are nearly impossible to build or donʼt actually do the job. This article explains more:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.engineering.com/amp /17599.html
And so on.
The estimates provided for the cost are arrived at unreasonably. You can look for yourself at the two-year-old estimate that you see everyone citing.
http://fronterasdesk.org/sites/default/files/field/docs/2016/0 7/Bernstein-%20The%20Trump%20Wall.pdf
It does not account for rework, complexities beyond the prototype design, factors to prevent flood and environmental hazard creation, engineering redesign... Itʼs going to be higher than $50bn. The contractors will hit the government with near CONSTANT change orders. “Cost overrun” will be the name of the game. It will not be completed in Trumpʼs lifetime.
Iʼm a structural forensicist, which means Iʼm called in when things go wrong. This is a project that WILL go wrong. When projects go wrong, the original estimates are just *obliterated*. And when that happens, good luck getting it fixed, because there arenʼt that many forensicists out there to right the ship, particularly not that are willing to work on a border wall project— a large quotient of us are immigrants, and besides, we canʼt afford to bid on jobs that are this political. Weʼre small firms, and weʼre already busy, and we donʼt gamble our reputations on political footballs. So youʼd end up with a revolving door of contractors making a giant, uncoordinated muddle of things, and itʼd generally be a mess. Good money after bad. The GAO agrees with me.
And it wonʼt be effective. I could, right now, purchase a 32 foot extension ladder and weld a cheap custom saddle for the top of the proposed wall so that I can get over it. I donʼt know who they talked to about the wall design and its efficacy, but it sure as heck wasnʼt anybody with any engineering imagination.
Another thing: we are not far from the day where inexpensive drones will be able to pick up and carry someone. This will happen in the next ten years, and itʼs folly to think that the coyotes who ferry people over the border wonʼt purchase or create them. Theyʼre low enough, quiet enough, and small enough to quickly zip people over any wall we could build undetected with our current monitoring setup.
Letʼs have border security, by all means, but letʼs be smart about it. This is not smart. Itʼs not effective. Itʼs NOT cheap. The returns will be diminishing as technology advances, too. This is a ridiculous idea that will never be successfully executed and, as such, would be a monumental waste of money.“

Just a thought

JoyV

Does that include the steel bollard type which most ranchers prefer?



Actually the ecology is very well studied along the border far more so than in most areas of the US. Endangered land species are almost all isolated on either the US or Mexican side of the border. And if bollard style walls are used, small animals would have no difficulty going back and forth. An article I read said a wall would interrupt the migration of wolves. But the Sonoran wolf is only in AZ because of reintroduction. There is NO migration of wolves across the border. Occasionally Mexican bison wander north of the border. But this is rare. Bison h****rs always go to Mexico to hunt as that is where they live. The same article stated that a wall would put pronghorns at high risk, yet in areas where a wall has been built, such as Yuma; rare Sonoran pronghorn populations have rebounded. As for wild cats, the Jaguar, Ocelot, and Jaguarundi are all rare in the US. Ocelots do not migrate. Jaguarundi have large hunting territories, but none have been found to have migrated from Mexico. Male Jaguars have been known to cross from Mexico into the US. No female Jaguars have been spotted north of the border. Like the Sonoran wolf, more can be reintroduced.



I agree. I think a simple but tall steel bollard type would be close to ideal.

bahmer

That looks like a logical suggestion JoyV in fact it could even cross the Rio Grande River could it not?

buffalo Loc: Texas

Are you referring to MarkC's well thought out argument against the wall? I guess you are a structural and civil engineer and know different? LOL He brings up issues even I would never have thought of. Texas along the Rio Grande from Del Rio to the coast where a wall has been proposed is subject to so many of Mother Nature's disasters no matter the design would be a nightmare or like many other parts of the wall would have to be so far from the border/river as to impact landowners, even border towns.

snowbear37 Loc: MA.

1. I am NOT on the left (if you read any of my posts, you'd know that).
2. The whole point of my post was that Trump DOES keep his promises (unlike most politicians).

The statement could have read "Most politicians don't keep their promises like Trump does".

4430 Loc: Little Egypt ** Southern Illinory

How do you explain the success of the wall in San Deigo CA ?