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Why you should be a nationalist.
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Dec 17, 2018 19:05:56   #
ACP45 Loc: Rhode Island
 
slatten49 wrote:
http://visionlaunch.com/pros-and-cons-of-nationalism/


Definitions are a tricky subject. Take for example this statement from your link: Nationalism’s superiority often causes a country to not only be independent from the rest of the world, but also separated from the rest of the world. Treaties can become more difficult to form. It can become difficult to have a strong import/export market. This is because the focus is always on the self first."

Compare this to the video's statement on Nationalism, ""A Nationalist believes the world is governed best when nations are free to chart their own independent course, cultivate their traditions, and pursuing their interests without interference. Nationalism is not about R****m, or Isolationism. It is the opposite of globalism or t***snationalism which are all names for an attempt to bring peace and prosperity to the world by uniting mankind under a single political authority."

There is no reference to the idea of superiority in this view of Nationalism. It simply states that nations have the freedom to choose their own course of development rather than the g*******t view of abolishing national sovereignty. It also implies decision making at the local, community, and national level, in that order.

The video was very specific in identifying that the N**i's and C*******ts are ofter referred to as Nationalistic states, but those totalitarian regimes are the complete opposite of a nation freely choosing to chart it's own independent course.

"The key to human freedom is to build political life out of this natural loyalty - 1st Family, 2nd Community, 3rd Nation. By putting decision making into the hands of Family, Community, and the independent Nation, you could get people to co-operate with one another, join in the common defense, and willingly obey laws. The only alternative to this community and nation based politics is to use force, and to coerce obedience." Does this sound like a definition of "Nationalism" that you could live with comfortably

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Dec 17, 2018 19:19:56   #
dongreen76
 
JFlorio wrote:
Are you saying if Roosevelt hadn’t been a Nationalist the Holcaust wouldn’t have happened? Are you suggesting we shouldn’t have gotten involved in WWII?


No !! I'm not saying that, Roosevelt thought and said that , Hitler had come to power and WWII had started approximately circa 1939.Roosevelt did every thing he could to keep the country out of it with a Nationalist perspective about it.He thought The pond,[ the Alantic Ocean ] would be the barrier that protected our sovereignty along with the fact Hitler was not bothering us[ a Nationalist perspective] This is why the country did not engage it self in the war until DECEMBER 7 1941- PEARL HARBOR.When Pearl harbor took place it was our business.This is why the country is engaged in efforts to influence countries to be of the Free world as oppose to the Marxist world.This is the era in which it started.

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Dec 17, 2018 21:07:18   #
slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas
 
ACP45 wrote:
Definitions are a tricky subject. Take for example this statement from your link: Nationalism’s superiority often causes a country to not only be independent from the rest of the world, but also separated from the rest of the world. Treaties can become more difficult to form. It can become difficult to have a strong import/export market. This is because the focus is always on the self first."

Compare this to the video's statement on Nationalism, ""A Nationalist believes the world is governed best when nations are free to chart their own independent course, cultivate their traditions, and pursuing their interests without interference. Nationalism is not about R****m, or Isolationism. It is the opposite of globalism or t***snationalism which are all names for an attempt to bring peace and prosperity to the world by uniting mankind under a single political authority."

There is no reference to the idea of superiority in this view of Nationalism. It simply states that nations have the freedom to choose their own course of development rather than the g*******t view of abolishing national sovereignty. It also implies decision making at the local, community, and national level, in that order.

The video was very specific in identifying that the N**i's and C*******ts are ofter referred to as Nationalistic states, but those totalitarian regimes are the complete opposite of a nation freely choosing to chart it's own independent course.

"The key to human freedom is to build political life out of this natural loyalty - 1st Family, 2nd Community, 3rd Nation. By putting decision making into the hands of Family, Community, and the independent Nation, you could get people to co-operate with one another, join in the common defense, and willingly obey laws. The only alternative to this community and nation based politics is to use force, and to coerce obedience." Does this sound like a definition of "Nationalism" that you could live with comfortably
Definitions are a tricky subject. Take for example... (show quote)


You're right, definitions are tricky. But, nationalism as an ideology, lends itself to militarism.

Bill Boland, teacher of politics and ideology...

Nationalism is definitely an ideology. Identity, whether at the individual, group, or national level, are social constructs. Nationalism as we see it presently, is closely related to modernity and the state. Nationalism is an ideology because these identities can be created and modified just like other political ideologies. Nationalism is often called the "ideology of the weak" as it takes outside threats and violence to force a group of people to identify with a common cause. Some prime examples are Revolutionary France, and Prussia. During the French Revolution, fellow European Monarchs attacked France to restore the Monarch to power. It had the opposite effect as it caused the average citizen to identify with defending the nation of France...a new concept. It is a powerful tool under the right conditions as having millions of zealot defenders is a powerful force for change. Revolutionary France, led by Napoleon, motivated by Nationalism crushed the Prussian army in 1806, and so humiliated the leaders of Prussia that this became the catalyst for the formation of modern Germany. The "ideology of the weak", nationalism is a force for common cause against a perceived threat. World Wars One and Two demonstrated the power of nationalism as a political ideology.

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Dec 18, 2018 01:14:39   #
JoyV
 
slatten49 wrote:
I listened to the entire video and sorry friend, but I prefer patriotism to nationalism and better than I can explain it, here is why:

Nationalism vs Patriotism https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-nationalism-and-vs-patriotism/

Nationalism and Patriotism are two terms that show differences between them even though both of them are concerned with individual relationships towards nations. Nationalism consists in showing interest in the unification of a nation based on cultural and linguistic equanimity. On the other hand patriotism consists in developing love for a nation based on its values and beliefs. This is the major difference between nationalism and patriotism.

Nationalism gives a feeling that one’s country is superior to another in every aspect and hence it is often described as the worst enemy of peace according to the great thinker George Orwell. On the other hand patriotism does not pave the way for enmity towards other nations but instead, strengthens the admiration towards one’s own country. There is another important difference between nationalism and patriotism. Patriotism is rooted in affection whereas nationalism is rooted in rivalry and hatred. Patriotism has peace as its substratum. In other words it can be said that patriotism works from the base of peace. On the other hand nationalism has militancy as substratum and it works from the base of enmity.

There is some difference between the two when it comes to the way in which a nationalist and a patriot think. A nationalist believes that his country is better than any other country whereas a patriot believes that his country is one of the best and that it can advance in many fields with effort and hard work.

Patriotism is thus considered a common property and is construed equally all over the world. On the other hand a nationalist considers that the people belonging to his own country alone are important. Patriotism expresses the love of an individual towards his country in a passive way. Nationalism is on the other hand aggressive in its concept.

(BTW, I did listen to the entire video above)
I listened to the entire video and sorry friend, b... (show quote)


Your article stated, "Nationalism consists in showing interest in the unification of a nation based on cultural and linguistic equanimity."

I do not know where the author got that understanding, but the definition of nationalism is, "Nationalism is a political, social, and economic ideology and movement characterized by the promotion of the interests of a particular nation, especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining the nation's sovereignty over its homeland" While Patriotism is love for one's country. It is hard to be one without also being the other.

While patriotism is the love of one's country, nationalism is more than the feeling of love but includes the goal of keeping the country sovereign. So nationalism can become negative IF either the methods used to maintain sovereignty are unethical or tyrannical, or if the definition accepted of one's country is narrow and excludes certain groups; such as in N**i Germany.

Let me use a simple analogy. The phrases, "I love my family" (think patriotism) and "I care for my family" (think nationalism) might be seen as virtually synonymous. But the former is the emotion felt, while the latter implies an action or actions. But it would be unusual to think of someone saying they care for their family yet do not love the family.

You can love your family and either not love others or love yours more. This does not make it a bad thing. And just because someone cares for their family does not mean they think their own family is the only one that counts. Nor does the fact that they do not actively care for all families mean they think their family is superior to all others.

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Dec 18, 2018 01:16:09   #
JoyV
 
bahmer wrote:
I would say that Patriotism was where we were for a good number of years here in America and it wasn't until Trump came along and reversed some trends where we were giving large sums away in our trade deals that were actually harmful for America and not beneficial. That was the reason so many companies left America was the taxes and the difference in labor rates. I believe that one can be proud of ones own county and believe that it is superior to other countries and try to help the other countries to try and succeed as opposed to giving them unfair trade deals. So I really believe that one can be both but what we have seen of Nationalism here in America it seems to be working in a positive way for both America and those that we trade with by teaching them how trade is going to work in the future. They are no longer on a free ride anymore and will have to work to get ahead. Nationalism is sort of like do not feed the animals signs one sees in the national parks. The more you feed them the more dependent the animals become on the humans for food and they lose both the desire to forage and the ability to know how to forage. We have done the same to our poor in this country. Now most of them don't know how to go to an interview and get a jjob or go to work all that they want is a handout from big brother which doesn't help them and it doesn't help this country either.
I would say that Patriotism was where we were for ... (show quote)



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Dec 18, 2018 01:31:46   #
JoyV
 
dongreen76 wrote:
Franklin Roosevelt tried the nationalism approach concerning our getting involved in world war ll and it was later reasoned that had he not assumed that attitude that a lot horrific atrociousities that WW2 produced such as the Holocaust,and deaths that occurred on the battlefields could have been averted.
Also,there other factors to consider ,nationalisim is not a unprecedented revolutionary social innovative concept; It has been tried throughout history.When any nation seeks seclusion from the rest of the world,it has always been inherent of mans nature to interlope for all kind of various reasons,lust for power/aggression,for land and wealth and numerous other reasons;with the idea of being independent ,a nation has to be economically self sufficient,have an abundance of natural resources so that it would never be at any other nations discretions - for OIL, or any other natural commodity;any time it would be dependent on another nation to procure said
resource it could never be totally independent.
The idea of - is the nation strong enough militarily to back up it's nationalistic approach manifest ; Hence- this manifestation brings about the idea of arms races,every body wants the ultimate weaponry of nuclear defenses,the whole world with nuclear capabilities inherently promulgates the possibility of world annihilation.
Franklin Roosevelt tried the nationalism approach ... (show quote)


I am not a fan of FDR. But how can our involvement in WWII in any way be responsible for the Holocaust? I would think if we hadn't gotten involved, even more may have been k**led. It was FDR's reluctance to intercede which led to far more Hungarian Jews being slaughtered well after he had confirmation of what was going on and aerial photos of the death camps, crematoriums, and rail lines leading to and from the camps. He chose to ignore the information until allied soldiers actually arrived at the camps. It was the allied military which ultimately halted the slaughter. Sitting out the war would NOT have saved anyone!

Nationalism is not about seclusion from other nations. That is called isolationism. As for military might, it is one method of maintaining sovereignty. But it is not the only one. Is is a false assumption that if you are nationalistic you will necessarily be militarily aggressive.

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Dec 18, 2018 01:34:42   #
JoyV
 
ACP45 wrote:
By the way, consider the last part of Nationalism, i.e. "By putting decision making into the hands of Family, Community, and the independent Nation, you could get people to co-operate with one another, join in the common defense, and willingly obey laws. The only alternative to this community and nation based politics is to use force, and to coerce obedience."

As a nation, how well do we co-operate with each other and willingly obey many of the laws that are being created today. Ask yourself how force and coercion is being used more and more frequently to get people to comply. Ask yourself if government surveillance, oversea wars, and a legal and judicial system that is blatantly politicized contributes to many people questioning the real meaning of "Patriotism".
By the way, consider the last part of Nationalism,... (show quote)


Yup. We have too little nationalism and too much socialism!

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Dec 18, 2018 01:40:02   #
JoyV
 
dongreen76 wrote:
Franklin Roosevelt tried the nationalism approach concerning our getting involved in world war ll and it was later reasoned that had he not assumed that attitude that a lot horrific atrociousities that WW2 produced such as the Holocaust,and deaths that occurred on the battlefields could have been averted.
Also,there other factors to consider ,nationalisim is not a unprecedented revolutionary social innovative concept; It has been tried throughout history.When any nation seeks seclusion from the rest of the world,it has always been inherent of mans nature to interlope for all kind of various reasons,lust for power/aggression,for land and wealth and numerous other reasons;with the idea of being independent ,a nation has to be economically self sufficient,have an abundance of natural resources so that it would never be at any other nations discretions - for OIL, or any other natural commodity;any time it would be dependent on another nation to procure said
resource it could never be totally independent.
The idea of - is the nation strong enough militarily to back up it's nationalistic approach manifest ; Hence- this manifestation brings about the idea of arms races,every body wants the ultimate weaponry of nuclear defenses,the whole world with nuclear capabilities inherently promulgates the possibility of world annihilation.
Franklin Roosevelt tried the nationalism approach ... (show quote)


I've never before heard FDR categorized as a nationalist. He is considered to have been a progressive by most historians and history buffs, and definitely initiated socialist policies.

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Dec 18, 2018 01:48:40   #
JoyV
 
dongreen76 wrote:
No !! I'm not saying that, Roosevelt thought and said that , Hitler had come to power and WWII had started approximately circa 1939.Roosevelt did every thing he could to keep the country out of it with a Nationalist perspective about it.He thought The pond,[ the Alantic Ocean ] would be the barrier that protected our sovereignty along with the fact Hitler was not bothering us[ a Nationalist perspective] This is why the country did not engage it self in the war until DECEMBER 7 1941- PEARL HARBOR.When Pearl harbor took place it was our business.This is why the country is engaged in efforts to influence countries to be of the Free world as oppose to the Marxist world.This is the era in which it started.
No !! I'm not saying that, Roosevelt thought and s... (show quote)


You are confusing nationalism with isolationism. It was the nationalistic approach TO involve ourselves in WWII as a nation and not for Americans to join the militaries of other nations to fight. Our p***e and love in our nation is the foundation of our military success. Having good technology helps. But without patriotic nationalism a less well armed enemy who has their own strong nationalism can hold their own. Just look at Vietnam!

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Dec 18, 2018 14:55:43   #
jimpack123 Loc: wisconsin
 
slatten49 wrote:
http://visionlaunch.com/pros-and-cons-of-nationalism/


N**i Germany was based on nationalism I would rather be a proud American Rich or poor we all are equal

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Dec 18, 2018 18:12:13   #
JoyV
 
jimpack123 wrote:
N**i Germany was based on nationalism I would rather be a proud American Rich or poor we all are equal


The N**i party was both nationalist and socialist. The strong authoritarianism and totalitarianism of the socialists and the strong p***e in national identity of the nationalists. The problem with the N**i nationalism wasn't the nationalism itself. It was their defining Germans as only being the "pure Aryan's" and their belief in their own superiority. P***e in your nation is not the same as believing other nations (or in this case races) are inferior.

It was a strange combination the N**is engaged in to try to meld socialism and nationalism.

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Dec 18, 2018 18:12:55   #
JFlorio Loc: Seminole Florida
 
N**i Germany was based on white nationalism led by a tyrant. The extream end of nationalism. P***e in just being a German had a lot to do with it.
jimpack123 wrote:
N**i Germany was based on nationalism I would rather be a proud American Rich or poor we all are equal

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Dec 18, 2018 18:15:09   #
bahmer
 
JoyV wrote:
The N**i party was both nationalist and socialist. The strong authoritarianism and totalitarianism of the socialists and the strong p***e in national identity of the nationalists. The problem with the N**i nationalism wasn't the nationalism itself. It was their defining Germans as only being the "pure Aryan's" and their belief in their own superiority. P***e in your nation is not the same as believing other nations (or in this case races) are inferior.

It was a strange combination the N**is engaged in to try to meld socialism and nationalism.
The N**i party was both nationalist and socialist.... (show quote)


Hitler was very ingenious in that fact of combining both to get total control. Someone of the caliber is the problem not the nationalist part but the insidious combination that Hitler combined is the true culprit.

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Dec 18, 2018 19:01:48   #
JoyV
 
bahmer wrote:
Hitler was very ingenious in that fact of combining both to get total control. Someone of the caliber is the problem not the nationalist part but the insidious combination that Hitler combined is the true culprit.


I agree!

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Dec 18, 2018 19:20:21   #
maryjane
 
ACP45 wrote:
Key Takeaways from the video:

"A Nationalist believes the world is governed best when nations are free to chart their own independent course, cultivate their traditions, and pursuing their interests without interference. Nationalism is not about R****m, or Isolationism. It is the opposite of globalism or t***snationalism which are all names for an attempt to bring peace and prosperity to the world by uniting mankind under a single political authority."

"A lot of people still think that good borders make good neighbors"

"The key to human freedom is to build political life out of this natural loyalty - 1st Family, 2nd Community, 3rd Nation. By putting decision making into the hands of Family, Community, and the independent Nation, you could get people to co-operate with one another, join in the common defense, and willingly obey laws. The only alternative to this community and nation based politics is to use force, and to coerce obedience.

Sounds pretty good to me! If this is the definition of "Nationalism", count me in.
Key Takeaways from the video: br br "A Natio... (show quote)


Me, too! And if patriotism (as stated in the post) is passive and nationalism is more aggressive, perhaps today, the USA needs a little more nationalism and a little less patriotism. Because allowing and helping the world use and exploit us is certainly not a good thing for our nation or its citizens or its future. Wh**ever one might want to call it, I am for my home/country and my family/fellow citizens FIRST ALWAYS and I see nothing at all wrong with viewing my country as the best. This does not mean perfect, by any means, but everything about my country beats the heck out of the nations whose people all seem to want to come here.

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