Roman Catholicism - It threw Christianity Out the Window!
Dec 16, 2018 15:26:09 #
Rose42,
Please don't start with the "Berean Christadelphians" guilt trip . . . I'm in tears . . . Only in tears of laughter . . .
You may not like what I have to say, or chose not to believe the facts, that is your God given "free-Will . . . to choose . . .
So let's look at the beginnings of the foundational doctrines of your man-Made American "Berean Christadelphians" heretical schismatic sectarian divisional splits of Protestant form of faith.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christadelphians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bereans
Protestant Sectarianism, is a form of bigotry, discrimination, or hatred arising from attaching relations of inferiority and superiority to differences between subdivisions within a religious group. Common examples are denominations that is the continued emphasis of your "Berean Christadelphians" faith in bigotry, hate and prejudices that you espouse and continue on this OPP religious forum Rose42. A cliché for you, "Nut" doesn't fall far from the tree.
So lets keep a running total of schismatic splits and changes in "Berean Christadelphians" church doctrine and fellowship failures . . .
1. Faith Failures Splits; Too many to count . . .
2. Doctrinal changes; Too many to count . . .
3. New schismatic faith Beginnings; Too many to count . . .
a. Bereans (also called Beroeans, Barclayans or Barclayites) were a Protestant sect following former Scottish Presbyterian minister John Barclay (1734-1798).
b. In 1773, the Berean Church followed a modified form of Calvinism.
c. And mainly merged with the Congregationalists after Barclay's death in 1798.
d. A new Protestant Christian group began in the 1850s in the United States under the tutelage of Dr. John Thomas. Founded the "Christadelphian" movement from Philadelphia Pennsylvania and split into "Berean Christadelphians."
e. They deny and reject the
1. "Trinity,"
2. The "Immortality of the soul,"
3. The "Breaking of Bread,"
4. Reject "Creeds,"
5. They do not see other works as inspired by God,
6. That Jesus inherited human nature (with its inclination to sin) from his mother Mary. interpretation
7. Berean Christadelphians also reject the doctrine of Christ's pre-existence contrary to, John 1:1–18
8. They regard the Bible as inspired by God and, therefore, believe that in its original form, it is error free and errors in later copies are due to errors of transcription or translation.
9. Based on this, Christadelphians teach what they believe as true Bible teaching. Which is Biblical Self-Interpretation of the Bible.
10. They don't recognize the same Baptism, viewing such separations as schismatic.
11. That God is a separate being from his son, Jesus Christ, that the Holy Spirit is the power of God used in creation and for salvation.
Which all are the central tenet of orthodox Christianity. Berean Christadelphians beliefs are to be corruptions of original Christian teaching.
f. The doctrine belief of sola scriptura; Scripture is self-authenticating, clear (perspicuous) to the rational reader, its own interpreter ("Scripture interprets Scripture"), and sufficient of itself to be the final authority of Christian doctrine. "The law of Christ" is a New Testament phrase of uncertain meaning, found only in the Pauline Epistles at Galatians 6:2 and parenthetically at 1 Corinthians 9:21.
"Berean Christadelphians, are believers of "Biblical Unitarianism, which encompasses the key doctrines of nontrinitarian Christians who affirm the Bible as their sole authority, and from it base their beliefs that God the Father is a singular being, the only one God, and that Jesus Christ is God’s son, but not divine. The term "biblical Unitarianism" is connected first with Robert Spears and Samuel Sharpe of the Christian Life magazine in the 1880s.
It is a neologism (or retronym) ("Speech or utterance" recent or isolated term, word, or phrase that may be in the process of entering common use, but that has not yet been fully accepted into mainstream language.) that gained increasing currency in nontrinitarian literature during the 20th century as the mainstream Unitarian churches moved away from belief in the Bible and, in the United States, towards merger with Universalism. A retronym is a newer name for an existing thing that differentiates the original form or version from a more recent one.
g. "Berean Christadelphians, doctrine of the clarity of Scripture (often called the perspicuity of Scripture) is a Protestant Christian position teaching that "...those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture. Or in other words, man-Made self-interpretation of the Bible doctrine . . .
h. The "Berean Christadelphians" religious group traces its origins to John Thomas (1805–1871) A "Restoration Movement" is a Christian movement that began on the United States frontier during the Second Great Awakening (1790–1840) of the early 19th century. The pioneers of this movement were seeking to reform the church from within and sought "the unification of all Christians in a single body patterned after the church of the New Testament." Especially since the mid-20th century, members of these churches do not identify as Protestant but simply as Christian.
i. John Thomas (1805–1871) A "Restoration Movement" was baptized two times after renouncing the beliefs he previously held. The abjuration of his former beliefs eventually led to the Restoration Movement disfellowshipping him.
John Thomas then developed his man-made theology interpretation; Elpis Israelin which he laid out his new understanding of the main doctrines of the Bible. Since his medium for bringing change was print and debate, it was natural for the origins of the Christadelphian body to be associated with books and journals, such as Thomas's Herald of the Kingdom.
j. John Thomas then combined the Adventist movement, the Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith, Unitarianism, and rediscovered 1st century beliefs from the Bible alone.
Groups associated with John Thomas met under various schismatic groups names, including;
1. Believers,
2. Baptised Believers,
3. The Royal Association of Believers,
4. Baptised Believers in the Kingdom of God,
5. Nazarines (or Nazarenes) and
6. The Antipas
j. Robert Roberts, In 1864 he began to publish The Ambassador of the Coming Age magazine.
Although the Christadelphian movement originated through the activities of John Thomas, he never saw himself as making his own disciples. He believed rather that he had rediscovered 1st century beliefs from the Bible alone,[17] and sought to prove that through a process of challenge and debate and writing journals. Through that process a number of people became convinced and set up various fellowships that had sympathy with that position. Groups associated with John Thomas met under various names, including Believers, Baptised Believers, the Royal Association of Believers, Baptised Believers in the Kingdom of God, Nazarines (or Nazarenes) and The Antipas[18] until the time of the American Civil War (1861–1865). At that time, church affiliation was required in the United States and in the Confederacy in order to register for conscientious objector status, and in 1864 Thomas chose for registration purposes the name Christadelphian.[2][3][4][5]
Through the teaching of John Thomas and the need in the American Civil War for a name, the Christadelphians emerged as a denomination, but they were formed into a lasting structure through a passionate follower of Thomas's interpretation of the Bible, Robert Roberts. In 1864 he began to publish The Ambassador of the Coming Age magazine. John Thomas, out of concern that someone else might start a publication and call it The Christadelphian.
I also wonder what he would have written differently, if the "The Didache" . . . “The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles . . . The Early Church Patristic Fathers, 1st Century Manuscript Found in AD 1887 were available to him ?
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-148097-1.html
k. Robert Roberts helped craft the man-Made structures of the Christadelphian body. Doctrinal issues arose, debates took place and statements of faith were created and amended as other issues arose. These attempts were felt necessary by many to both settle and define a doctrinal stance for the newly emerging denomination and to keep out error. As a result of these debates, several groups separated from the main body of Christadelphians, most notably the Suffolk Street fellowship and the Unamended fellowship.
By the end of the 1950s, most Christadelphians had united into one community, but there are still a number of small groups of Christadelphians who remain separate.
General organization of "Berean Christadelphians". Most church ecclesias have a constitution.
In the absence of centralised organization, some differences exist amongst Christadelphians on matters of belief and practice. This is because each congregation (commonly styled 'ecclesias') is organized autonomously, typically following common practices which have altered little since the 19th century. Most ecclesias have a constitution,[28] which includes a 'Statement of Faith', a list of 'Doctrines to be Rejected' and a formalized list of 'The Commandments of Christ'.
With no central authority, individual congregations are responsible for maintaining orthodoxy in belief and practice, and the statement of faith is seen by many as useful to this end. The statement of faith acts as the official standard of most ecclesias to determine fellowship within and between ecclesias, and as the basis for co-operation between ecclesias. Congregational discipline and conflict resolution are applied using various forms of consultation, mediation, and discussion, with disfellowship (similar to excommunication) being the final response to those with unorthodox practices or beliefs.
The relative uniformity of organization and practice is undoubtedly due to the influence of a booklet, written early in Christadelphian history by Robert Roberts, called A Guide to the Formation and Conduct of Christadelphian Ecclesias. It recommends a basically democratic arrangement by which congregational members elect 'brothers' to arranging and serving duties, and includes guidelines for the organization of committees, as well as conflict resolution between congregational members and between congregations.
Christadelphians do not have paid ministers. Male members are assessed by the congregation for their eligibility to teach and perform other duties, which are usually assigned on a rotation basis, as opposed to having a permanently appointed preacher. Congregational governance typically follows a democratic model, with an elected arranging committee for each individual ecclesia. This unpaid committee is responsible for the day-to-day running of the ecclesia and is answerable to the rest of the ecclesia's members.
Inter-ecclesial organizations co-ordinate the running of, among other things, Christadelphian schools and elderly care homes, the Christadelphian Isolation League (which cares for those prevented by distance or infirmity from attending an ecclesia regularly) and the publication of Christadelphian magazines.
l. Fellowships;
The Christadelphian body consists of a number of fellowships – groups of ecclesias which associate with one another, often to the exclusion of ecclesias outside their group. They are to some degree localised. The Unamended Fellowship, for example, exists only in North America. Christadelphian fellowships have often been named after ecclesias or magazines who took a lead in developing a particular stance.
m. The majority of "Berean Christadelphians" belong to what is commonly known as the Central fellowship. The Unamended fellowship, is found in the East Coast and Midwest USA and Ontario, Canada. This group separated in 1898 as a result of differing views on who would be raised to judgment at the return of Christ.
The Dawn fellowship, are the result of an issue which arose in 1942 among the Berean fellowship regarding divorce and remarriage. The stricter party formed the Dawn Fellowship who, following re-union on the basis of unity of belief with the Lightstand fellowship in Australia.
The Old Paths fellowship, was formed in 1957 by those in the "Temperance Hall Fellowship" who held that the reasons for separation from the "Suffolk Street fellowship" and its sympathising communities remained. They also strongly believed that the Biblical teaching of fellowship required full unity of belief on all fundamental principles of Bible Truth and thus the reunion should have been with the full agreement and understanding of all members rather than the result of the majority vote that prevailed.
Other Fellowships which openly identify themselves as "Berean Christadelphians".
Examples are the "Watchman Fellowship," "the Companion Fellowship," and the "Pioneer Fellowship. "The "Nazarene Fellowship," "The "Ecclesia of Christ Fellowship," The "Remnant of Christ's Ecclesia Fellowship" The "Apostolic Fellowship of Christ Fellowship," "The Apostolic Ecclesias Fellowship."
n. According to Bryan Wilson, functionally the definition of a "fellowship" within Christadelphian history has been mutual or unilateral exclusion of groupings of ecclesias from the breaking of bread. This functional definition still holds true in North America, where the Unamended fellowship and the Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith are not received by most North American Amended ecclesias.
o. Some "Berean Christadelphians" ecclesias have statements around their positions, especially on divorce and re-marriage, making clear that offence would be caused by anyone in that position seeking to join them at the 'Breaking of Bread' service. Others tolerate a degree of divergence from commonly held Christadelphian views.
Ok lets look at your Berean logic here, murdering innocent people . . . now there's a vague open ended question . . .
1. Death of Protestants in the 21th century AD 2000 . . . by the Catholic Church . . . ZERO . . .
2. Death of Protestants in the 20th century AD 1900 . . . by the Catholic Church . . . ZERO . . .
3. Death of Protestants in the 19th century AD 1800 . . . by the Catholic Church . . . ZERO . . .
4. Death of Protestants in the 18th century AD 1700 . . . by the Catholic Church . . . ZERO . . .
5. Death of Protestants in the 18th century AD 1700 . . . by the Catholic Church . . . ZERO . . .
6. Death of Protestants in the 17th century AD 1600 . . . by the Catholic Church . . . ZERO . . .
7. Death of Protestants in the 18th century AD 1500 . . . by the Catholic Church . . . ZERO . . .
Figure out why I said this . . . ?
Please don't start with the "Berean Christadelphians" guilt trip . . . I'm in tears . . . Only in tears of laughter . . .
You may not like what I have to say, or chose not to believe the facts, that is your God given "free-Will . . . to choose . . .
So let's look at the beginnings of the foundational doctrines of your man-Made American "Berean Christadelphians" heretical schismatic sectarian divisional splits of Protestant form of faith.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christadelphians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bereans
Protestant Sectarianism, is a form of bigotry, discrimination, or hatred arising from attaching relations of inferiority and superiority to differences between subdivisions within a religious group. Common examples are denominations that is the continued emphasis of your "Berean Christadelphians" faith in bigotry, hate and prejudices that you espouse and continue on this OPP religious forum Rose42. A cliché for you, "Nut" doesn't fall far from the tree.
So lets keep a running total of schismatic splits and changes in "Berean Christadelphians" church doctrine and fellowship failures . . .
1. Faith Failures Splits; Too many to count . . .
2. Doctrinal changes; Too many to count . . .
3. New schismatic faith Beginnings; Too many to count . . .
a. Bereans (also called Beroeans, Barclayans or Barclayites) were a Protestant sect following former Scottish Presbyterian minister John Barclay (1734-1798).
b. In 1773, the Berean Church followed a modified form of Calvinism.
c. And mainly merged with the Congregationalists after Barclay's death in 1798.
d. A new Protestant Christian group began in the 1850s in the United States under the tutelage of Dr. John Thomas. Founded the "Christadelphian" movement from Philadelphia Pennsylvania and split into "Berean Christadelphians."
e. They deny and reject the
1. "Trinity,"
2. The "Immortality of the soul,"
3. The "Breaking of Bread,"
4. Reject "Creeds,"
5. They do not see other works as inspired by God,
6. That Jesus inherited human nature (with its inclination to sin) from his mother Mary. interpretation
7. Berean Christadelphians also reject the doctrine of Christ's pre-existence contrary to, John 1:1–18
8. They regard the Bible as inspired by God and, therefore, believe that in its original form, it is error free and errors in later copies are due to errors of transcription or translation.
9. Based on this, Christadelphians teach what they believe as true Bible teaching. Which is Biblical Self-Interpretation of the Bible.
10. They don't recognize the same Baptism, viewing such separations as schismatic.
11. That God is a separate being from his son, Jesus Christ, that the Holy Spirit is the power of God used in creation and for salvation.
Which all are the central tenet of orthodox Christianity. Berean Christadelphians beliefs are to be corruptions of original Christian teaching.
f. The doctrine belief of sola scriptura; Scripture is self-authenticating, clear (perspicuous) to the rational reader, its own interpreter ("Scripture interprets Scripture"), and sufficient of itself to be the final authority of Christian doctrine. "The law of Christ" is a New Testament phrase of uncertain meaning, found only in the Pauline Epistles at Galatians 6:2 and parenthetically at 1 Corinthians 9:21.
"Berean Christadelphians, are believers of "Biblical Unitarianism, which encompasses the key doctrines of nontrinitarian Christians who affirm the Bible as their sole authority, and from it base their beliefs that God the Father is a singular being, the only one God, and that Jesus Christ is God’s son, but not divine. The term "biblical Unitarianism" is connected first with Robert Spears and Samuel Sharpe of the Christian Life magazine in the 1880s.
It is a neologism (or retronym) ("Speech or utterance" recent or isolated term, word, or phrase that may be in the process of entering common use, but that has not yet been fully accepted into mainstream language.) that gained increasing currency in nontrinitarian literature during the 20th century as the mainstream Unitarian churches moved away from belief in the Bible and, in the United States, towards merger with Universalism. A retronym is a newer name for an existing thing that differentiates the original form or version from a more recent one.
g. "Berean Christadelphians, doctrine of the clarity of Scripture (often called the perspicuity of Scripture) is a Protestant Christian position teaching that "...those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture. Or in other words, man-Made self-interpretation of the Bible doctrine . . .
h. The "Berean Christadelphians" religious group traces its origins to John Thomas (1805–1871) A "Restoration Movement" is a Christian movement that began on the United States frontier during the Second Great Awakening (1790–1840) of the early 19th century. The pioneers of this movement were seeking to reform the church from within and sought "the unification of all Christians in a single body patterned after the church of the New Testament." Especially since the mid-20th century, members of these churches do not identify as Protestant but simply as Christian.
i. John Thomas (1805–1871) A "Restoration Movement" was baptized two times after renouncing the beliefs he previously held. The abjuration of his former beliefs eventually led to the Restoration Movement disfellowshipping him.
John Thomas then developed his man-made theology interpretation; Elpis Israelin which he laid out his new understanding of the main doctrines of the Bible. Since his medium for bringing change was print and debate, it was natural for the origins of the Christadelphian body to be associated with books and journals, such as Thomas's Herald of the Kingdom.
j. John Thomas then combined the Adventist movement, the Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith, Unitarianism, and rediscovered 1st century beliefs from the Bible alone.
Groups associated with John Thomas met under various schismatic groups names, including;
1. Believers,
2. Baptised Believers,
3. The Royal Association of Believers,
4. Baptised Believers in the Kingdom of God,
5. Nazarines (or Nazarenes) and
6. The Antipas
j. Robert Roberts, In 1864 he began to publish The Ambassador of the Coming Age magazine.
Although the Christadelphian movement originated through the activities of John Thomas, he never saw himself as making his own disciples. He believed rather that he had rediscovered 1st century beliefs from the Bible alone,[17] and sought to prove that through a process of challenge and debate and writing journals. Through that process a number of people became convinced and set up various fellowships that had sympathy with that position. Groups associated with John Thomas met under various names, including Believers, Baptised Believers, the Royal Association of Believers, Baptised Believers in the Kingdom of God, Nazarines (or Nazarenes) and The Antipas[18] until the time of the American Civil War (1861–1865). At that time, church affiliation was required in the United States and in the Confederacy in order to register for conscientious objector status, and in 1864 Thomas chose for registration purposes the name Christadelphian.[2][3][4][5]
Through the teaching of John Thomas and the need in the American Civil War for a name, the Christadelphians emerged as a denomination, but they were formed into a lasting structure through a passionate follower of Thomas's interpretation of the Bible, Robert Roberts. In 1864 he began to publish The Ambassador of the Coming Age magazine. John Thomas, out of concern that someone else might start a publication and call it The Christadelphian.
I also wonder what he would have written differently, if the "The Didache" . . . “The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles . . . The Early Church Patristic Fathers, 1st Century Manuscript Found in AD 1887 were available to him ?
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-148097-1.html
k. Robert Roberts helped craft the man-Made structures of the Christadelphian body. Doctrinal issues arose, debates took place and statements of faith were created and amended as other issues arose. These attempts were felt necessary by many to both settle and define a doctrinal stance for the newly emerging denomination and to keep out error. As a result of these debates, several groups separated from the main body of Christadelphians, most notably the Suffolk Street fellowship and the Unamended fellowship.
By the end of the 1950s, most Christadelphians had united into one community, but there are still a number of small groups of Christadelphians who remain separate.
General organization of "Berean Christadelphians". Most church ecclesias have a constitution.
In the absence of centralised organization, some differences exist amongst Christadelphians on matters of belief and practice. This is because each congregation (commonly styled 'ecclesias') is organized autonomously, typically following common practices which have altered little since the 19th century. Most ecclesias have a constitution,[28] which includes a 'Statement of Faith', a list of 'Doctrines to be Rejected' and a formalized list of 'The Commandments of Christ'.
With no central authority, individual congregations are responsible for maintaining orthodoxy in belief and practice, and the statement of faith is seen by many as useful to this end. The statement of faith acts as the official standard of most ecclesias to determine fellowship within and between ecclesias, and as the basis for co-operation between ecclesias. Congregational discipline and conflict resolution are applied using various forms of consultation, mediation, and discussion, with disfellowship (similar to excommunication) being the final response to those with unorthodox practices or beliefs.
The relative uniformity of organization and practice is undoubtedly due to the influence of a booklet, written early in Christadelphian history by Robert Roberts, called A Guide to the Formation and Conduct of Christadelphian Ecclesias. It recommends a basically democratic arrangement by which congregational members elect 'brothers' to arranging and serving duties, and includes guidelines for the organization of committees, as well as conflict resolution between congregational members and between congregations.
Christadelphians do not have paid ministers. Male members are assessed by the congregation for their eligibility to teach and perform other duties, which are usually assigned on a rotation basis, as opposed to having a permanently appointed preacher. Congregational governance typically follows a democratic model, with an elected arranging committee for each individual ecclesia. This unpaid committee is responsible for the day-to-day running of the ecclesia and is answerable to the rest of the ecclesia's members.
Inter-ecclesial organizations co-ordinate the running of, among other things, Christadelphian schools and elderly care homes, the Christadelphian Isolation League (which cares for those prevented by distance or infirmity from attending an ecclesia regularly) and the publication of Christadelphian magazines.
l. Fellowships;
The Christadelphian body consists of a number of fellowships – groups of ecclesias which associate with one another, often to the exclusion of ecclesias outside their group. They are to some degree localised. The Unamended Fellowship, for example, exists only in North America. Christadelphian fellowships have often been named after ecclesias or magazines who took a lead in developing a particular stance.
m. The majority of "Berean Christadelphians" belong to what is commonly known as the Central fellowship. The Unamended fellowship, is found in the East Coast and Midwest USA and Ontario, Canada. This group separated in 1898 as a result of differing views on who would be raised to judgment at the return of Christ.
The Dawn fellowship, are the result of an issue which arose in 1942 among the Berean fellowship regarding divorce and remarriage. The stricter party formed the Dawn Fellowship who, following re-union on the basis of unity of belief with the Lightstand fellowship in Australia.
The Old Paths fellowship, was formed in 1957 by those in the "Temperance Hall Fellowship" who held that the reasons for separation from the "Suffolk Street fellowship" and its sympathising communities remained. They also strongly believed that the Biblical teaching of fellowship required full unity of belief on all fundamental principles of Bible Truth and thus the reunion should have been with the full agreement and understanding of all members rather than the result of the majority vote that prevailed.
Other Fellowships which openly identify themselves as "Berean Christadelphians".
Examples are the "Watchman Fellowship," "the Companion Fellowship," and the "Pioneer Fellowship. "The "Nazarene Fellowship," "The "Ecclesia of Christ Fellowship," The "Remnant of Christ's Ecclesia Fellowship" The "Apostolic Fellowship of Christ Fellowship," "The Apostolic Ecclesias Fellowship."
n. According to Bryan Wilson, functionally the definition of a "fellowship" within Christadelphian history has been mutual or unilateral exclusion of groupings of ecclesias from the breaking of bread. This functional definition still holds true in North America, where the Unamended fellowship and the Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith are not received by most North American Amended ecclesias.
o. Some "Berean Christadelphians" ecclesias have statements around their positions, especially on divorce and re-marriage, making clear that offence would be caused by anyone in that position seeking to join them at the 'Breaking of Bread' service. Others tolerate a degree of divergence from commonly held Christadelphian views.
Ok lets look at your Berean logic here, murdering innocent people . . . now there's a vague open ended question . . .
1. Death of Protestants in the 21th century AD 2000 . . . by the Catholic Church . . . ZERO . . .
2. Death of Protestants in the 20th century AD 1900 . . . by the Catholic Church . . . ZERO . . .
3. Death of Protestants in the 19th century AD 1800 . . . by the Catholic Church . . . ZERO . . .
4. Death of Protestants in the 18th century AD 1700 . . . by the Catholic Church . . . ZERO . . .
5. Death of Protestants in the 18th century AD 1700 . . . by the Catholic Church . . . ZERO . . .
6. Death of Protestants in the 17th century AD 1600 . . . by the Catholic Church . . . ZERO . . .
7. Death of Protestants in the 18th century AD 1500 . . . by the Catholic Church . . . ZERO . . .
Figure out why I said this . . . ?
Dec 16, 2018 15:27:24 #
TexaCan
Loc: Homeward Bound!
Venus3 wrote:
============ br b Your malicious intentions you h... (show quote)
You are lying again! My exact words are, “Time is short for anyone of our age!” I said this on Dec 2 on the thread
“Exposing the heresies of the Catholic Church - the mass”. Do you not realize that everything we write is recorded and can be researched? Look it up for yourself! I will expect your apology for lying about what I said!
ALWAYS THE VICTIM!
I have yet to see a lot of love coming from you!
Dec 16, 2018 15:35:04 #
TexaCan wrote:
You are lying again! My exact words are, “Time is short for anyone of our age!” I said this on Dec 2 on the thread
“Exposing the heresies of the Catholic Church - the mass”. Do you not realize that everything we write is recorded and can be researched? Look it up for yourself! I will expect your apology for lying about what I said!
ALWAYS THE VICTIM!
I have yet to see a lot of love coming from you!
“Exposing the heresies of the Catholic Church - the mass”. Do you not realize that everything we write is recorded and can be researched? Look it up for yourself! I will expect your apology for lying about what I said!
ALWAYS THE VICTIM!
I have yet to see a lot of love coming from you!
I haven't seen any love coming from him ever since I have been on this forum. He has a hard time showing love to Venus3 and padremike even and they are sitting on his side of the table.
Dec 16, 2018 15:41:24 #
balmer
Where is your love and compassion ?
Protestant guilt, you can dish out the compost, but can't accept the compost either.
Hypocritical don't you think you Protestant lap-dog sycophant.
You get no accolades or acclaims from me.Below are previous conversations, said with love and kindness.
Do you want the correspondence when I asked you to not "Attack" my Catholic faith and the consequences of your anti-Catholic actions in our previous correspondence ?
Now who is saying mistruth's here and is lying through his teeth . . .
A Protestant heretic hypocrite comes to mind . . .
If Your Brother Offends You
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
Matt 18:15-17
Matthew 18:16
But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Matthew 18:17
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Matthew 18:15-20
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. ...
Judge not, that you be not judged, Matthew 7:1-29
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. ...
Matthew 7:1-29
Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 12:34 ESV / 10 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
Luke 17:3-4
Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Proverbs 29:11
A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.
2 Timothy 2:24-26
And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
Proverbs 15:1
A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.
Ephesians 4:29
Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.
Romans 12:18
If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.
Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,
1 Corinthians 13:1-13
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; ...
Proverbs 18:13
If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.
1 Corinthians 5:12
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
Titus 3:10
As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him,
1 Timothy 5:20
As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.
Proverbs 19:11
Good sense makes one slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense.
Proverbs 26:4-5
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.
1 John 1:10
If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
My next project is the Assembly of God faith, a man-made Protestant heretical doctrines.
You won't like what it has to say, after I post the man-Made Protestant faith,
balmer, Get ready to counter the actual facts of recorded in History and Church history . . .
Doc110
Private message from and to Balmer.
Apr 5, 2018 18:28:01
Doc110 wrote:
I’ve been very busy lately, prayerfully.
This Easter season, the 40 days of Lent, the death of Our Lord and Savior, and His resurrection has filled my soul spirituality. I’ve been praying the rosary and have a continual devotion to Our Lady Mary, the mother of God, The immaculate conception.
I’ve found out that these blogs, no offense here, really do not accomplish very much, are realistically futile and can be only a waste of my presious time.
No amount of Catholic truthful apologetics, will ever change these stiffnecked religious ignorant, self-righteous anti-Catholic bigots found here on the OPP Religious Forum.
Talk is cheep . . . And engaging them only tickles their Misogynistic devilish evil ego, to no outcome or positive avail. . . . It’s all Pure religious Huburis.
Whereas, Contemplativly, I can be praying more, doing more good works for others and improve my understanding and learning of my Catholic faith.
By reading the early church fathers, reading of the Popes cyclicals and learning more of the Church Doctors, such as Thomas Aquinas, learning about the Saints and their gifts to us and of Our Lady Mary, the Mother of God and the increasing Spiritual apparitions and messages that have occurred in the past 20 years.
Also I am helping others to understand the word of God found in the Bible. I am starting a Prison outreach Ministry and helping the poor and downtrodden in my community, as well starting a new business.
Please Look out for my 6 cooking sauces and recipes, that are going Statewide, to commercial restaurant suppliers, and then to wholesalers like sam’s club, Costco and Bj’s, then nationally and globally. It’s Called Savy Sause.
All profits will go to these Catholic Christian endeavors mentioned.
We all need to get back to Our Catholic Christian basics roots. The seven sacraments and to the Catholic catechism, the Ten Commandments, firstly to love God with all our heart soul and mind, and secondly to love one another as Jesus the Christ has loved us.
We all need to be in a state of sinlesses, by going to Confession or the sacrament of reconciliation and strive for Christian Catholic perfection.
It is my belief that We all need to be in a prayer group, or start a mission group to help the lost souls that have gone astray to all the world wide ISM’s, that are currently plaguing our communities, States, our Nation and the world.
We all need to start evangelizing to others, because we are of this world but are not part of this current evilness that is enveloping our children, our families our communities and parishes. This is an all out evil war, and their is no way in hell that I’m going to allow this anti-Catholic Christian behavior and evil reherotic to continue.
My life has become more peaceful, not worrying about the news articles and evils of the world, the actions of devil and his minions.
Because of this, I do follow the news, but reflect on the lack of actual factual news reporting out their, the evilness and opinion quagmire that ensues and envelops any reason or rational, or religious objectivity in our lives.
I now only respond with religious clarity and Our Lords grace, knowledge and his wisdom. I’m only explaining to you my thoughts and religious belief because I’m evolving more spiritually and to Gods teaching and his graces and His blessings.
Regardless of what I say factually and reply, their is no impact on their rational thought process. There will always be skepticism with these people that are ignorant to the truth.
And to the teachings and sacramental instructions of Jesus Christ, and of his one true Church that he has founded, with Saint Peter soul authority as the Pope, he was given the Church keys and is steward of Jesus Christ’s Church and The devil will not prevail against Gods Church. I believe in apostolic and bishop succession, to the Priest presbyters, deacons and Church laity faithful.
So in the future on the OPP religious and my articles posted will become smaller in stature, while my community outreach work will increase with the blessings of the Catholic Bishop in the Harrisburg PA area.
May the Risen Lord be in your heart, soul and mind always.
With love,
Doc110
Paul A Grew
Pagrew@icloud.com
Glad to know that you are well and about the Lords work Take care and I will continue to look out for your posts if and when you post. Ihope that your Easter was a fulfilling one and that your peace will continue trough the summer months ahead.
Where is your love and compassion ?
Protestant guilt, you can dish out the compost, but can't accept the compost either.
Hypocritical don't you think you Protestant lap-dog sycophant.
You get no accolades or acclaims from me.Below are previous conversations, said with love and kindness.
Do you want the correspondence when I asked you to not "Attack" my Catholic faith and the consequences of your anti-Catholic actions in our previous correspondence ?
Now who is saying mistruth's here and is lying through his teeth . . .
A Protestant heretic hypocrite comes to mind . . .
If Your Brother Offends You
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
Matt 18:15-17
Matthew 18:16
But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Matthew 18:17
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Matthew 18:15-20
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. ...
Judge not, that you be not judged, Matthew 7:1-29
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. ...
Matthew 7:1-29
Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 12:34 ESV / 10 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
Luke 17:3-4
Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Proverbs 29:11
A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.
2 Timothy 2:24-26
And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
Proverbs 15:1
A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.
Ephesians 4:29
Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.
Romans 12:18
If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.
Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,
1 Corinthians 13:1-13
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; ...
Proverbs 18:13
If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.
1 Corinthians 5:12
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
Titus 3:10
As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him,
1 Timothy 5:20
As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.
Proverbs 19:11
Good sense makes one slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense.
Proverbs 26:4-5
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.
1 John 1:10
If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
My next project is the Assembly of God faith, a man-made Protestant heretical doctrines.
You won't like what it has to say, after I post the man-Made Protestant faith,
balmer, Get ready to counter the actual facts of recorded in History and Church history . . .
Doc110
Private message from and to Balmer.
Apr 5, 2018 18:28:01
Doc110 wrote:
I’ve been very busy lately, prayerfully.
This Easter season, the 40 days of Lent, the death of Our Lord and Savior, and His resurrection has filled my soul spirituality. I’ve been praying the rosary and have a continual devotion to Our Lady Mary, the mother of God, The immaculate conception.
I’ve found out that these blogs, no offense here, really do not accomplish very much, are realistically futile and can be only a waste of my presious time.
No amount of Catholic truthful apologetics, will ever change these stiffnecked religious ignorant, self-righteous anti-Catholic bigots found here on the OPP Religious Forum.
Talk is cheep . . . And engaging them only tickles their Misogynistic devilish evil ego, to no outcome or positive avail. . . . It’s all Pure religious Huburis.
Whereas, Contemplativly, I can be praying more, doing more good works for others and improve my understanding and learning of my Catholic faith.
By reading the early church fathers, reading of the Popes cyclicals and learning more of the Church Doctors, such as Thomas Aquinas, learning about the Saints and their gifts to us and of Our Lady Mary, the Mother of God and the increasing Spiritual apparitions and messages that have occurred in the past 20 years.
Also I am helping others to understand the word of God found in the Bible. I am starting a Prison outreach Ministry and helping the poor and downtrodden in my community, as well starting a new business.
Please Look out for my 6 cooking sauces and recipes, that are going Statewide, to commercial restaurant suppliers, and then to wholesalers like sam’s club, Costco and Bj’s, then nationally and globally. It’s Called Savy Sause.
All profits will go to these Catholic Christian endeavors mentioned.
We all need to get back to Our Catholic Christian basics roots. The seven sacraments and to the Catholic catechism, the Ten Commandments, firstly to love God with all our heart soul and mind, and secondly to love one another as Jesus the Christ has loved us.
We all need to be in a state of sinlesses, by going to Confession or the sacrament of reconciliation and strive for Christian Catholic perfection.
It is my belief that We all need to be in a prayer group, or start a mission group to help the lost souls that have gone astray to all the world wide ISM’s, that are currently plaguing our communities, States, our Nation and the world.
We all need to start evangelizing to others, because we are of this world but are not part of this current evilness that is enveloping our children, our families our communities and parishes. This is an all out evil war, and their is no way in hell that I’m going to allow this anti-Catholic Christian behavior and evil reherotic to continue.
My life has become more peaceful, not worrying about the news articles and evils of the world, the actions of devil and his minions.
Because of this, I do follow the news, but reflect on the lack of actual factual news reporting out their, the evilness and opinion quagmire that ensues and envelops any reason or rational, or religious objectivity in our lives.
I now only respond with religious clarity and Our Lords grace, knowledge and his wisdom. I’m only explaining to you my thoughts and religious belief because I’m evolving more spiritually and to Gods teaching and his graces and His blessings.
Regardless of what I say factually and reply, their is no impact on their rational thought process. There will always be skepticism with these people that are ignorant to the truth.
And to the teachings and sacramental instructions of Jesus Christ, and of his one true Church that he has founded, with Saint Peter soul authority as the Pope, he was given the Church keys and is steward of Jesus Christ’s Church and The devil will not prevail against Gods Church. I believe in apostolic and bishop succession, to the Priest presbyters, deacons and Church laity faithful.
So in the future on the OPP religious and my articles posted will become smaller in stature, while my community outreach work will increase with the blessings of the Catholic Bishop in the Harrisburg PA area.
May the Risen Lord be in your heart, soul and mind always.
With love,
Doc110
Paul A Grew
Pagrew@icloud.com
Glad to know that you are well and about the Lords work Take care and I will continue to look out for your posts if and when you post. Ihope that your Easter was a fulfilling one and that your peace will continue trough the summer months ahead.
bahmer wrote:
Ihaven'tseenanylovecomingfromhimeversinceIhavebeenonthisforum.HehasahardtimeshowinglovetoVenus3andpadremikeevenandtheyaresittingonhissideofthetable.
Dec 16, 2018 16:02:49 #
You still haven't answered them Doc. Why are you avoiding my questions?
The Roman Catholic church had William Tyndale burned at the stake in the 1500s and also.Jan Hus, Hugh Latimer, William Tyndale, Patrick Hamilton, George Wishart and other Christians.
According to historian John Dowling the Roman Catholic church put to death 50 million heretics between A.D. 606 and the mid-1800s. It's unknown how many were Christians.
You keep ducking questions. How many THOUSANDS of children were sexually abused by clergy during just the last century? All popes have covered this up.
I'll leave you to look up criminal popes. There have been plenty of criminal popes since the Catholic church began.
Quote:
br 1. Death of Protestants in the 21th century AD... (show quote)
The Roman Catholic church had William Tyndale burned at the stake in the 1500s and also.Jan Hus, Hugh Latimer, William Tyndale, Patrick Hamilton, George Wishart and other Christians.
According to historian John Dowling the Roman Catholic church put to death 50 million heretics between A.D. 606 and the mid-1800s. It's unknown how many were Christians.
You keep ducking questions. How many THOUSANDS of children were sexually abused by clergy during just the last century? All popes have covered this up.
I'll leave you to look up criminal popes. There have been plenty of criminal popes since the Catholic church began.
Dec 16, 2018 16:22:11 #
Balmer,
If Your Brother Offends You
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
Matt 18:15-17
Matthew 18:16
But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Matthew 18:17
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Matthew 18:15-20
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. ...
Judge not, that you be not judged, Matthew 7:1-29
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. ...
Matthew 7:1-29
Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 12:34 ESV / 10 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
Luke 17:3-4
Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Proverbs 29:11
A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.
2 Timothy 2:24-26
And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
Proverbs 15:1
A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.
Ephesians 4:29
Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.
Romans 12:18
If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.
Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,
1 Corinthians 13:1-13
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; ...
Proverbs 18:13
If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.
1 Corinthians 5:12
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
Titus 3:10
As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him,
1 Timothy 5:20
As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.
Proverbs 19:11
Good sense makes one slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense.
Proverbs 26:4-5
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.
1 John 1:10
If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
If Your Brother Offends You
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
Matt 18:15-17
Matthew 18:16
But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Matthew 18:17
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Matthew 18:15-20
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. ...
Judge not, that you be not judged, Matthew 7:1-29
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. ...
Matthew 7:1-29
Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 12:34 ESV / 10 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
Luke 17:3-4
Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Proverbs 29:11
A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.
2 Timothy 2:24-26
And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
Proverbs 15:1
A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.
Ephesians 4:29
Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.
Romans 12:18
If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.
Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,
1 Corinthians 13:1-13
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; ...
Proverbs 18:13
If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.
1 Corinthians 5:12
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
Titus 3:10
As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him,
1 Timothy 5:20
As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.
Proverbs 19:11
Good sense makes one slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense.
Proverbs 26:4-5
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.
1 John 1:10
If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
bahmer wrote:
I haven't seen any love coming from him ever since I have been on this forum. He has a hard time showing love to Venus3 and padremike even and they are sitting on his side of the table.
I haven't seen any love coming from him ever since I have been on this forum. He has a hard time showing love to Venus3 and padremike even and they are sitting on his side of the table.
Dec 16, 2018 16:25:21 #
Doc110 wrote:
balmer br br Where is your love and compassion ? ... (show quote)
Oh this was supposed to represent love? Try answering the question for a change from Rose42 otherwise you are just a noise maker with no substance.
Dec 16, 2018 16:29:09 #
Dec 16, 2018 16:41:16 #
Rose42 wrote:
I'll be surprised if he answers. Is Doc a priest?
Could be, who knows, at least he hasn't tried to rape me, maybe he goes for little boys in his parish.
Dec 16, 2018 16:59:36 #
Rose
Again what is with your salacious anti-catholic lies . . .
you are the most ignorant person on the OPP website forum . . . what a heretic simpleton . . .
History proves you wrong again . . . That’s quite a fantastic allegation (to put it mildly and charitably),
11/10/2016The Inquisition: 50-68 million killed by the Church ?
Dave Armstrong
http://www.themichigancatholic.org/2016/11/inquisition-50-68-million-killed-church/
Apologetics Archives - Page 8 of 18 - The Michigan Catholic
www.themichigancatholic.org/catholicism/apologetics/page/8/
Non-Catholic Christians and the secular world have used the Inquisitions, the Crusades, and the Galileo incident as “clubs” to bash the Church for almost 500 years.
I did so myself, in my Protestant days. But such critics almost invariably distort (willingly or unwittingly) the known facts in order to do so.
One Reformed Protestant apologist, for example, referred on his website to
“the Inquisition where an estimated 50-68 million people were killed by Rome.”
That’s quite a fantastic allegation (to put it mildly and charitably), seeing that the entire population of Europe at its height in the Middle Ages is thought by scholars to have been between 100-120 million.
If true, that would mean the Church killed as many people as the Black Death (Bubonic Plague), which wiped out about a third to half the population.
I replied by asking him to give me the names of any reputable historians who asserted such absolutely ridiculous figures.
He said he knew of an Internet article that he couldn’t locate, by one David A. Plaisted, who turned out to be a professor of computer science;
Not an academic historian at all. Ultimately, when pressed, my friend offered no actual historian to back up his assertion, and the “debate” quickly descended from there.
On the other hand, there are many historians — even non-Catholic ones — and professors of history who offer vastly different opinions.
Edward Peters, from the University of Pennsylvania, author of Inquisition (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1989), and Henry Kamen, a Fellow of the Royal Historical Society and professor at the University of Wisconsin – Madison,
Who wrote The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1998), are two such scholars.
These two books are in the forefront of an emerging, very different perspective on the Inquisitions:
An understanding that they were exponentially less inclined to issue death penalties than had previously been commonly assumed, and also quite different in character and even essence than the longstanding anti-Catholic stereotypes would have us believe.
“The best estimate is that around 3,000 death sentences were carried out in Spain by Inquisitorial verdict between 1550 and 1800, a far smaller number than that in comparable secular courts,” Dr. Peters writes on page 87 of his book.
Likewise, Dr. Kamen writes: “Taking into account all the tribunals of Spain up to about 1530, it is unlikely that more than two thousand people were executed for heresy by the Inquisition (p. 60).
“It is clear,” he goes on, “that for most of its existence that Inquisition was far from being a juggernaut of death either in intention or in capability. …
It would seem that during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries fewer than three people a year were executed in the whole of the Spanish monarchy from Sicily to Peru, certainly a lower rate than in any provincial court of justice in Spain or anywhere else in Europe.”
(p. 203, emphasis added).
Huge myths obviously abound. But does this mean that I “defend” capital punishment for heresy, or that Catholics in general should?
No; personally, I advocate the tolerant practices of the early Church.
Yet I think it’s also supremely important to properly and accurately understand the Inquisitions in the context of their times (the Middle Ages and early modern periods).
In those eras, almost all Christians (not just Catholics; minus only a few small groups such as Anabaptists and Quakers) believed in both corporal and capital punishment for heresy, because they thought heresy was far more dangerous to a person and society than physical disease was.
Their premise, at least, was exactly right, as far as it goes: heresy can land one in hell; no disease could ever do that. How to deal with heresy is a separate, and very complex question.
In the Middle Ages, all heresy was pretty much regarded as obstinacy and in bad faith;
Evil will, etc. The Church today takes a much more psychologically nuanced approach: much heresy is (erroneously) believed in good faith; hence the adherent is less culpable and not guilty enough to be punished.
We’ve also learned the pointlessness of coercion regarding one’s religious beliefs.
This assumption of “bad faith” was the original Christian position, anyway, before heresy became wrapped up in civil disorder (such as in the cases of the Donatists, Monophysites, Arians and Albigensians, among others).
Be that as it may, some Protestants and other critics of the Catholic Church exercise a glaring double standard in condemning only the Catholic Church for engaging in this practice, and grotesquely exaggerating ludicrous numbers.
In reply, it must be noted that Protestants (including Luther, Calvin, the early English Protestants, Zwingli, Melanchthon, et al) have a long and troubling list of scandals and “inquisitions” as well.
As just one example among many, Martin Luther and John Calvin both sanctioned the execution of Anabaptists due to their belief in re-baptizing adults, which they considered to be “sedition.”
In addition, thousands of English and Irish Catholics were executed,
(Often in very hideous ways) simply for being Catholics and worshiping as their ancestors had done for 1,500 years. T
he execution of reputed “witches” (such as in the famous Salem Witch trials) was almost entirely a Protestant phenomenon as well.
In any case, it is clear that the notion of the death penalty for heresy was largely a product of the Middle Ages, and the Protestants who came at the end of that period did not, for the most part, dissent from it.
To utterly ignore these facts, while condemning the Catholic Church, is to engage in dishonest historical revisionism.
Here is what Charles Buck has first fabricated
The first appearance of the number "fifty million" that I can find is in Charles Buck,
A Theological Dictionary, Containing Definitions of All Religious Terms, 1836, in the article "Persecution":
It has been computed that fifty millions of Protestants have, at different times, been the victims of the persecutions of the Papists, and put to death for their religious opinions.
Unfortunately, Buck does not state where he gets this number. In his discussion of "Persecution of Christians by those of the same name",
In which he focuses exclusively on post-Reformation persecutions of Protestants by Catholics,
He mentions the Inquisition, the Dutch Revolt (not by that name), the French Wars of Religion (likewise not by that name), the English Reformation, the 1641 Irish Rebellion,
And unspecified slaughters by Catholics in Scotland and Spain (although it specifies that the Spanish killings it mentions are of Jews, Muslims, and "barbarians", not of Christians).
According to this source, which cites the "fifty million" number as well (and which refers to the statement by Buck),
Between fifty and sixty-eight million people (not necessarily all Protestants) were killed by "Inquisition", 1518 and later.
This apparently refers to the Roman Inquisition, although it could refer to the Spanish and perhaps the Portuguese Inquisitions as well.
This academic source states that relatively few of those tried by the Inquisitions were in fact executed;
Wikipedia estimates that the total number of people executed by the inquisition was probably between three and five thousand.
The Dutch Revolt appears to have killed between 50,000 and 100,000 people.
The French Wars of Religion probably killed about three million people (Wikipedia estimates between two and four million).
In the English Reformation, based on the Wikipedia list, fewer than 500 people were killed.
In the Irish Rebellion of 1641, about 112,000 Protestants were killed.
Wikipedia, citing an article in The Oxford Book of Scottish History, estimates that "over 1,500 people" were executed for witchcraft, of between 4,000 and 6,000 tried.
These numbers total well under 5 million.
While this amount is lamentable, it is nowhere near the fifty million cited.
Perhaps one could add the figures referred to in this source from
FaithAssemblyOnline.org, which includes the Albigensian Crusade and the Thirty Years' War.
It appears that scholarly estimates of the deaths from the Albigensian Crusade amount to between 100,000 and 1,000,000, roughly in agreement with the Faith Assembly source.
Wikipedia's article on the Thirty Years' War, however (citing Europe, A History by Norman Davis), estimates that it caused 8 million deaths on all sides.
Finally, since I am unable to find a good source for the number of deaths caused by the crusade against the Waldensians, let's assume that the number given in the Faith Assembly source (900,000) is correct.
These numbers total 14.5 million, nowhere near the 50 million.
Note several things:
This is a total of all self-described Christians whose deaths might be ascribed to the Catholic Church, whether they're considered precursors of Baptists or not.
In conflicts (the Dutch Revolt, the French War of Religion, the Thirty Years' War) for which separate numbers of Catholic and Protestant deaths were not given,
I assumed that all people killed were Protestants. This is almost certainly quite far from the truth.
This is the highest possible estimate I could get from the numbers; the low estimate (taking the lowest estimate of non-conflict casualties, and assuming that casualties from conflicts were about half Protestant and half Catholic)
Is about 4 million.
The conflicts were in part caused by religious divisions, but they were political events as much as if not more than religious events;
calling them "deaths caused by the Catholic Church" grossly misrepresents the causes and structure of the conflict, in my opinion.
Nevertheless, I have included them to attempt to inflate the numbers as much as possible.
Based on my review of both the sources which provide the "50 million" number, and the historical evidence regarding the events to which the sources allude,
I conclude that there is no historical reason whatsoever for believing that this number is anywhere close to accurate.
Again what is with your salacious anti-catholic lies . . .
you are the most ignorant person on the OPP website forum . . . what a heretic simpleton . . .
History proves you wrong again . . . That’s quite a fantastic allegation (to put it mildly and charitably),
11/10/2016The Inquisition: 50-68 million killed by the Church ?
Dave Armstrong
http://www.themichigancatholic.org/2016/11/inquisition-50-68-million-killed-church/
Apologetics Archives - Page 8 of 18 - The Michigan Catholic
www.themichigancatholic.org/catholicism/apologetics/page/8/
Non-Catholic Christians and the secular world have used the Inquisitions, the Crusades, and the Galileo incident as “clubs” to bash the Church for almost 500 years.
I did so myself, in my Protestant days. But such critics almost invariably distort (willingly or unwittingly) the known facts in order to do so.
One Reformed Protestant apologist, for example, referred on his website to
“the Inquisition where an estimated 50-68 million people were killed by Rome.”
That’s quite a fantastic allegation (to put it mildly and charitably), seeing that the entire population of Europe at its height in the Middle Ages is thought by scholars to have been between 100-120 million.
If true, that would mean the Church killed as many people as the Black Death (Bubonic Plague), which wiped out about a third to half the population.
I replied by asking him to give me the names of any reputable historians who asserted such absolutely ridiculous figures.
He said he knew of an Internet article that he couldn’t locate, by one David A. Plaisted, who turned out to be a professor of computer science;
Not an academic historian at all. Ultimately, when pressed, my friend offered no actual historian to back up his assertion, and the “debate” quickly descended from there.
On the other hand, there are many historians — even non-Catholic ones — and professors of history who offer vastly different opinions.
Edward Peters, from the University of Pennsylvania, author of Inquisition (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1989), and Henry Kamen, a Fellow of the Royal Historical Society and professor at the University of Wisconsin – Madison,
Who wrote The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1998), are two such scholars.
These two books are in the forefront of an emerging, very different perspective on the Inquisitions:
An understanding that they were exponentially less inclined to issue death penalties than had previously been commonly assumed, and also quite different in character and even essence than the longstanding anti-Catholic stereotypes would have us believe.
“The best estimate is that around 3,000 death sentences were carried out in Spain by Inquisitorial verdict between 1550 and 1800, a far smaller number than that in comparable secular courts,” Dr. Peters writes on page 87 of his book.
Likewise, Dr. Kamen writes: “Taking into account all the tribunals of Spain up to about 1530, it is unlikely that more than two thousand people were executed for heresy by the Inquisition (p. 60).
“It is clear,” he goes on, “that for most of its existence that Inquisition was far from being a juggernaut of death either in intention or in capability. …
It would seem that during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries fewer than three people a year were executed in the whole of the Spanish monarchy from Sicily to Peru, certainly a lower rate than in any provincial court of justice in Spain or anywhere else in Europe.”
(p. 203, emphasis added).
Huge myths obviously abound. But does this mean that I “defend” capital punishment for heresy, or that Catholics in general should?
No; personally, I advocate the tolerant practices of the early Church.
Yet I think it’s also supremely important to properly and accurately understand the Inquisitions in the context of their times (the Middle Ages and early modern periods).
In those eras, almost all Christians (not just Catholics; minus only a few small groups such as Anabaptists and Quakers) believed in both corporal and capital punishment for heresy, because they thought heresy was far more dangerous to a person and society than physical disease was.
Their premise, at least, was exactly right, as far as it goes: heresy can land one in hell; no disease could ever do that. How to deal with heresy is a separate, and very complex question.
In the Middle Ages, all heresy was pretty much regarded as obstinacy and in bad faith;
Evil will, etc. The Church today takes a much more psychologically nuanced approach: much heresy is (erroneously) believed in good faith; hence the adherent is less culpable and not guilty enough to be punished.
We’ve also learned the pointlessness of coercion regarding one’s religious beliefs.
This assumption of “bad faith” was the original Christian position, anyway, before heresy became wrapped up in civil disorder (such as in the cases of the Donatists, Monophysites, Arians and Albigensians, among others).
Be that as it may, some Protestants and other critics of the Catholic Church exercise a glaring double standard in condemning only the Catholic Church for engaging in this practice, and grotesquely exaggerating ludicrous numbers.
In reply, it must be noted that Protestants (including Luther, Calvin, the early English Protestants, Zwingli, Melanchthon, et al) have a long and troubling list of scandals and “inquisitions” as well.
As just one example among many, Martin Luther and John Calvin both sanctioned the execution of Anabaptists due to their belief in re-baptizing adults, which they considered to be “sedition.”
In addition, thousands of English and Irish Catholics were executed,
(Often in very hideous ways) simply for being Catholics and worshiping as their ancestors had done for 1,500 years. T
he execution of reputed “witches” (such as in the famous Salem Witch trials) was almost entirely a Protestant phenomenon as well.
In any case, it is clear that the notion of the death penalty for heresy was largely a product of the Middle Ages, and the Protestants who came at the end of that period did not, for the most part, dissent from it.
To utterly ignore these facts, while condemning the Catholic Church, is to engage in dishonest historical revisionism.
Here is what Charles Buck has first fabricated
The first appearance of the number "fifty million" that I can find is in Charles Buck,
A Theological Dictionary, Containing Definitions of All Religious Terms, 1836, in the article "Persecution":
It has been computed that fifty millions of Protestants have, at different times, been the victims of the persecutions of the Papists, and put to death for their religious opinions.
Unfortunately, Buck does not state where he gets this number. In his discussion of "Persecution of Christians by those of the same name",
In which he focuses exclusively on post-Reformation persecutions of Protestants by Catholics,
He mentions the Inquisition, the Dutch Revolt (not by that name), the French Wars of Religion (likewise not by that name), the English Reformation, the 1641 Irish Rebellion,
And unspecified slaughters by Catholics in Scotland and Spain (although it specifies that the Spanish killings it mentions are of Jews, Muslims, and "barbarians", not of Christians).
According to this source, which cites the "fifty million" number as well (and which refers to the statement by Buck),
Between fifty and sixty-eight million people (not necessarily all Protestants) were killed by "Inquisition", 1518 and later.
This apparently refers to the Roman Inquisition, although it could refer to the Spanish and perhaps the Portuguese Inquisitions as well.
This academic source states that relatively few of those tried by the Inquisitions were in fact executed;
Wikipedia estimates that the total number of people executed by the inquisition was probably between three and five thousand.
The Dutch Revolt appears to have killed between 50,000 and 100,000 people.
The French Wars of Religion probably killed about three million people (Wikipedia estimates between two and four million).
In the English Reformation, based on the Wikipedia list, fewer than 500 people were killed.
In the Irish Rebellion of 1641, about 112,000 Protestants were killed.
Wikipedia, citing an article in The Oxford Book of Scottish History, estimates that "over 1,500 people" were executed for witchcraft, of between 4,000 and 6,000 tried.
These numbers total well under 5 million.
While this amount is lamentable, it is nowhere near the fifty million cited.
Perhaps one could add the figures referred to in this source from
FaithAssemblyOnline.org, which includes the Albigensian Crusade and the Thirty Years' War.
It appears that scholarly estimates of the deaths from the Albigensian Crusade amount to between 100,000 and 1,000,000, roughly in agreement with the Faith Assembly source.
Wikipedia's article on the Thirty Years' War, however (citing Europe, A History by Norman Davis), estimates that it caused 8 million deaths on all sides.
Finally, since I am unable to find a good source for the number of deaths caused by the crusade against the Waldensians, let's assume that the number given in the Faith Assembly source (900,000) is correct.
These numbers total 14.5 million, nowhere near the 50 million.
Note several things:
This is a total of all self-described Christians whose deaths might be ascribed to the Catholic Church, whether they're considered precursors of Baptists or not.
In conflicts (the Dutch Revolt, the French War of Religion, the Thirty Years' War) for which separate numbers of Catholic and Protestant deaths were not given,
I assumed that all people killed were Protestants. This is almost certainly quite far from the truth.
This is the highest possible estimate I could get from the numbers; the low estimate (taking the lowest estimate of non-conflict casualties, and assuming that casualties from conflicts were about half Protestant and half Catholic)
Is about 4 million.
The conflicts were in part caused by religious divisions, but they were political events as much as if not more than religious events;
calling them "deaths caused by the Catholic Church" grossly misrepresents the causes and structure of the conflict, in my opinion.
Nevertheless, I have included them to attempt to inflate the numbers as much as possible.
Based on my review of both the sources which provide the "50 million" number, and the historical evidence regarding the events to which the sources allude,
I conclude that there is no historical reason whatsoever for believing that this number is anywhere close to accurate.
Rose42 wrote:
br br You still haven't answered them Doc. Why a... (show quote)
Dec 16, 2018 17:10:32 #
YOU ARE STILL DUCKING THE QUESTIONS DOC.
Look for something other than Catholic apologists. The historical evidence is not on Dave Armstrong's side and Mr. Armstrong is incorrect on many matters concerning theology. I've read a lot of his stuff and he's less than honest in many of his pieces.
The number could even be higher than 50 million.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/122890407/Estimates-of-the-Number-Killed-by-the-Papacy-David-A-Plaisted
Bottom line - you're still ducking the questions.
Look for something other than Catholic apologists. The historical evidence is not on Dave Armstrong's side and Mr. Armstrong is incorrect on many matters concerning theology. I've read a lot of his stuff and he's less than honest in many of his pieces.
The number could even be higher than 50 million.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/122890407/Estimates-of-the-Number-Killed-by-the-Papacy-David-A-Plaisted
Bottom line - you're still ducking the questions.
Dec 17, 2018 02:32:50 #
Rose42 wrote:
b YOU ARE STILL DUCKING THE QUESTIONS DOC. /b br... (show quote)
From beginning to 1954 over 100 million and I have it well documented several times.
Currently the world court is going after poop francis in regards to 350, 000 mass Graves of children discovered in three countries all on Roman Catholic church properties. Many are believed to be victims of sacrifice, rape used in black masses.
I just uncovered a world wide Satanist organization that to move up the ranks the men have to be ordained priest in the Roman Catholic church. This has been going on for centuries and buried from the public eye, but known to many nations governments. Just as Bush's, Hillary,..... Long list are involved to satanic organizations and Bush is tied to the Vatican.... Oh it gets even deeper...
Doc110 can only recite Roman Catholic apologists with false documents and twisted unbiblical scripture - oral traditions. You never, never will get an answer why the "true" church (satanic Roman Catholic church) murdered Christians for not believing in their doctrine. Our God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob gives free will, the satanic Roman Catholic church imposes its will.
Piles, mountains of "EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE" proving Satan is at the helm.
God Bless you,
Dec 17, 2018 09:57:06 #
jack sequim wa wrote:
From beginning to 1954 over 100 million and I have... (show quote)
Very good Jack thanks for the info.
Dec 17, 2018 10:04:08 #
jack sequim wa wrote:
From beginning to 1954 over 100 million and I have... (show quote)
I see a number of threads have been taken down by Admin or somebody maybe someone complained or something. What do you think?
Dec 17, 2018 10:19:17 #
bahmer wrote:
I see a number of threads have been taken down by Admin or somebody maybe someone complained or something. What do you think?
Some want this to be a forum solely for Doc's prodigious spam. By trying to dominate with Catholic apologetics he shows a profound disregard for everyone else. Some of the more outrageous posts SHOULD be challenged. Unfortunately some can't differentiate between doctrinal criticism and personal attacks.
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.