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Economics 101: tax base explained.
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Oct 26, 2017 05:47:58   #
buffalo Loc: Texas
 
Ve'hoe wrote:
I guess it wouldnt but who wants to live in a box????


Why does the left think that is an answer?


Come on, Ve'hoe, the point wasn't people living in cardboard boxes.

Reply
Oct 26, 2017 06:32:08   #
Loki Loc: Georgia
 
buffalo wrote:
Come on, Ve'hoe, the point wasn't people living in cardboard boxes.


Whe I was in College my apartment wasn't much bigger than that. (Come to think of it, I've spent a couple of nights in jail in a cell no bigger than that.)

Reply
Oct 26, 2017 07:18:28   #
buffalo Loc: Texas
 
buffalo wrote:
Come on, Ve'hoe, the point wasn't people living in cardboard boxes.


Everybody pays taxes. The working poor might not pay any federal INCOME taxes, but do pay state taxes, property taxes, payroll taxes, sales taxes, gas taxes, all sorts of fee-based taxes, etc. Most likely making their effective tax rate higher than the 10th guy who paid 59% of the bill but makes 75% of the money.

The analogy doesn't include the Social Security/Medicare/Medicaid tax. In this case, it would be like having to pay a tip to the bartender... but only on the first $9 of your bill, regardless of who pays your bill. Even if the rich guy pays for the beer the bottom 4 are drinking (say, $10 worth), the bottom 4 still have to pay a tip on the $10.

If all 10 guys have to pay a $5 cover charge to get into the bar, this obviously means that the bottom 4 aren't really drinking for free... they paid to get in there, and they paid a much higher percentage of their income than the rich guys.

Let's not forget that the amount of beer being drunk is not equal. If the 10th guy is paying 59% of the bill and getting 75% of the beer, that's not exactly fair either. Remember, the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer, so even though the bottom 4 guys are drinking for free, the 10th guy is actually stealing the beer from their fridges at home.

Finally, the analogy doesn't take into account that the 10th guy benefits enormously from taxes paid. Wh**ever his source of income, he's benefited substantially from taxpayer-funded physical and educational infrastructure.

The freeloaders are at the top, not at the bottom. I'm middle class, retired but still paying taxes and my way without complaint (and happy that my taxes help other people out), and nobody's victim.

Reply
 
 
Oct 26, 2017 08:01:46   #
NUKE
 
Lets take the constant recurring income tax issues off the table once and for all by replacing our current production based tax penalty system with a consumption tax penalty by implementation of "The Fair Tax." This would eliminate the IRS terrorists and their controlling tax code and place the tax burden on those who benefit the most from the maximum consumption in this country. Continual revisions of the current tax code are superficial and only temporary until the next administration. This pending "Fair Tax" bill has been locked up in Congress review committee for over 11 years and would finally t***sform our tax system into a workable program while eventually reducing the deficit to a surplus simultaneously. This would create the largest ongoing economic boom the world has ever seen with no end in sight because finally surplus revenue would be continually increasing raising the tide of economic prosperity for everyone.

popparod wrote:
Read this the other day and it makes sense and bears repeating.


Think about it the next time someone complains that the rich people get the lion's share of a tax cut.

Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:



The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.



The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20"Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.



The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?'


They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.


So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.



And so:



The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).



Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.



"I only got a dollar out of the $20,"declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man," but he got $10!"



"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!"



"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"



"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"



The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.



The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!



And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible
Read this the other day and it makes sense and bea... (show quote)

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Oct 26, 2017 08:30:18   #
popparod Loc: Somewhere else.
 
NUKE wrote:
Lets take the constant recurring income tax issues off the table once and for all by replacing our current production based tax penalty system with a consumption tax penalty by implementation of "The Fair Tax." This would eliminate the IRS terrorists and their controlling tax code and place the tax burden on those who benefit the most from the maximum consumption in this country. Continual revisions of the current tax code are superficial and only temporary until the next administration. This pending "Fair Tax" bill has been locked up in Congress review committee for over 11 years and would finally t***sform our tax system into a workable program while eventually reducing the deficit to a surplus simultaneously. This would create the largest ongoing economic boom the world has ever seen with no end in sight because finally surplus revenue would be continually increasing raising the tide of economic prosperity for everyone.
Lets take the constant recurring income tax issues... (show quote)



The only “fair” tax system in this country is a 10% flat tax.
If you make a dollar, you owe the government a dime.
No exceptions, no deductions for anything.
It would eliminate the IRS and put every tax lawyer in the US in the unemployment line.
The reason it won’t happen is because of corruption in the District of Criminals.

Reply
Oct 26, 2017 08:30:20   #
buffalo Loc: Texas
 
NUKE wrote:
Lets take the constant recurring income tax issues off the table once and for all by replacing our current production based tax penalty system with a consumption tax penalty by implementation of "The Fair Tax." This would eliminate the IRS terrorists and their controlling tax code and place the tax burden on those who benefit the most from the maximum consumption in this country. Continual revisions of the current tax code are superficial and only temporary until the next administration. This pending "Fair Tax" bill has been locked up in Congress review committee for over 11 years and would finally t***sform our tax system into a workable program while eventually reducing the deficit to a surplus simultaneously. This would create the largest ongoing economic boom the world has ever seen with no end in sight because finally surplus revenue would be continually increasing raising the tide of economic prosperity for everyone.
Lets take the constant recurring income tax issues... (show quote)


Utter BS! A consumption tax (really just a sales tax) would be extremely regressive hurting the middle and poor classes and "UNFAIR" as hell because it punishes people for spending. Income tax is the only "Fair Tax" because it is the only tax based solely on ability to pay. How much would the "consumption tax" need to be to replace the income tax? 20%-30%?

Why are i***ts constantly looking for ways to punish the middle and poor classes while thinking the wealthy are being treated "Unfairly"?

Reply
Oct 26, 2017 08:37:28   #
buffalo Loc: Texas
 
popparod wrote:
The only “fair” tax system in this country is a 10% flat tax.
If you make a dollar, you owe the government a dime.
No exceptions, no deductions for anything.
It would eliminate the IRS and put every tax lawyer in the US in the unemployment line.
The reason it won’t happen is because of corruption in the District of Criminals.


An excellent idea, poppard! But allow families to earn enough to live on before we tax any income. Say 12,000/year/per family member. In other words, a family of 4 could make $48,000/ and owe no tax. And ALL income whether earned or ,especially, the unearned incomes of the wealthy must be taxed the same.

Damn the wealthy 1% would scream. LOL

Reply
 
 
Oct 26, 2017 09:03:09   #
NUKE
 
You have obviously missed the point of "The Fair Tax" proposal in congress review committee drafted after the book "The Fair Tax." Read the book and you will be enlightened that any flat tax is still a penalty on production and keeps the IRS in place to monitor and collect income taxes, and does not tax consumption which is where all taxation should be focused to be truly a functional and reliable mechanism for adequate government financial support without putting an unduly tax burden on specific segments of the citizenry. Any suggestion to modify the existing production tax code is simply perpetuating a broken production tax system that needs to finally be replaced and not continually altered adnausium while it continues to disproportionately create gratuitous financial suffering.

popparod wrote:
The only “fair” tax system in this country is a 10% flat tax.
If you make a dollar, you owe the government a dime.
No exceptions, no deductions for anything.
It would eliminate the IRS and put every tax lawyer in the US in the unemployment line.
The reason it won’t happen is because of corruption in the District of Criminals.

Reply
Oct 26, 2017 09:08:41   #
NUKE
 
Your ignorance is underwhelming. The proposed "Fair Tax" system incorporates within it provisions for tax spending credits to compensate the below poverty level incomes. Please before you make asinine comments on something you know nothing about educate yourself so at minimum your comments will be from an informed mental state and not from total ignorance.

buffalo wrote:
Utter BS! A consumption tax (really just a sales tax) would be extremely regressive hurting the middle and poor classes and "UNFAIR" as hell because it punishes people for spending. Income tax is the only "Fair Tax" because it is the only tax based solely on ability to pay. How much would the "consumption tax" need to be to replace the income tax? 20%-30%?

Why are i***ts constantly looking for ways to punish the middle and poor classes while thinking the wealthy are being treated "Unfairly"?
Utter BS! A consumption tax (really just a sales t... (show quote)

Reply
Oct 26, 2017 09:13:06   #
NUKE
 
You have obviously missed the point of "The Fair Tax" proposal in congress review committee drafted after the book "The Fair Tax." Read the book and you will be enlightened that any flat tax is still a penalty on production and keeps the IRS in place to monitor and collect income taxes, and does not tax consumption which is where all taxation should be focused to be truly a functional and reliable mechanism for adequate government financial support without putting an unduly tax burden on specific segments of the citizenry. Any suggestion to modify the existing production tax code is simply perpetuating a broken production tax system that needs to finally be replaced and not continually altered adnausium while it continues to disproportionately create gratuitous financial suffering.

buffalo wrote:
Utter BS! A consumption tax (really just a sales tax) would be extremely regressive hurting the middle and poor classes and "UNFAIR" as hell because it punishes people for spending. Income tax is the only "Fair Tax" because it is the only tax based solely on ability to pay. How much would the "consumption tax" need to be to replace the income tax? 20%-30%?

Why are i***ts constantly looking for ways to punish the middle and poor classes while thinking the wealthy are being treated "Unfairly"?
Utter BS! A consumption tax (really just a sales t... (show quote)

Reply
Oct 26, 2017 09:19:18   #
Ve'hoe
 
Sorry then,,,, because I dont actually see the "other point" unless you think the govt OWES people,,,,,,


Fact is that the cardboard bx IS what the govt will give you,,,,,,, nothing more,,,, ever been to a reservation??


buffalo wrote:
Come on, Ve'hoe, the point wasn't people living in cardboard boxes.

Reply
 
 
Oct 26, 2017 09:21:07   #
Ve'hoe
 
well,,, it is like my father said,,, you cannot pay one crook to save you from another,,,,,

we shouldnt be having crooks make our laws or tax codes

NUKE wrote:
Your ignorance is underwhelming. The proposed "Fair Tax" system incorporates within it provisions for tax spending credits to compensate the below poverty level incomes. Please before you make asinine comments on something you know nothing about educate yourself so at minimum your comments will be from an informed mental state and not from total ignorance.

Reply
Oct 26, 2017 09:23:35   #
Ve'hoe
 
I see your point,,,, however like NUKE is saying,,, when you give the congress the power to punish a member of society for his success,
earnings, or situation,,,,,,,,, they have the power then to punish you, and that is what is happening.......

Fair,,, not punitive to anyone..... I really think EVERYONE should pay taxes,,,, even those on public assistance,,,,,,

No skin in the game,,,,, and they dont care what happens


buffalo wrote:
An excellent idea, poppard! But allow families to earn enough to live on before we tax any income. Say 12,000/year/per family member. In other words, a family of 4 could make $48,000/ and owe no tax. And ALL income whether earned or ,especially, the unearned incomes of the wealthy must be taxed the same.

Damn the wealthy 1% would scream. LOL

Reply
Oct 26, 2017 09:36:21   #
buffalo Loc: Texas
 
NUKE wrote:
Your ignorance is underwhelming. The proposed "Fair Tax" system incorporates within it provisions for tax spending credits to compensate the below poverty level incomes. Please before you make asinine comments on something you know nothing about educate yourself so at minimum your comments will be from an informed mental state and not from total ignorance.


My ignorance? Hahaha! See, now you start putting provisions aimed at healping the "poor" and pretty soon there will be a need for a bureaucracy the size or bigger than the IRS to enforce and over see all the special provisions. What percent is your "Fair Tax" going to have to be to make up for the loss of income tax revenue all the rich pay? 20%-30%, higher? Who is going to collect the "Fair Tax"? The sales tax (which is what a consumption tax really is) in Texas requires a huge bureaucracy (State Comptroller's office) just to collect, enforce and administer sales taxes and other taxes. Take the Texas motor vehicle registration fees (which are in essence a tax)--whether you have a Cadillac (rich) or clunker (poor) the registration fee is the same every year. That is not a fair "tax"

I predict the underground, black market, bartering economy, wh**ever, would explode to avoid the "Fair Tax".

A tax on income is the only way a tax can be "Fair" because it is based on the ability to pay.

A flat tax, after exemptions for basic cost living, of 10% would be more "Fair".

Reply
Oct 26, 2017 09:40:07   #
Ve'hoe
 
agree to a point,,,, get rid of the IRS,,, however,, what to do,, with freeloaders and c***ts??

buffalo wrote:
My ignorance? Hahaha! See, now you start putting provisions aimed at healping the "poor" and pretty soon there will be a need for a bureaucracy the size or bigger than the IRS to enforce and over see all the special provisions. What percent is your "Fair Tax" going to have to be to make up for the loss of income tax revenue all the rich pay? 20%-30%, higher? Who is going to collect the "Fair Tax"? The sales tax (which is what a consumption tax really is) in Texas requires a huge bureaucracy (State Comptroller's office) just to collect, enforce and administer sales taxes and other taxes. Take the Texas motor vehicle registration fees (which are in essence a tax)--whether you have a Cadillac (rich) or clunker (poor) the registration fee is the same every year. That is not a fair "tax"

I predict the underground, black market, bartering economy, wh**ever, would explode to avoid the "Fair Tax".

A flat tax, after exemptions for basic cost living, of 10% would be more "Fair".
My ignorance? Hahaha! See, now you start putting p... (show quote)

Reply
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