Tasmine thanks for the list. As I read through them I found many of them to be questionable, possible misinterpretations and stretched ambiguity, such as "boots on the ground" a phrase frequently used to refer to actual ground troops, as in infantry, not spotters. Seriously, that's just being pedantic.

Some of them just seem out of context and kind of, well... pointless. Such as "I won Michigan" Well, he DID win Michigan in 2008 AND in 2012. You have that down as a lie?

I think when developing these cases, you have to understand the target. If you're just trying to rile up the conservatives then long but shallow (as in very little backing) lists are perfect because all you're doing is telling them what they already want to hear, so they don't need any backing. And with a long list you can say things like "His fib count is up to 300! He really is a jerk!"

But see, if your trying to prove anything to someone like me you would do much better with just a few samples that are backed up with a solid proof.

It's late and I need to get to bed, but I'll check out your link tomorrow and I will stay tuned into this thread. Please don't assume that I'm just going to deny any proof you have. I am actually asking you to prove to me that he the liar you all say he is. I just personally haven't found that evidence.

I know Clinton lied and quite frankly, I don't see how any politician can actually succeed without making promises and ALL promises are prone to failure. It's the nature of politics. I just haven't seen (from Obama) any proof of intentional and malicious lying about issues with serious consequences such as the lies Bush told Congress to get them agree to a freaking war.

I did say I support Obama but that doesn't mean I'm married to him and unlike you and Louis, I don't go on feelings and suspicions. I wait for facts. Sorry for the accusation but you DID say you "suspect" all the items are true and you did say that Louis "may not have available all the info he needs to dig up any evidence of lying" and yet he seems to feel very strongly that Obama has "done nothing but lie since he took office".

'Gotta say, you guys make it real hard for me to believe that this is anything but a hatefest. I came here looking to expand my understanding through intellectual discussion. Maybe I just came at a bad time? Hit the wrong threads?

Seriously? OK... Sorry, I *thought* that point was so obvious that I could be sarcastic about how childish it was.

sock puppets... Is that really the level of intellect here?

Roy, I didn't list the magazine, I listed a book written by the editor of the magazine. As for the magazine itself, I'm not sure if you really read it. It's primarily conservative but it's based in the UK, which means... 1) it may not align perfectly with the narrow band of American conservative extremism that you're probably used to and 2) it probably isn't bent on swaying Americans one way or another on the IRS.

Not trying to be a smart ass but do you actually read stuff or do you just gloss through to see if it "feels" lefty? You ask if there is a chance I never believed in the 2nd Amendment and yet I stated quite clearly at the start that I always have.

Do you disagree with my description of the 2nd Amendment's purpose?
Do you disagree with my assessment that assault weapons alone are no match for the strongest military force in the world?
Do you disagree with my assertion that the government has more effective ways of controlling the masses than gun battles?

What exactly do you find so "left-leaning" about any of this?

Wow!
This is a brilliant example of how much fluff conservative papers kick up without any solid facts. Paragraphs of statements like...

"White House press corps yesterday raked Jay Carney over the coals over various lies and evasions, prompting Megyn Kelley of Fox News to quip, "What's happened?"

... yeah, what lies? Where are the details?


"disillusioned and angry liberals who are starting to grasp that they have been lied to, who realize that a skeptical stance is necessary when examining a narrative offered by team Obama on Benghazi or the IRS scandal"

... details? facts?


"Obama's just not behaving like the good guy they thought him to be. Awkward questions of character are being raised in their minds."

... what questions?

Then it goes into an example of how a picture can be seen in two different ways using that image of an old/young lady that we've all seen a million times that has NOTHING to do with Obama's supposed lies... but thanks for the art lesson.

Seriously, is this all they got?

Not only that but the conservatives didn't set a very good precedence with their crap about Obama not being born in the US. because Hawaii wasn't a state. Normal people we're all blown away by the ignorance of THAT assault (quick fact check - Obama born in 1961, Hawaii became a state in 1959) Hellooooo...?

And what gave me a special grin was this...

"...while among conservatives, as exemplified over the years at American Thinker, a decidedly more negative interpretation of the biographical facts emerged"

...yeah, American Thinker is exemplary conservative? Ya think?
Don't really see much thinking but OK.

Then it lists a bunch of general topics related to accusations of deciet authored by a list of conservatives... Well, to be honest, that really doesn't tell me much I don't already know... Let's see, a bunch of conservatives are writing about what a liar Obama is. Yep, big news there. :thumbup:

All this and not one simple quote from Obama that has been proven or even officially reported to be lie. Not ONE.

For those who don't know... THIS is a quote...

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."
George W. Bush
March 17, 2003

Intelligence that was never exposed, never supported by any proof and in fact DENIED by UN monitors AND the CIA in officially submitted reports. Not just a bunch of liberal papers.

Don't know what else to tell you... Black and white folks... Proove it or make me laugh even even more, because there is nothing funnier than a bunch of Bush appologists tripping over themselves to make a strawman out of Obama.

Hot mics are "f-ed" up. It's like wiretapping... People and even legistaltors need downtime to air their thoughts and emotions about issues privately or they simply won't be able to function effectivley. Remember when Reagan was caught on a hot mic saying "bomb the Russians?" The liberals were all outraged, but he was obviously joking, though he wouldn't have said it if he knew he was live.

As far as the issue goes, I have always been on the side of keeping our guns and I've been a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment. But recently, I've been reconsidering my position.

Here's my thinking... (and this only applies to what can be called assault weapons)

1. The point of the 2nd Amendment is to allow citizens the ability to form armed opposition to the U.S. military. Most IRA folks will say "the government" because it's easier to hate them, but seriosly folks the arm of the government that we would need guns to protect ourselves from is the U.S. military and the U.S. military HAS been used in the past to subdue American citizens.

Update to the 21st century...
2. The U.S. Military is the product of a vast military-industrial complex, fed with tax-dollars it's the largest volume of socialized money fed through any industry in the world. In 2003 the U.S. "defense" budget was bigger than all of the other military budgets in the world put together* and the result is a miltary force against which any collection of fat-ass civilians aren't going to make so much as a dent with their gun-show purchases alone. A study of civilian and paramilitary conflicts with the U.S. military shows that insurgents do routinely win but only because these non-military advesaries are foreign people who are nearly insane with hardship and desperation - not so with the American people - not even the dreaded NRA members.

3. If our democracy is ever shut down and tyranny takes over Washington, there will be far more sophisticated ways to control the masses. There are already provisions in the form of executive orders (that have been around for decades BTW) that allow for the constitution to be suspended in times of crises and for the government to take control of transportation, supply chains and even the power grid. The government could potentially starve people to death in a city without sending in so much as a single solider or even a drone. A year later there will be skeletons of loosers clenching their stupid guns.

4. This may not sound as "fun" or as dramatic as blowing off ammo, but a much more effective defense is off-the-grid forms of energy and communications and local sources of food and water. Guns will become useful only for hunting and defense against other hungry civilians.

So... what value does the 2nd Amendment leave us with? At this point I would say defense against the government is a stupid answer and that's probably why some of the Democrats have been heared saying "they just like to have guns". Honestly, it's about the only intelligent answer left.

...and is that worth the obvious risks?

* The United States of Europe - T.R. Read (Editor of Economist Magazine) Good read.

Louis,

Wake up... yes, indeed... 'Seems we are both saying the same thing to each other. ;)

Sorry to hear about your unemployment. I realize that's an issue for a lot of people. Thank you for reminding me how fortunate I am to be working. Even more fortunate that I enjoy it.

Maybe you can work on showing me where Obama has lied? :)
So far I've seen a tons of griping about his "lying" but I haven't seen a shred of evidence.

Oh and one point regarding your assertion that he has not been good for this country. In my intro I made it pretty clear what I think about that statement... "good for the country"... That this country is filled with conflicting interests means that maybe Obama hasn't been good for you personally, but for me and my family he's been a God-send.

Thank you Tasine :)

Hi... I'm a software engineer and a traditional family man, meaning I bring home the bacon and my wife takes care of the home. My children never had to go to day care and I had to work hard to compete on the consumer market with a single income to keep it that way.

I am disgusted with the way today's conservative leaders use the term "family values" to promote their profit-driven agenda and sorely disappointed with the way so many of today's conservative voters can't figure out the ruse and refuse to try because they think political affiliation is an identity factor instead of a transient direction.

When asked if I lean left or right I say it depends on which direction I think our nation needs to turn to avoid crashing. In 1980 I was saying "veer right", but now, especially since Bush, I am screaming "hard left!" ...because we ARE crashing and I believe it's because of the last 30 years of rightward leaning. Starting with Nixon and his dismissal of the gold standard.

If I had one wish it would be that people would look at issues objectively. Which means listen to all sides of an argument, tune into sources of information from all perspectives and realize that politics and government are a means to an end not the end itself.

I don't believe there is any validity to the moronic phrase, "what's good for America" because America is populated with conflicting interests. I think the nation is too big for one government. It doesn't work in China, it really doesn't work in India, it didn't work for the Soviets and it's not working here.

I believe Americans have the rapid exploitation of vast resources to thank for their living standards which unfortunately is not sustainable and that economic and political systems have very little to do with it.

I do not think that business leadership and government leadership is the same thing. Business leaders are focused in balance sheets... Government leaders should be focused on human conditions as expressed by our democracy. So far, the businessmen that have taken high level office have shown themselves to be utter failures concerning human conditions. I think we do much better with leaders who studied law.

I am concerned that the current distaste for government, though understandable, translates to our abandonment of democracy and I think Citizens United is a nail in that coffin. Our future should not be auctioned off to the highest bidder.

I'm tired of hearing about the "nanny-state" from the the political affiliations that are supporting and populating the largest prison system in the world. This prison system IS a government funded welfare system and conservatives have insured that we spend more money on that than we do on education. And no, I am not a free-loader, my income is in the top 10% but I have no problem supporting others in less fortunate situations. To me it's an honor to be part of a system that cares for it's sick and hungry and I don't get pissed off because I think I'm being taken advantage of by poor people - all that matters to me is that I've done my part. I'm embarrassed by those who whine and cry about having to contribute their precious money to such an admirable system.

I have the highest regard for charity, but I know that in the aggregate, this county is more hungry than it is charitable so if we want to call ourselves a nation that doesn't let it's citizen die in the streets then we need a fair ante system across the board. You want to sit at the table? Ante up.

I support Obama because I think he had the right ideas but a president can't accomplish much if the opposition party refuses to cooperate, especially when he is handed the reins of an out-of-control team of horses, driven to hysteria by the previous leader.... who I would like to see impeached.

(yes, you can impeach a president who is no longer in office and there are benefits to doing so)

I am not a communist but I will say that true communism has yet to be implemented ANYWHERE. It's a pipe dream that's been used by several tyrannical systems to gain popular support the same way Islam is used by tyrannical factions in the ME for the same purpose and "God and Country" is used by tyrannical ambitions here in this country.

OK... I'm done ranting.

Just one note. I recognize that every human in the world really wants the same thing... to be happy and secure and that most arguments come from conflicting ideas about how to attain that.

I look forward to learning from the people on this site.