Worried for our children wrote:
Cheaper yes, better, that would be an emphatic NO!
Just in the north east (New England) alone, has the best hospitals in the whole world. With your reasoning, explain why it is that med. students from around the world choose this place out of the choices available, to be educated in, and practice medicine?.... I'll answer for you, because it's the best. As in second to none.
But all that can and most assuredly will change, if you all believe the likes of "eden" and co. The ACA will be the straw that breaks this country's back, and brings us to third world status. May God help us.
Cheaper yes, better, that would be an emphatic NO!... (
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There is such a thing as "informed opinion" and then there is the common
variety of opinion that we all have. Are you a medical person with personal experience plus substantiated data to back your assertion? I was a paramedic.
Wife was a GP. Want to hear more? Don't make the mistake of thinking I support ACA in it's current form but constantly wanking about it with no suggestion for improvement or a viable replacement is just blowing smoke.
bmac32 wrote:
Many Americans go off shore for price but the numbers in vs the numbers out are likely 8 to 1. Woman next door went to have a skin graf when she came back it's three colors. She save $4000 to have it done wrong.
You missed my point but that's ok (sigh) Something like 80,000 people a year die of iatrogenic causes in the US. (Doctor or hospital caused fatality) So much for the 'best".
bmac32 wrote:
Then pray tell why do citizens of other countries come here when they can get here?
Not usually for medical. You can get cheaper and in some cases better quality care in places like Bali or Thailand. Charlie Rose elected to have his heart surgery in France. It is unfortunate that almost every institution in this country
from the Government, Media, Military, Churches, are prone to peddle this propaganda that everything in America is the greatest, the best, the biggest,
the grandest, yada yada yada. Unfortunately some of this stuff just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. The idea too that America is the cradle of personal freedom and democracy too is fallacious (but that is an arguement for another forum.)
Hmmm....I would question that the US has the finest medical in the world.
Some of the best medical technology yes but in terms of the medical delivery to it's citizens it is one of the worst in the western world.
Old_Gringo wrote:
Another of dear eden's fallacies.
This a quote from a congressional hearing in 1993 by Heritages Stuart Butler
"This translates into a requirement on individuals to enroll themselves and their dependents in at least a basic health plan one that at the minimum should protect the rest of society from large and unexpected medical costs incurred by the family. And as any social contract, there would also be an obligation on society. To the extent that the family cannot reasonably afford reasonable basic coverage, the rest of society, via government, should take responsibility for financing that minimum coverage."
The Heritage plan was in response to the Clinton plan (so called "Hillarycare")
While it is true that many Conservatives particularly Libertarian Conservatives
always opposed the individual mandate many got on board with the whole plan. Obama thought he was clever by co-opting this plan believing that would get enough GOP votes to pass it and he would get the credit, but the latter is just my speculation. Odd though when you see the above quote "VIA GOVERNMENT". How things have changed in the post Obama anti-government Conservative movement.
banjojack wrote:
Did you not hear eden? Civility has taken a permanent vacation? I suppose eden considers BJ's ceaseless stream of insults polite and informative.
I am indifferent to party affiliation or entity but I call it the way I see it.
If you read my previous posts personal abuse is not useful from either side.
The enduring tragedy of America is this; on 911 those people were running down the street with that horrific dust cloud descending on them, people falling down in the rubble and being helped by police, firemen and passersby.
In all the footage I never saw someone offer then refuse assistance because the person was a "libtard" or a "repuglican". Have we descended so far from a sense of "we are all americans?" We can disagree and even strongly disagree but it does not have to descend into the gutter of invective and name calling.
Do we need a national calamity like 911 to make us behave like reasonable adults and set aside our (mostly) petty grievances?
I think some behavior is disgusting and worthless but if I start labeling
people disgusting and worthless then I have lost the connection to the others point of view, and worst of all I stop learning about the other person and I stop learning about myself.
BoJester wrote:
Excellent point Eden, and I for one would gladly put aside my partisanship, however I will not tolerate the constant Obama bashing just because he is president. Disagree with his policies if you must, but denigrating or his wife should be off limits.
I agree. Civility seems to be on permanent vacation. I do not agree with the actions of many pols on both sides but I see no need to pass judgements on the persons worth as a human being just because they say something I disagree with. As for denigrating their families and children that is absolutely the most tasteless low class behavior. I was taught in the military that you are saluting an officers commission not the man under the cap and rank insignia. Same should be for the President. Due courtesy and respect should be extended to the office regardless of who holds it. Calling the President a Liar in the house chamber is nothing but punk behavior and only served to give the opposition GOP a political black eye. I used to be a teacher and as any teacher knows, little children yell at each other that they are DUMB as a way of demonstrating their lack of an effective response to a problem or frustration.
The GOP need to sever the rotten limb of the right wing crazies, cauterize and and get their act together if they have any hope of being a viable political institution.
Maybe andrew998 was making a point about all the angry hostile musket rattling that comes from the far right. This should be a place for diverse opinion and vigorous debate but can we leave out the personal abuse and thinly veiled threats? I would ask this of all sides but it appears impressionistically at least to be coming mostly from the far right.
BoJester wrote:
Is it possible for conservatards to ever tell the truth? I think not. You comments about Baucus, for instance, hav e NOTHING to do with the law, but with the way the information to the public is being released to the public.
The entire concept of 'mandatory' healthcare came from the conservatard thin tank Heritage foundation, under the guise of making everyone personally responsible.
Read the following and lern something correct for a change.
Who actually wrote the affordable care act?
Answers:
--Many people:
Healthy policy research experts, economists, pharmaceutical executives, insurance executives, some in Congress who have expertise in medical field, financial planners, hospital administrators, physicians, lawyers, Dept of HHS, Centers for CMS and other government agencies had input into designing the legislation.
--The Heritage Foundation, which is a conservative Republican think tank. They came up with the plan of private health insurance with a mandate forcing every one to buy personal coverage. This was intended to be the Republican response to Clinton's call for National Health coverage in the early 1990s. However all the squabbling led to nothing even though Republicans had control of congress. The plan was later championed by Mitt Romney when he was governor of Massachusetts and it was enacted with great success. More than 90% of the public responded to the mandate. The federal version or ACA was accepted by the first Democratic congress under Obama on the idea that Republicans would sign on. Of course the Republicans were more interested in defeating Obama for his second term than to vote for a good measure like health care, so despite being the "Republican Plan" it was passed with no Republican votes. The federal plan has more impact than just the Massachusetts plan because it also deals with Medicaid and Medicare issues that needed attention as well.
Is it possible for conservatards to ever tell the ... (
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Thank you Bo Jester for reinforcing my post. Regardless of political affiliation
we need to hang the facts in the air and let the chips fall where they may.
If John McCain had won the 08 election and introduced the same Heritage Plan in some form or another with the mandate that came with it, would that be labeled socialized health care?
What nobody seems to understand is that America has always had a de facto universal health care system. It is called the Emergency Room. Indigent people with no insurance head for this every time they have a nosebleed. They get billed for the ER services but if they have no money you can't get blood from a stone so the tax payers of that county or city end up paying the hospital running costs through property taxes etc. Sounds like socialism to me.
(The irony is palpable.) Obamacare is a clumsy attempt to address this mess but I see no better idea from the right at the moment. Greta Van Susteren of Fox News(?) was interviewing one of the baying hounds in the GOP one night
and after patiently listening to his usual anti Obamacare rant for 5 minutes suddenly asked in a rare moment of clarity "and what is the Republican Health Care plan?"...After a stunned silence the ranter quickly changed the subject.
Anybody out there care to enlighten me? WHAT IS THE REPUBLICAN HEALTH CARE PLAN?
Correct about how "they" work for us. So called "Obamacare" is based on a Universal Healthcare Plan formulated by the Heritage Foundation, a Conservative Think Tank.
Yes Obamacare is a colossal mess but America has not overlooked the obvious : What is the answer to the need for affordable health care?
The dems screwed the poodle in their usual inept fashion but the repubs
have clawed their way to the bottom with their kneejerk junk yard dog response to every idea put forward if it involves the government in any way shape or form despite the fact that Medicare is by any measure a form of socialized medicine.
Ok we get it. You don't like Obamacare. In all these posts I have not seen a single constructive idea put forward to address the real problem.
Just a bunch of childish musket rattling about the kenyan-pretender bleep bleep and how when his hordes arrive at your door you will settle his socialist hash. I need to see some constructive ideas that don't involve genocide or civil war for a change. Time to hear from the grown ups.
Msbets...you seem awfully upset. All those captial letters.Have you tried a stool softener?
faithistheword wrote:
You mean while barry and his flock burn down the house? You can't blame any more on Bush. Do you think that we'll believe what you say, just because you say it--like you believe barry and nancy and harry? Sorry--we know better!
All parties have some blame because they all subscribe to the same corrupt system. I have no party or ideological affiliation and I have little belief in anything dispensed by either side. The point I have repeatedly made is that the Obama birther issue is a distractive non event and only serves the Great Masters to keep us debating it while they plunder the Treasury and enslave us all in the process.
I will leave this thread now and move on to other more pressing issues. Thank you all for a lively debate. I wish you all well.
Thank you for all the attention folks. My reference to "natural born" was a comment about actual child birth in the state of Hawaii, not the clause in the Constitution you seem to be referring to. The poster seemed to concede that Obama was born in Hawaii. I took that as progress towards
the bigger picture of putting this whole debate into it's proper debate category (semantics). Not one one you has addressed the repeated point of my posts; that this is all so much entertainment while the house burns down (to use another analogy since my Titanic one was so misused).
You remind me of Pavlov's dogs. When the bell rings you salivate. All someone has to do in this thread to manipulate your blood pressure is to APPEAR to be defending Obama. I wonder if we really understand how much our passions can be manipulated like this. I did not post here with any illusions that I would change anybody's mind, just give a voice to an inconvenient truth: Obama will be history in 3 short years and the problems in this country will remain. When will we start work on the R-E-A-L