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...and yet another disgraced Republican
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Jan 20, 2020 10:37:30   #
4430 Loc: Little Egypt ** Southern Illinory
 
Barracuda2020 wrote:
Of course you like guns, it's unamerican not to...right? Yeah I know, guns don't kill people...


Only Bad Guys kill people not guns !

Reply
Jan 20, 2020 10:41:36   #
permafrost Loc: Minnesota
 
son of witless wrote:
" Go take a pill if you can't find a way to get along with other Americans who don't align with your viewpoints. "

But I am getting along with you. I am calmly discussing all of your mistakes with you. I am not upset in the least.

" The fact that you are compelled to not find one person on the left with some attributes, speaks volumes of your skewed and unreasonable opinion. "

Okay if these are your rules, I can play by them. Hmmmmm, one person on the Left who has some attributes ? Well it would have to be a pretty far left person, otherwise you will call foul. Now leave me see. What field of endeavor shall I pick. How about a Cop ? Nay, far too right wing. How about a Truck Driver ? Nope, too blue collar.

Wait, wait, I have it. This person actually belongs to two separate Far Left Groups. That should satisfy your very high standards. The two Liberal Groups he belongs to are Lawyers and College Professors. That is some impressive Leftwing pedigree if you ask me.

I choose Alan Dershowicz. It's hard to get more Liberal than that gentleman. Now what good can I say about him ? Oh yes, he thinks the Trump Impeachment is wrong.

" you may not get embarrassed for US but the rest of the sane population does. "

Who are these sane folks you speak of, the ones who screamed hysterically on Election Night 2016 ?
" Go take a pill if you can't find a way to g... (show quote)




I know Alan is a champion to the right wingers and loved by all of you.. his deeds and exploits are often the high light of discussions on pedophiles and corruption.. so how could you ever thing any real American would respond well to your amusing recommendation?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-just-hired-jeffrey-epsteins-lawyers-alan-dershowitz-and-ken-starr


donald trump is lawyering up for his impeachment trial with a team that looks surprisingly similar to that of billionaire pedophile Jeffrey Epstein.

The president bolstered his legal team Friday with attorneys Alan Dershowitz and Kenneth Starr, who helped Epstein evade prison time in a now infamously lenient plea deal with Palm Beach prosecutors. Epstein originally faced multiple charges of soliciting and trafficking underage girls, but escaped with just 13 months of house arrest in a deal that caused Trump’s Labor Secretary Alex Acosta to resign under pressure last year.

A suit unveiled by Virgin Islands prosecutors this week alleges Epstein continued to traffic and abuse girls as young as 12 on his private islands until 2018, a decade after Starr and Dershowitz helped him walk free. Epstein died by suicide before facing trafficking charges in New York last year.

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Jan 20, 2020 10:45:26   #
4430 Loc: Little Egypt ** Southern Illinory
 
straightUp wrote:
And by the same token, Trump's help wouldn't be needed to convict the Bidens either. Are you getting the point yet?



Being under indictment is not the same thing as being under investigation. People don't come under indictment unless there is clear evidence of a crime. It's a step beyond investigation and a step short of conviction. Hillary was under investigation for 25 years and was never indicted because those 25 years of investigations failed to reveal enough evidence to indict her. That being said, it's my opinion that any vote for a public figure while he/she is under indictment DOES say something about the voter.


Thanks to the deep state they were all afraid to buck Hillary as we all well know who ever has dirt on the Clinton's has a poor survival expectancy

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Jan 20, 2020 11:07:02   #
son of witless
 
permafrost wrote:
I know Alan is a champion to the right wingers and loved by all of you.. his deeds and exploits are often the high light of discussions on pedophiles and corruption.. so how could you ever thing any real American would respond well to your amusing recommendation?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-just-hired-jeffrey-epsteins-lawyers-alan-dershowitz-and-ken-starr


donald trump is lawyering up for his impeachment trial with a team that looks surprisingly similar to that of billionaire pedophile Jeffrey Epstein.

The president bolstered his legal team Friday with attorneys Alan Dershowitz and Kenneth Starr, who helped Epstein evade prison time in a now infamously lenient plea deal with Palm Beach prosecutors. Epstein originally faced multiple charges of soliciting and trafficking underage girls, but escaped with just 13 months of house arrest in a deal that caused Trump’s Labor Secretary Alex Acosta to resign under pressure last year.

A suit unveiled by Virgin Islands prosecutors this week alleges Epstein continued to traffic and abuse girls as young as 12 on his private islands until 2018, a decade after Starr and Dershowitz helped him walk free. Epstein died by suicide before facing trafficking charges in New York last year.
I know Alan is a champion to the right wingers and... (show quote)
#

" so how could you ever thing any real American would respond well to your amusing recommendation? "

If you were following my conversation with Barracuda2020, he challenged me over my blanket condemnation of Liberals. That if I could not say anything nice about even one Liberal, then my views were in doubt or not valid. It was hard, but I simply complied with his request that I say something nice about one of them. I would say that I met his minimum standard, and so henceforth you Liberals must treat my views seriously.

" donald trump is lawyering up for his impeachment trial with a team that looks surprisingly similar to that of billionaire pedophile Jeffrey Epstein. "

I suppose that you are IMPLYING that innocent people need not bother with lawyers. I have listened to lawyers give talks and they absolutely contradict you.

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Jan 20, 2020 11:18:32   #
4430 Loc: Little Egypt ** Southern Illinory
 
permafrost wrote:
I know Alan is a champion to the right wingers and loved by all of you.. his deeds and exploits are often the high light of discussions on pedophiles and corruption.. so how could you ever thing any real American would respond well to your amusing recommendation?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-just-hired-jeffrey-epsteins-lawyers-alan-dershowitz-and-ken-starr


donald trump is lawyering up for his impeachment trial with a team that looks surprisingly similar to that of billionaire pedophile Jeffrey Epstein.

The president bolstered his legal team Friday with attorneys Alan Dershowitz and Kenneth Starr, who helped Epstein evade prison time in a now infamously lenient plea deal with Palm Beach prosecutors. Epstein originally faced multiple charges of soliciting and trafficking underage girls, but escaped with just 13 months of house arrest in a deal that caused Trump’s Labor Secretary Alex Acosta to resign under pressure last year.

A suit unveiled by Virgin Islands prosecutors this week alleges Epstein continued to traffic and abuse girls as young as 12 on his private islands until 2018, a decade after Starr and Dershowitz helped him walk free. Epstein died by suicide before facing trafficking charges in New York last year.
I know Alan is a champion to the right wingers and... (show quote)



As much as I dislike pedophiles and Epstein and all of the rest of their kind by law they were entitled to legal defense and that defense has to defend their client to the best of their ability !

I'm not in any way defending either of these lawyers in these cases you bring up , however since Epstein walked free suggests the prosecutor didn't have sufficient evidence at the time .

Same law the rapist Hillary defended was entitled too !

Sometimes evil people gets a break as bad as it seems and sometimes justice goes amiss !

Now perm I'm pretty sure if you was arrested for a really bad crime and you knew you were guilty you'd want some one like Alan Dershowitz and Kenneth Starr to represent you !

Reply
Jan 20, 2020 12:18:44   #
straightUp Loc: California
 
permafrost wrote:
Darn, it is such a chore, trying to bring truth to the right wingers of the republican party..
Much like jousting with windmills and all that entails.. so tiring and repetitious.. tired of the foolishness..

Now that it has warmed to -3 Degrees, i will soon go out and tend my unicorns and herd my cats..

More interesting then forcing the unwilling to face the truth about their idol of orange.. why do they insist on loyalty to the most disloyal to ever hold the oval office???

But in full faith that you all will hate this, I will post some excerpts from the Atlantic a few weeks ago......

Read and contemplate your naval as you ponder the truth, justice and the American way.. which has long gone from the right wing of the Republican party..

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/10/trump-making-swamp-worse/599344/

The last serious effort to “drain the swamp” in Washington, D.C., came after Watergate, when Congress pushed through sweeping reforms inspired by the misdeeds of Richard Nixon’s administration and the backlash its criminal acts produced.

The new ethics rules and laws forbade some lobbying by former members of Congress and their staffers; forced elected officials and some of their family members to disclose their financial interests; limited the franking privilege; imposed limits on individual contributions to candidates for federal office; imposed reporting requirements on campaign spending; introduced public funding into presidential campaigns; and sought to limit how much candidates could spend on their own campaigns (a restriction the Supreme Court later struck down).

What has Donald Trump done in comparison?

Trump’s interest in possible misdeeds extends no further than the specific Democrats he considers his most direct political adversaries, such as Hillary Clinton. For all his theatrics, he is not actually fighting corruption any more than a WWE wrestler is actually fighting his opponent. Put simply, there is no prospect that he will, in fact, drain the swamp.

For three years, he’s taken no step toward lasting change. And matters are only going to get worse, if you’re a Trump fan who actually wants the swamp to be drained.

Think of today’s partisan incentive structure. A president facing an impeachment inquiry is never a champion of measures that make it easier to ferret out official misconduct and hold the guilty accountable.

He will go further, urging foreign governments to investigate the Bidens; indeed, he already has. Meanwhile, the activities of Ivanka, Eric, and Don Jr., plus his own business dealings, will keep him from effecting any sort of broader legal or normative change that would curb efforts to profit from public office. He’ll attack Hunter Biden while bolstering the laws and norms that made him possible.

So pity the Trump supporters who want to drain the swamp. There is no prospect of their civic happiness. Insofar as their champion thrives politically, Washington, D.C., will grow only more corrupt. But if Trump is proved to have abused his power, the backlash may inspire reforms, as it did after Watergate. You can fight to drain the swamp or to defend Trump, but not both.
Darn, it is such a chore, trying to bring truth to... (show quote)


Thanks for sharing that permafrost.

I certainly think the question regarding the loyalty of Trump's base is worth looking at and the article featured in the Atlantic really brings this question out - not so much underlining Trump's failure to meet campaign promises or the meaningless of his campaign promises in the first place, but more than anything, to highlight the significance of the attempted "normalization" of shitty politics.

Indeed, there was an era where politicians had to hide their corruption because they could never get it past the American people. This is something Republicans today very much depend on as they point to the Democratic past and suggest a wide range of crazy, hidden conspiracies. But what Trump did (and this is perhaps his greatest "accomplishment") is he pushed the envelope on what Americans are actually willing to accept and this is creating a new divide between us, not so much based on the forgivable premise of being misled but on the unforgivable premise of willful choice.

This is why "divided America" carries so much more weight now under Trump than it ever has before. It's one thing to point to a citizen and say "you've been misled" - quite another to point to a citizen and say you made the informed choice to downgrade American ethics.

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Jan 20, 2020 12:27:27   #
4430 Loc: Little Egypt ** Southern Illinory
 
straightUp wrote:

I certainly think it's worth mentioning... not so much to underline Trump's complete and utter failure to meet campaign promises or to expose the meaningless of his campaign promises in the first place, but more than anything, the significance of the attempted "normalization" of shitty politics.


Name One Politician that has fulfilled every campaign promise ?

Funny how blind you all are that see all the promises Trump made has been done but won't admit it !

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Jan 20, 2020 13:13:02   #
straightUp Loc: California
 
4430 wrote:
Name One Politician that has fulfilled every campaign promise ?

OK... none that I know of. Happy?

That being said however, I don't recall any politicians making such astounding promises and then failing to meet them, so Trump DOES stand out in that respect.

Still, if you paid more attention to what I was stating you would know that I mentioned campaign promises as being of lesser significance to the point I was making about normalizing shitty politics.

4430 wrote:

Funny how blind you all are that see all the promises Trump made has been done but won't admit it !

There's already been an abundance of back and forth on this issue and it's not relevant to the point I was making which is this... Trump supporters are willfully supporting a degradation in American ethics to protect their politics.

I'll say it again, so you get it this time...

Trump supporters are willfully supporting a degradation in American ethics to protect their politics.

I encourage you to find a solid argument to challenge this assessment. If that's too hard for you and you would rather spar over Trump's record on his campaign promises because you think he actually kept his promises then I'll start by giving you the same challenge you gave me... Name one.

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Jan 20, 2020 13:17:29   #
4430 Loc: Little Egypt ** Southern Illinory
 
straightUp wrote:

Trump supporters are willfully supporting a degradation in American ethics to protect their politics.



Would be helpful for you to name all the degradation in American ethics to protect their politics.

There seems to be in your ream of thought that only Progressive Democrat are capable of having all the right politics !

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Jan 20, 2020 14:14:08   #
son of witless
 
straightUp wrote:
There's already been an abundance of back and forth on this issue and it's not relevant to the point I was making which is this... Trump supporters are willfully supporting a degradation in American ethics to protect their politics.

I'll say it again, so you get it this time...

Trump supporters are willfully supporting a degradation in American ethics to protect their politics.

I encourage you to find a solid argument to challenge this assessment. If that's too hard for you and you would rather spar over Trump's record on his campaign promises because you think he actually kept his promises then I'll start by giving you the same challenge you gave me... Name one.
There's already been an abundance of back and fort... (show quote)


Do you feel even a slight irritation in your eye ? Mathew 7:3 " and beholdest thou the mote in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye. "

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Jan 20, 2020 14:22:47   #
straightUp Loc: California
 
4430 wrote:
Would be helpful for you to name all the degradation in American ethics to protect their politics.

The list is long but the article that permafrost linked to provides a good start. If you want me to give you an example, I suppose I can start with the frantic opposition to the impeachment trial. Whether or not you agree with the charges against Trump, the Constitution established the impeachment process for a reason and the Democrats apparently think that reason is enough to prosecute Trump. So, the ethical stance on this is to allow full consideration of the evidence and witness testimony and let that process determine if he is guilty or innocent. It should never matter who the defendant is, or which party he belongs to. What matters is upholding the Constitution.

The last thing Pelosi or any of the Democrats wanted to do is impeach Trump. Contrary to the right-wing narrative, most Democrats are confident they will win the election in 2020 and if the right is correct about anything it's that the acquittal that we all know is going to happen in Senate will more likely help Trump in 2020 than hurt him. So why then would they proceed?

The answer is ethics. Given the case against Trump, the Democrats were at risk of losing their own support if they didn't take a stand. So even if Trump is acquitted and even is he wins in 2020, the Democrats will still have at least preserved their ethical standing by impeaching him. On the other hand, the Republicans have done everything they can to frame this impeachment as a scam, going to far as to suggest the Senate dismiss the case or disallow any witnesses. McConnell actually stated publicly, that he will work in full cooperation with Trump, which is really no different than a judge telling a court that he's going to work in full cooperation with the defendant. Do you want to tell me how ethical you think that is?. All of this undermines the seriousness of the only Constitutional provision for dealing with a corrupt president and it's all being done to preserve the right-wing politics that Trump champions.

4430 wrote:

There seems to be in your ream of thought that only Progressive Democrat are capable of having all the right politics !


I'm gonna say that's all on you. I never actually said that, nor do I think it, nor do I think it's even possible for one faction for have everything right. In fact, I take the conservative side on a number of issues.

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Jan 20, 2020 14:31:44   #
son of witless
 
straightUp wrote:
I'm gonna say that's all on you. I never actually said that, nor do I think it, nor do I think it's even possible for one faction for have everything right. In fact, I take the conservative side on a number of issues.


It ain't ethics that made Democrats Impeach, although I agree the they had to feed the base after riling them up for 3 years. If you guys succeed in either removing the President or taking the Senate because you defeated Republican Senators who voted to acquit, you will have set a new and bad precedent.

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Jan 20, 2020 14:52:34   #
4430 Loc: Little Egypt ** Southern Illinory
 
straightUp wrote:
I'm gonna say that's all on you. I never actually said that, nor do I think it, nor do I think it's even possible for one faction for have everything right. In fact, I take the conservative side on a number of issues.


Well that's good to know !

The beginning of the impeachment process was a farce if you watched it !

Don't kid yourself Nancy and the Democrats were talking impeachment before Trump was sworn in and have done nothing but make up stuff for the last 3 years !

One only has to look at how many times they changed their minds on what to impeach him for !
When one point fell thru they change again the another one fell thru !

It's all because they lost the 2016 election and are not going to accept it and when Trump is reelected they will still run their impeachment another 4 years .

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Jan 20, 2020 14:58:15   #
4430 Loc: Little Egypt ** Southern Illinory
 
son of witless wrote:
It ain't ethics that made Democrats Impeach, although I agree the they had to feed the base after riling them up for 3 years. If you guys succeed in either removing the President or taking the Senate because you defeated Republican Senators who voted to acquit, you will have set a new and bad precedent.


Yep any President can in the future be removed for office thru an illegal coup !

In the event they could get control of all three branches that would spell the end of the Republic and Constitution !

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Jan 20, 2020 14:59:10   #
Seth
 
straightUp wrote:
I have a Mossberg 12 gauge too... I traded my much heavier Remington for it. Very happy with the trade.


I love my Mossberg.

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