Seth

Then that's good, emarine!

You have finally realized that President Trump is "da man," and you are attempting to emulate him. Good for you, embrace reality for a change...

emarine

da man lies like a rug... now that's reality … But I do enjoy reminding you of this simple fact...

straightUp Loc: California

I can't help you with your delusion eagle. Sorry.

Cuda2020

No one is forcing you to like anyone, which is the rights problem, as in gays, immigrants, transgenders, that is not our agenda, but you will NOT be allowed to persecute them, in any way. Which is what you would LIKE to do. You continue to lie and refuse to own up to your prejudices.

crazylibertarian Loc: Florida by way of New York & Rhode Island

Somebody planted it so people like him would run with it.

Seth

He fibs about small stuff, maybe exaggerates a bit, but not when it comes to things that directly affect our lives, such as "you can keep your health insurance."

While he was talking about a border crisis, for example, your lot were calling him a liar, pushing Obama era photos of children in cages and claiming they were Trump's doing... Then America learned there is a crisis on the border and you folks began comparing detainment areas with concentration camps.

The only lying of consequence comes from the left.

When Hillary lied about Benghazi, we didn't hear a single voice from your side of the fence question it. When Hillary claimed she had been "under fire" at that airport when video showed different, where was a single voice from the left commenting on her lie? No, you lefties voted for the treasonous, blatantly corrupt globalist sociopath for POTUS.

Meanwhile there's Trump, a man who is not a politician, sacrificing 8 years in which he could be enjoying his billionaire's lifestyle to serve in a position that costs him 18 hour days of being slandered, "investigated," attacked and called every name in the book, even having his family slandered, because he wants to fix a few problems that president after president has kicked down the road or exacerbated for decades.

From the viewpoints of reality and American patriotism, you folks on the left don't even have a leg to stand on.

straightUp Loc: California

I don't recall any prior mention of Obama's exchange with Medvedev in our discussion. May be you're confusing me with someone else.

As far as I know, The Obama–Medvedev Commission was a highly-visible discourse between two nations designed to improve their relations which had been deteriorating for some time. The communication involved entire teams of dignitaries and the commission even had a mission statement for crying out loud stating the very purpose of the commission as "identifying areas of cooperation and pursuing joint projects and actions that strengthen strategic stability, international security, economic well-being, and the development of ties between the Russian and American people."

So this would seem to be a poor example of secrecy Seth. Yes, the meaning *is* obvious... It was intentionally obvious... as in NOT secretive.

So I really don't understand your point. If you have some conspiracy theory about this, why don't you explain it to me BEFORE you start accusing me of intentionally ignoring something I am not aware of?


Then do something else Seth. There's no point in getting yourself all wound up because you can't counter my logic or force me to agree with your BS.


I really think that depends on the subject matter. I've had plenty of debates with leftists and succeeded in getting them to reconsider their view points and as a leftist myself I have also reconsidered my own view points on numerous occasions as a consequence of debate.

I think there's a swath of people on the right (and it's on the left as well) that cling tenaciously to their assertions despite all arguments, logic and evidence and for THOSE people, yes - the debates tend to be predictable.

straightUp Loc: California

That's a very good point emarine. Both the polls and the voting booths suggest the majority of Americans don't trust Trump. His base is obviously struggling to find any grounds on which to change that. it seems they try to make up for that with these crazy conspiracy theories that really don't help anything other than more agitation on the right and more laughter on the left.

Meanwhile, Trump keeps pulling these bonehead moves that makes things worse. Now, there are reports that he has asked the Ukrainian president-elect to investigate Joe Biden and his son. it just seems like a really stupid thing to do after all the fuss about Russian interference in the 2016 elections.

I'm not going to argue that any of that is 100% true because it's still being investigated, but Trump's, bizarre lawyer, Giuliani really isn't helping the effort to counter the accusation. In any case, it get's back to your point. All this commotion over Trump's antics, proven or not is resulting in a very real loss of trust, by an ever increasing majority of Americans.

Trump's base can cling to the idea that he's a victim of the media, but most Americans don't want a victim for a president either. Personally, I'm getting tired of the president crying everyday that the media is mean to him. People in the media have been trying to discredit presidents for decades - the efforts to discredit Obama were unprecedented. Yet Trump is the only one that seems to be suffering from an inability to rise above it.

So all, conspiracies, fake news and everything else aside... Trump is proving just through his reactions to be a weak, self-pitying, excuse of a man. I understand that for the white nationalists, he seems to represent the first chance they've had to legitimize racist exclusion but my advice to them is to look for a stronger man to champion their disgusting cause, maybe someone who is at least as smart as the previous presidents who didn't fall victim so easily.

As for those who are simply obsessed with hating liberals and seek vengeance in the presidency, I would suggest they get over it. There are real problems to solve and if they don't like the approach liberals are taking then they can do much better by coming up with constructive alternatives instead of insults and sabotage.

Seth

As an American who comes from early 20th Century immigrants from Ukraine and Poland, I grew up in a patriotic Democrat family. I left the Democratic Party after a term of Jimmy Carter, for whom I had voted, and haven't looked back.

Apparently the Democrats haven't either, because virtually everything they now embrace goes counter to the America envisioned by the founders and, in fact, seems geared toward subduing our culture, crushing our economy and deleting the Bill of Rights.

I truly don't know what any leftists who were raised in America when I grew up -- I am now in my mid sixties -- could possibly see in the concept of "fundamentally transforming America," but it's all wrong. Every single "change" you folks want to engender in this country has already been proven, several times, in fact, as ingredients in a recipe for misery.

Yet you keep embracing the same concepts, and believe that you can convince freedom loving Americans that a gargantuan, omnipotent federal government that can overrule things like free speech and religious freedom (except for Muslims, who have carte blanche to do as they please) while using fake science to undermine our economy, export American jobs and micromanage every aspect of our lives.

The left forces acceptance on us of things we don't want any part of, taxes and spends as though the hard working taxpayer's money belongs to the government and is there to be thrown around on social issues, indoctrinates school children and college students, propagandizes the media, encourages violence against conservatives... And attacks capitalism, which is half the description of our capitalist republic.

My whole point about the Obama-Medvedev exchange is that had Trump been there instead of Obama, you folks would have been shouting about it from the rooftops, talking heads at CNN and MSNBC would be saying the exchange was ironclad proof of "collusion" and you'd be right here posting the same thing.

There's this little item called the "double standard", you see....

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

Trump: "Great crowd, probably 50,000!"

Trump haters: "We fact checked and Trump is lying again. There were only 49,500 in attendance! Lying Trump!!"

Seth

Exactly.

eagleye13 Loc: Fl

"I can't help you with your delusion eagle. Sorry."
Delusion is in the eye of the beholder.

How's the surf in your parts these days?
I am not sure if Floridians know what good surf is. It is rare.
We are getting 2 ft to 3 ft (at most) blown out windy swells here in Daytona.
My sympathy!
But at least they are having fun.

straightUp Loc: California

Here's something that might serve to put your accusation of my double-standard to rest. I don't support the original vision of our founders. I think they were all assholes. As someone who has until recently identified as a Jeffersonian this is an example of how I have changed as a result of debate. Something you have accused me of not being capable of.

I've come to realize that in 1772 the British government started to consider the eradication of slavery throughout it's empire and founders like Jefferson and Washington (both slave owners) didn't much like the idea. There is much evidence to suggest that preserving the slave trade was at the heart of our declaration for independence where things like the Stamp Act were mere excuses. Because of this, during the revolution itself, almost every black man involved in combat was on the British side.

Most of the Indians were also aligned with the British but for a different reason... they didn't trust the colonists to honor the land treaties, which in the end they did not.

Indeed, the founders created a system that served them as white male landowners and disadvantaged everyone else. Just within Jefferson's lifetime, America broke numerous treaties they signed with the Indian while under British rule and invaded their neighbors in 1812 in efforts to expand their territory by force. So make no mistake, I am not a believer in our foundation. I think there were some nice ideas in our founding documents that reflected intellectual thinking of the time, such as all men being created equal, but they were obviously using these lofty concepts to decorate their appeals not to actually live by. How else would you explain a man writing a letter to a king that all men are created equal while his slaves were chained up a few yards away?

Oh, that's right - slaves were only 3/5ths human. Yeah, f**k the foundation. That doesn't mean I hate America today... quite the contrary. America changed for the better. Through the courage of countless people that stood up to exploitation and selective oppression and ironically, those lofty ideas that the founders rhetorically spoke of, not thinking people would actually use them to validate social movements, America went through a slow process of becoming a more fair and just nation. That process is still happening despite the bitter complaints of those who pine for the old ways of bigotry and oppression.

So... getting back to your accusations... Yes, I strongly support the efforts to counter the original vision of our asshole founders. As for subduing our culture, that's far to vague an accusation to respond to because America is in fact a mix of many cultures. But if YOUR culture is based on bigotry and unfair advantages then yes, I am opposed. As for the economy - I think it's pretty clear. For the past 40 years we have seen Republicans trash the economy and Democrats fix the economy. I don't know how you can possibly see it any other way. I mean the economy is so easy to measure empirically and all it takes is simple math to understand how the Republican habit of cutting taxes and spending more money results in larger deficits and eventually higher debts and the historical trends illustrate that as plain as day.

Deleting the Bill of Rights, which many founders fought bitterly NOT to ratify, is not under attack by the left by any stretch of the imagination. I see the right-wing arguments all the time, especially around the 1st and 2nd Amendments but they all depend on this overstated slippery-slope notion, which means most of the argument is fictional.

To avoid an already long answer getting even longer, I will answer the rest of your unfounded charges in a subsequent post.

straightUp Loc: California

As long as your having fun that's the big thing. I haven't been out for a while. I'm currently in PA working on a project. (The people here know less about what good surf is than they do in Florida. LOL)

Seth

The western world, including America, has socially evolved over the last 2 1/2 centuries, and what were norms then are anathema today.

The founders' vision has proven correct where our country is concerned, those of us alive today had nothing to do with the proclivities of the distant past nor do we bear any responsibility for them.

All you're doing is running the usual leftist guilt trip, like the rest of the traitors who want to erase our history through revisionism and the toppling of our national monuments.

In the kind of society you and the rest of your Bolshevik comrades promote, you wouldn't even have the right to speak out as you do without "disappearing" into a "reindoctrination" facility, a mental hospital or a gulag.

See, your ilk likes to pretend, for political agenda purposes, that you really care about human beings and their "plights," but in reality your only concern is your political agendas -- to the left, people are little more than pieces of meat.

Your self righteousness is so obviously false.

If you leftists don't like America as it is, as the majority of us do, instead of trying to destroy this great nation perhaps you should simply move someplace where things are more to your liking, like Cuba or Venezuela.