Loki wrote:
"I didn't realize this was a pride thing. I mentioned the Civil War because of the fate of racial discrimination. I forgot you're from Georgia, so naturally that's a chip on your shoulder. Get over it. No one has to carry the guilt of what their ancestors did. Just remember their mistakes."
First, I am not "from" Georgia. I have lived here several years.
Which mistakes did my ancestors make? Your ancestors lost. Twice. Then your ancestors had to depend on my ancestors to save their bacon in WWI and WWII.
i "I didn't realize this was a pride thing. ... (
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So, you ARE taking this personally as a pride thing (and missing the point I made earlier about the Civil War). But since your spouting such nonsense, I may as well add some facts. The War of 1812 goes down in most history books as a stalemate. Wikipedia calls it a "military stalemate". This leaves the effective result up to interpretation. In American schools the war is glossed over where it's acknowledged there WAS a war but not much more than that.
The press gangs you mentioned did happen... It was an underhanded game that navies played in those days. The U.S. did the same thing... In fact, that's where the the term "Shanghaiing" comes from as sailors in San Fransisco would often get drunk and pass out then wake up later on board a ship they never signed up for and bound for Shanghai. While this was the only excuse American historians can find that sounds somewhat justified, a far more compelling "cause" of war was the American aggression on Canadian territory, which Americans were deeply divided on. The Federalists opposed the expansion into Canada and they also opposed the war. I accidentally mentioned Jefferson earlier but I meant to say Madison (the other famous anti-Federalist) many Americans at the time called it "Madison's War" - a common response to unpopular wars such as "Bush's War". I'm sure the unpopularity of the war had something to do with the defeats Americans suffered at the hands of the British, who at the time was also fighting Napoleon's French empire. In a sense, the British thrashed the Americans with one hand tied behind their back.
Americans started with 7,000 troops... and by the end 3,700 American troops were killed in action.
The British started with 5,000 troops... and by the end 1,960 British troops were killed in action. (Most the British troops were in Europe fighting the French)
Also, the British burned down the White House in a capture the flag moment that as I said, forced the U.S. to agree to stop invading Canadian territory. So your claim that the British lost is hilarious. BTW, the British were fighting the French during the American Revolution too and it's seriously doubtful the Americans would have won without help from the French. Fact is... the only time the U.S. ever started fights with the British was when the British were already fighting the French.
The U.S. presence in WW1 was slight. Even the Italians had more of an impact. I know the Brits tend to laugh at the egotistical attitude of Americans regarding these wars but I think they find our attitude about WW2 a little less amusing, probably because it's a more recent memory. The British and Germans are the only nations that fought from start to finish without switching sides. After the French were defeated things got pretty intense for the British. They begged the U.S. to help but the U.S. had no interest fighting the Nazis, in fact many of them were doing business with the Third Reich, including IBM, Standard Oil and GM and FDR was getting death threats for suggesting we help the British fight them. My mother lost her family to a German bombing raid during that time. It wasn't until the Japanese attacked Perl Harbor that the U.S. joined but by that time, Germany was already on the run having already been served their first defeats at the hands of the British and the Russians. America won the war against the Japanese in the Pacific, but it was the British and Russians that won the war against Germany in Europe. Considering what Germany was developing, it's a pretty safe bet that the British actually saved America.
I'm sure you will disagree with all of this and that's fine, but I'm not going to spend my day arguing about military history with someone who can't climb off his patriotic high horse. We will just have to agree to disagree.
Loki wrote:
Oh, that racial discrimination thing..... Four Northern states allowed slavery and were unaffected by the Emancipation Proclamation. At least four Northern states or territories had laws prohibiting free blacks from settling there. They wanted blacks free, just free somewhere else.
In New York, blacks were lynched. Ulysses S Grant was married to a slave owner who did not free her slaves until forced to do so by the ratification of the 13th Amendment. William Sherman, whose infamous march to the sea did so much damage to noncombatants in Georgia, was ambivalent about slavery. His troops committed all sorts of atrocities against blacks in their march to the sea. Rapes were especially common, pillaging was encouraged and murder was not unheard of.
On the two occasions Lee's army was in the North, Confederate soldiers who committed these acts were flogged, shot or hung, depending on the severity.
Admittedly, I digressed on the last paragraph.
br Oh, that racial discrimination thing..... Four... (
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There are always exceptions to the prevailing patterns Loki. My intention wasn't to get into a long elaborate pissing contest about "ancestors" and historic details. I was was just razzing your side about what ultimately happened to a movement that supported racial inequality when they took it to the extreme.
Loki wrote:
You would have us believe that the British won an unbroken string of victories in the War of 1812. There were quite a few American victories, and a surprising number of American defeats were when General William Hull commanded the US forces. He was an incompetent.
Whatever make you feel better about losing, Loki ;)
Loki wrote:
I realize you are from the UK and a Californian from a very young age, so I can understand why you have so many facts about US history wrong.
Okie-dokie.