Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Again, you present interesting insights and I will reply only to those which are not personal. You partially quote from the Mishnah Sotah 9:15. This is interesting for a number of reasons, but mostly because you use it to infer that it is more than what it is… the Mishnah is not a world of uniformity; far from it. Most passages in the Mishnah contain a dispute between different rabbinic sages. Further, the Mishnah is not a code of Jewish law; it is a study book of law. Mishnah 9 can confuse some folks. It opens with what or when or even if a heifer’s neck should be broken. Then it goes into mishnayoth discussion of various historical events and what ceased at those times. The first section is an opinion of what ceased when the great teachers of Torah of the mishnaic period died.

The second and third sections contain laments at the great deterioration that Israel experienced when the Temple was destroyed. The last part of the third section and the final section contain messages of hope for better times.

Now I feel compelled to complete your cherry-picked quote: “When Rabbi Meir died, the composers of fables ceased. When Ben Azzai died, the diligent students [of Torah] ceased. When Ben Zoma died, the expounders ceased. When Rabbi Yehoshua died, goodness ceased from the world. When Rabban Shimon ben Gamaliel died, locusts came and troubles multiplied. When Rabbi Elazar ben Azaryah died, the sages ceased to be wealthy. When Rabbi Akiba died, the glory of the Torah ceased. When Rabbi Hanina ben Dosa died, men of wondrous deeds ceased. When Rabbi Yose Katnuta died, the pious men (hasidim) ceased—and why was his name called Katnuta? Because he was the youngest of the pious men. When Rabban Yohanan ben Zakkai died, the splendor of wisdom ceased. When Rabban Gamaliel the elder died, the glory of the torah ceased, and purity and separateness perished. When Rabbi Ishmael ben Fabi died, the splendor of the priesthood died. When Rabbi died, humility and fear of sin ceased. Rabbi Phineas ben Yair says: when Temple was destroyed, scholars and freemen were ashamed and covered their head, men of wondrous deeds were disregarded, and violent men and big talkers grew powerful. And nobody expounds, nobody seeks, and nobody asks. Upon whom shall we depend? Upon our father who is in heaven. Rabbi Eliezer the Great says: from the day the Temple was destroyed, the sages began to be like scribes, scribes like synagogue-attendants, synagogue-attendants like common people, and the common people became more and more debased. And nobody seeks. Upon whom shall we depend? Upon our father who is in heaven. In the footsteps of the Messiah insolence will increase and the cost of living will go up greatly; the vine will yield its fruit, but wine will be expensive; the government will turn to heresy, and there will be no one to rebuke; the meeting-place [of scholars] will be used for licentiousness; the Galilee will be destroyed, the Gablan will be desolated, and the dwellers on the frontier will go about [begging] from place to place without anyone to take pity on them; the wisdom of the learned will rot, those who fear sin will be despised, and the truth will be lacking; youths will put old men to shame, the old will stand up in the presence of the young, “For son spurns father, daughter rises up against mother, daughter-in-law against mother-in-law—a man’s own household are his enemies” (Micah 7:6). The face of the generation will be like the face of a dog, a son will not feel ashamed before his father. Upon whom shall we depend? Upon our father who is in heaven. R. Pinchas ben Yair says: Quickness leads to cleanliness, cleanliness leads to purity, purity leads to separation, separation leads to sanctity, sanctity leads to humility, humility leads to fear of sin, fear of sin leads to piety, piety leads to the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit leads to the resuscitation of the dead, and the resuscitation of the dead leads to the coming of Elijah, may he be remembered for good, Amen.”

An interesting side bar to Gamliel…. He as a Pharisee was probably consulted when the charges were brought against Jesus. Going further back in time, according to Mishna, Pesahim 88, he was the advisor of King Harold and the slaughter of the Innocent. Just some interesting facts about the man who Saul proudly says he studied at his feet. It is also possible, due to his position, that Saul/Paul was also consulted in Jesus' execution.

The rest of your defense of Saul lies in the writings of Luke, not one of the disciples of Jesus and indeed most biblical scholars believe him to be a Greek and therefore a gentile. This is arguable due to the account of Saul's arrest; being of bringing gentiles into the Temple. Those who accused him named only Trophimus and did not mention Luke. So, on that point I would say that there is no overwhelming evidence that Luke was not Jewish. However, it is in my opinion a weak argument to bring a best friend as your only source to defend Saul.

You propose that G*d himself was the author of every book of the Bible. And again, this is only spoken of by Saul; specifically, in 2 Timothy 3:16. The Bible as a whole makes no claim that G*d wrote each and every word contained in the Bible. However, I am not implying that the Bible is not divine. And this is a slippery slope argument. If one says that one word is not divine then how can we defend the entire bible? I suggest it is less important who put pen and mallet to stone or animal hide than who reads the words. The words of the Bible were mostly penned by writers who lived in close relationship to G*d, but nowhere do we read that they were immaculately conceived, or that they were transfigured as they wrote. They were not perfect or omniscient people. Many of them made judgments in their lives for which they would be arrested today, and maybe even given the death penalty. They included adulterers as well as murderers. Despite their humanness, however, the writings they left us are the most valuable and precious tangible gift from G*d to us.

So many Christians have this book in their homes, however most have not read it…. They simply cherry pick the verses that prove their points. And they faithfully tuck it under their arms every Sunday (which is a day named for after the planets of Hellenistic astrology) as they head off to church to listen to their appointed teacher, preacher, minister….. who will cherry pick verses to add emphasis to his or her understanding. Many Christians, knowingly or unknowingly, worship the Bible. It has unknowingly become their idol, and the idea that the Bible might have a tiny error in it is as blasphemous to them as saying that G*d makes mistakes.

G*d does not make mistakes. G*d is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. G*d is not confined to or limited by our finite understanding of who G*d is, and He is not confined to any writings, no matter how great and how inspired. G*d is not limited to written or spoken human language. Humans, on the other hand, even when given a spiritual truth or revelation, can only process it through our own finite mental and spiritual understanding.

The Bible is not one book but a compilation of 66 different inspired writings, written in several different genres by many different authors over a span of many centuries. Some writings are personal letters, like Saul’s, others are poetry, or allegory, or law, or history, or prophecy . . ., each of which should, by nature of the genre, be read a little differently. The Biblical writers, just as writers today, wrote to and within the confines of the cultures of which they were a part.

We all read through the eyes and ears of our own education and experience. Most of us developed our own interpretations from those of our spiritual leaders past and present (pastors, teachers, parents, spouse . . .), although we may be totally unaware of their influence. All of us interpret, but not always responsibly. By explanation, we rarely ask what did the words mean in their original language? (If you have ever mastered a second language, you know that translation is definitely not an exact science.) How would the original readers have understood it? One of the most widespread errors in interpretation is thinking the Bible was written primarily as a rule book for our 21st century American lives.

Again, G*d does not make mistakes. G*d is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. But, there are mistakes in the bible. I will give you only one example for consideration, so get out your bible…. I am sure it is quite near your armchair, and turn to 2 Samuel 24…. And now read 1 Chronicles 21. David sends Joab and the commanders of the army to take a census of Israel and Judah. Two discrepancies between the two stories: 1) One version (2 Sam.) says The Lord incited David to take the census. The other (1 Chron.) says Satan incited him. 2) 2 Sam. numbers the men of Israel as 800, 000 and the men of Judah as 500, 000. 1 Chron. numbers the men of Israel as 1, 100, 000 and the men of Judah as 470, 000. There is also Proverbs 40….. it is a direct translation from an Egyptian text written many years before Solomon.

I leave you with one book, John…. Read chapter 5 carefully, for in it is truth…. Be mindful of verses start at 39 onward. Perhaps you may see this as a warning…. Or perhaps not. In the end, you must decide who you will follow…. And who you will worship.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Thank you for commenting on my comments, Ginny,

If you could break up those enormous paragraphs, so that there is more "white space," it would be much more pleasant when visually scanning the material.

The Apostle Paul requires no defense, - nor is he on trial.

Jesus commanded him:

"Then the Lord said to me, 'Go; I will send you far away to the Gentiles.'"
The crowd listened to Paul until he made this statement. Then they lifted up their voices and shouted, “Rid the earth of him! He is not fit to live!”…(Acts 22:21-22)

When Paul had completed his assignment, shortly before his death, he reported:

"For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand.
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
From now on the crown of righteousness is laid up for me, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day - and not only to me, but to all who crave His appearing." (2nd Timothy 4:6-8)

The only phrase, from the Mishnah Sotah 9, I required was that written regarding Gamail'el I, a.k.a., Gamail'el ha-Zaken, the first Rabbi given the title of Rabben, meaning Master (though Jesus' disciples routinely called Him Master).

That is not cherry picking (your term). That is precise selection on my part.

As to the Mishnah commentary, I was once told by a Reconstructionist Rabbi, while doing the payroll at B'nai B'rith Hillel Foundation, that the Talmud ( translated into English comprises some 400 average size volumes) consisted of a series of giant brainstorming sessions, where every participant had a different opinion, and that all were recorded for posterity. She said that one could eventually find an opinion that validated their own on just about any subject...

This was before Pesach, in response to a frantic student's request for a Rabbinical opinion that would allow her to consider her favorite peanut butter "kosher for passover;" thus she could continue eating it that week.

(I have personally always considered the best part of the Pesach seder the charoset.)

By "mishnaic period," I assume you mean the completion dates: the Rabbinic sages whose views are recorded in the Mishnah, from approximately 10-220 CE, - the period of the Tannaim lasted about 210 years.

I''m very interested in the history of the ancient Scriptures, which, in their original manuscripts alone were perfect, and are unfortunately no longer extant.

I'm not particularly interested in what the Rabbis said something meant for other than historical value, as their ideas were outside the inspired - God breathed Scriptures, and accordingly, are just the opinions of men (as are all Bible Commentaries).

I have the luxury of knowing my Salvation is assured, and I need not turn myself inside out in an effort to earn it through good works.

Any good deeds a Christian achieves are not to be boasted about to be seen by men, for God is always observing the heart's motives. When he observes me, after laughing hysterically, he sees that his Son's shed blood has obliterated my misdeeds, and he knows any accomplishments were performed through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and the strength that He provides.

My physical Bibles are in every room in the house, many versions for comparison, ranging from those copywrited in the last year or two to a few that are 150 to 200 years old. The 5 different Bible programs residing on my hard drive, however, are the ones which I most often consult.

The Bible "mistakes" you list are NOT mistakes, Ginny. The information is right there:

1. The figures in 1 Chronicles are 1,100,000 available fighting men (whether battle seasoned or not) in Israel and 470,000 in Judah, but the chronicler wrote that the Levites and Benjamites (who would have come last) were not included, as Joab did not complete the numbering (1 Chronicles 21:5-6).

The reconciliation of the data is that 1,100,000 describes the grand total for Israel including the standing army, which consisted of 12 units of 24,000 men each (288,000, 1 Chronicles 27:1-15) plus 12,000 especially attached to Jerusalem and the chariot cities (2 Chronicles 1:14).

These 300,000 reserves of military age who had seen no combat are subtracted from 1,100,000 yielding the 800,000 figure in 2 Samuel 24:9, who are described as battle hardened "mighty men." Also the chronicler did not include the 30,000-man standing army of Judah (6:1) whereas they were included in chapter 24. This raises the 470,000 total of Chronicles to the 500,000 of Samuel.

2. Where in the world did you obtain a Bible with 40 Proverbs?

I have the Tanakh published by the Jewish Publication Society, the edition used in the local synagogue. It contains only thirty one (31) Proverbs, as does the Christian New King James, the NAS, the ESV, the NIV, the Enhanced Bible, the King James, the Amplified, etc.

3. By "King Harold," I assume you mean King Herod???

Since you mentioned it Jesus was tried through an illegal, late night semi-secret trial, and many members of the Sanhedrin were not informed of the proceeding. I've never seen Gamail'el mentioned with the proceedings, only Caiaaphas.

Even before Jesus' trial began, the law was broken because His arrest was illegal. The Jewish law prohibited a legal proceeding in capital offenses to take place at night, and Jesus was arrested at night, nor could He be tried by only one judge, illegal under Jewish law, yet He was.

God's glorious purpose was served, so it's all good.

I have one question, Why does the Shabbat morning Torah portion always omit the 53rd chapter of Isaiah, and I do mean always?

My daughter, son-in-law and grandchildren are visiting today from the East Coast, so I must now fortify myself with strong expresso.

There is no idolatry in my house. I'm commonly called an iconoclast, but thanks for your concern.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

My paragraph construction is within common English standards. I am sorry that you may be more used to shorter and more simplified forms, I will try to follow your example of writing style when preparing responses. I had hopes that you would read my inputs rather than just scanning them, but I suppose that would be asking for respect for my time and effort put into my replies. BTW, did I invite you to call me Ginny?

If in your opinion, Saul requires no defense.... then why do you presist in trying to defend him using only his own words or that of his "traveling" companion?

As for your quote... I simply provided you with the complete quote and then addressed Gamail'el, who probably was instrumental in the crucifixion of Jesus and from all accounts, Saul may have been consulted. At any case, Saul, as Gamail'el student (according to Saul) may have taken some of his "lessons" and incorporated them into his teachings. Much of Gamail'el's "rulings" are preserved and among them is "The Law," said he, "was not revealed to angels but to human beings." Some misguided pietists would not partake of wine or meat because, now that the Temple had fallen they could not be offered at its altar. "Why not," said he, "abstain also from bread and water since they too were used in the sacrificial service?" You may recognize this from 1 Corinthians 8. He also advised the "Jew" to bridge the chasm between them and the Romans, in fact he suggested "submission to the inevitable." There is much written about Gamail'el, mostly written by gentiles. In Hebrew history, he holds his position with mixed emotions.

As for your Re-constructionist Rabbi (friend), I intend no harm, but she/he does not reflect the views or opinions of the majority of Jews. They, (Re-constructionist) are considered in the same category as Jews for Jesus and other misguided individuals. In fact, recently several Rabbi have resigned from their movement over their new policy of encouraging or "allowing" rabbis to marry outside the Jewish faith. So, with this in mind, I suggest you may want to consider the opinions of an Orthodox Jew on matters concerning Laws and Writings.

Your taste for charoset is understandable, it is always a favorite of children at our table. However, the reason for this dish is important to keep in mind as it is consumed. It actually has a biblical tie, that of Exodus 1:13-14. It represents the bricks made while the Hebrews were enslaved in Egypt. The first mention of it was in the Mishnah (Pesachim 114a), the consideration of whether it is a mitzvah--requirement. The recipe for it varies from a paste to chopped fruit and nuts. As for your friend and peanut butter, it is forbidden during passover if the peanut could have been stored with chometz... which include: wheat, spelt, barley, oats, and rye. Also, if she were Jewish she would also read the label, if it has soy, then it would not be Kosher. Peanut butter, along with some other foods have to be certified as Kosher, most peanut butters in the supermarket are not even close to Kosher.

Regarding your question on the reading of the Torah.

Let me try to explain. In synagogues there are various codified readings from the Tanakh. The primary reading is from the Torah, the Books of Moses. The reading (called a Parshat) is done each week so that the entire Torah is read sequentially during each year. A secondary reading is from selected other portions of the Tanakh that relate to the Parshat. These readings are scattered among the various other books of the Prophets (Nevi’im) or Writings (Ketuvim) and are only a small portion of them. This secondary reading is called the Haftarah, which would include any reading from the book of Isaiah. The Haftarah practice was established long prior to the Common Era (hundreds of years before Jesus, modern day Christianity, or Paulism).

The reasons a particular portion of scripture was select as a Haftarah reading was because it was related to the Torah reading portion. There is no sequential reading of the entire Prophets and Writings (This is not to imply that they are not studied, for they are in "educational" environments). Further, most of the Prophets and Writings are not read as part of the Haftarah selections. There is some variation among various sects of Judaism over which readings as used as the Haftarah. (In point of fact one sect of Judaism, the Karaites, uses Isaiah 53 among its Haftarah readings). The fact that Isaiah 53 was not included in the Haftarah has no particular significance, any more than not selecting the majority of the rest of the Prophets or Writings.

The purpose of the Haftarah is not reading of the entire Prophets and Writings. Isaiah 53 certainly was not “skipped” due to being related to a future messiah. Which only makes sense, the Haftarah were selected before Jesus’ time. Jews could not have known before Jesus came that Christians would, after the fact, wonder why it was not selected among the Haftarah. (Jews are clever, but not that clever. ).

The Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 53 was not, and is still not, interpreted as a messianic prophecy. The Christian canard that Jews dropped Isaiah 53 from its scripture readings is baseless. It is a shibboleth of apologetic hole cloth, a phantom without substance.


Lastly, I intended to delete to 40 from my comments... It was part of a quote that I deleted and did not properly proofread my comment prior to posting. I had gone into a long side bar on The Instruction of Amenemope. Due to your intolerance to human error, I will ensure I pay closer attention to my editing processes.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Although I signed onto OPP hours ago, after a day's worth of interruptions, I am, at last, without hindrance.

Having, finally, a moment to consider this, I am returning to the basics to further expound on your inquiry, although it appears of ill-will:

In your subsequent post, you asked if you'd granted me permission to call you "Ginny?"

First, I called you Ginny, as did several others on this thread, because you repeatedly signed your comments Ginny

???

If it is verboten to respond in like kind, it would be advisable to so inform in advance with a disclaimer, i.e., "just because I identify myself as "Ginny," in my specific message to you, do not deign to assume that this is how I am to be addressed"(?)

Seems a little petty, does it not?

Magnanimously, laying that aside, let me note that after requiring a detailed explanation of each of the following single verses (with one exception), in this post, you then waxed eloquent in a subsequent post on the inadvisability of my "cherry picking" single verses rather than examining the entire chapter????

...so, we are left with the double standard/premise that "cherry picking" single verses on your part: Good!

while "cherry picking" on my part: All Bad!

Which is it?

Now to your still awaited "cherry picked" verses from above which is the message of Elohim (the plural Godhead), as received by Paul from the Holy Spirit, and which can truly not be understood in their entirety by a nonbeliever, nor one who places him/herself under the law, because they have not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God, for even the prophets in the Tanakh had the Holy Spirit descend and only rest upon them, but were never indwelt:

Galatians 1:15-16
Gal 1:15 But when the one who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace was pleased
Gal 1:16 to reveal his Son in me so that I could preach him among the Gentiles, I did not go to ask advice from any human being,

Paul was chosen by God for a special mission before his birth (as was Jeremiah before him). He would be sent to the Heathen Gentile nations to preach Christ, and his entire life's experience would prepare him for that service.

Through God's infinite grace, he received his visitation from the risen Christ, and believing in Him, was obedient to his calling. Guided by the indwelling Holy Spirit, and having received his instructions from God, he had no need to confer with any man for permission or information.

Galatians 4:14
Gal 4:14 and though my physical condition put you to the test, you did not despise or reject me. Instead, you welcomed me as though I were an angel of God, as though I were Christ Jesus himself!

On Paul's 1st missionary visit to the Galatians, he was suffering from an unspecified illness, however. he lauds his Christian hosts, for he was graciously and hospitably received, as a messenger sent by God, and treated as royally as Jesus himself would have been received.

This is the only incident where Paul uses the term angel, which means "messenger," to refer to anyone other than a supernatural being.

Galatians 2:20
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So the life I now live in the body, I live because of the faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

This is the spiritual condition of every true believer in Jesus Christ, for as they die to themself, they rise to new life through the risen Christ. Water baptism serves as a physical sign of this internal reality.

Galatians 6:17
Gal 6:17 From now on let no one cause me trouble, for I bear the marks of Jesus on my body.

Paul carries the physical scars of his persecution by the Jewish Pharisees and zealots, from beatings, imprisonments, stonings, shipwrecks and even snakebites. He accounts these scars of more value than the circumcision the Judaizers attempt to force on new Gentile believers in Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:16
1Cor 2:16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to advise him? But we have the mind of Christ.

All believers have received the indwelling Holy Spirit, the 3rd person within the triune Godhead, through whom they are counseled, guided and led, as He, Jesus and Yahweh God the Father are one.

Romans 7:19
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but I do the very evil I do not want!

Paul is relating his own pre-Salvation experience, which is shared by every Christian, until after accepting Christ, they are spiritually strengthened to no longer sin habitually, but when they do transgress have an immediate remedy, by asking for and receiving God's forgiveness.

These verses should be studied in context, normally considered three verses before and three verses following. Specifying an entire chapter often means nothing, for the Holy Scriptures were not originally written in chapters or verses. These divisions were arbitrarily added:

The chapter divisions were developed by Stephen Langton, an Archbishop of Canterbury in around A.D. 1227, & are on occasion, disruptive of a continuing thought or teaching.

The Hebrew Old Testament was divided into verses by a Jewish rabbi named Nathan in A.D. 1448, while Robert Estienne, also known as Stephanus, was the first to divide the New Testament into standard numbered verses, in 1555.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

How many Christian homes have you personally surveyed for the presence of Bibles, and for their location in the home??

How many Christians have you quarried regarding the frequency and longevity of their home Scripture reading and study?

How, precisely does this inform you of that home owner's closeness in his/her relationship with the living God?

Planetary Astrology originated in Babylonia, before it was adopted into Greece, and just as Sunday is named for the Sun, Saturday is named for the god, Saturn, after whom the planet was named.

- and your point is?

FYI, when Christians carry their Bible to their Worship Service with them, it is not for show, nor is it to please their pastor, but to keep his teachings in line with that Bible.

We are commanded to verify everything our religious leader teaches us from Scripture, with Scripture, for God's recorded Word is given us that we may know God's truth; plan of salvation, expectations, commandments and exhortations.

When we are obedient, we do not depend on any man's explanation as to the meaning of Scripture. We verify it as the Bereans did.

Instead, we are to judge the truthfulness and accuracy of that teacher/evangelist by Scripture.

Only Scripture interprets Scripture, as "iron sharpens iron."

Not by Talmud, composed of Mishnah (man's commentary on Scripture) and Gemara (man's commentary on man's commentary).

An ancient truthism within Christianity:

"You don't judge the Bible by what your preacher says.

You judge your preacher/pastor by what the Bible says."

Many Christians no longer carry their Bible with them, for many Churches provide pew Bibles for their worshipper's convenience.

To know whom or what Christians worship requires Spiritual understanding, received through faith in Jesus Christ.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

The Scripture from John 5 you reference at the bottom of your page is a direct rebuke to the Mishnah Soteh 9 you quote at the top of the page, for Jesus rebukes those Rabbis who exorbitantly praise and lament each other, instead of their Messiah as they blindly and laboriously pore over Torah and Talmud. They turn to God only when all their highly praised fellow Rabbis are taken from them, instead of seeking Him first. (In the future, this will describe their acceptance of the antiChrist):

Jesus Christ:

"You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me,"I do not accept glory from men, but I know you, that you do not have the love of God within you. I have come in My Father’s name, and you have not received Me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will receive him."
John 5:39-43

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

My response to your comment is less than timely, after a two month lapse.

I'm playing catch up this week, due to a surgical procedure, between the recent deaths of two different individuals who had significant roles in my life.
Reality must takes precedent over the suppositions of a website forum at times, even such an all-engaging site as OPP.

Personally, I've never seen any peculiarity in Paul's ministry or message, or any conflict with that of His Lord and Master, Jesus the Christ.

What I might refer to as Mariology, if I were so inclined, are the teachings Augustine implemented about Mary.

Everything he taught in the fifth century refuted Jesus' own words regarding her, and the Christian canon was, at that point, closed. John Calvin later compounded Augustine's errors by idolizing and mimicking him.

Anyone who meant me harm, I would regard as an enemy first and foremost, whether or not a spy. I suspect James did at first feel that Paul was an interloper, having not been there from the beginning of Jesus' ministry, as had His original disciples. As the veteran civil rights activists would say, "He wasn't down for the struggle."

I've never felt any need to psychoanalyze any of them, as they did, through the power and enablement of the Holy Spirit, fulfill their missions.

God does have a tendency to speak what He wishes to whomever He wishes, whenever and in whatever tone of voice He wishes, doesn't He? Jesus' initial message for Paul was just that, for Paul's ears only...

Drat Nab it.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Seeking information on Biblical Judaism from those who label themselves Orthodox would be futile, for with the inception of the oral Torah and Rabbinical Judaism, Jesus' admonitions against ignoring God's word by following only man made traditions has doubled and even tripled.

The Ultra-Orthodox are steeped in medieval Occultism bordering on witchcraft, utilizing practices completely foreign to the Bible and to the Holy Spirit who inspired it.

My intention was not to give the impression I was unfamiliar with current day Jewish customs, holidays, feast days, or even the differences between the Orthodox who are approximately 10% of the Jews in the U.S., Conservatives 40%, Reform 40%, Reconstructionists 1%, and various other smaller sects, including the Ultra-Orthodox (1% to 2%).

As a guest, I have attended Shabbat services, as well as the Feast of Tabernacles, Sukkot, and the High Holy Days at various Temples, Synagogues, and in homes.

Having attended at least 15 different Pesach seders in the past, I am familiar with the seder meal, the readings of the Haggadah, and the songs that are sung.

As to children and the charoset, I wouldn't feed it to them because of the sweet wine it contains... with chopped walnuts, fruit, spices, etc.

I always enjoyed it, especially with horseradish, because the meal itself is bland.

Because I have Celiac, my diet never contains wheat, barley, rye, spelt or oats in order to maintain a gluten-free diet.

There has been for several years now, a gluten-free matzah ball soup mix, and gluten-free matzah.

Obviously not for passover, but also Udi's makes gluten free bagels.

I have attended services and conventions attended by "Jews for Jesus," and found them to be delightful Jewish Christians.

The one group I have found to be unspeakably obnoxious and Christian hating were those who identify themselves as "Jews for Judaism," as they consider Christianity itself to be a cult.

IMHO, any one who reads the 53rd Psalm and does not recognize the person of Jesus Christ is willfully blind to reality, or being less than honest with themselves and others.