Armageddun Loc: The show me state

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I must say I see myself as an inch worm between 2 knowledgable giants of the scriptures. Let me try my best to express my heart in the matter of laying the teachings of Jesus next to the teachings of Paul.

As we all know Jesus was not a Christian He was a Jew. He said I have not come to DESTROY THE LAW but to FULFILL IT.

In another place He said, YOU HAVE HEARD IT SAID do not commit adultery (Example), but I SAY TO YOU if a man looks at a woman to lust after her in his heart he has committed adultery.

It is my belief that Jesus was explaining the Spirit of the Law, not the letter of the Law which only a perfect person could keep. If it were possible for a man or woman to go through life without once breaking the letter or the Spirit of the law, they would still not go to heaven because Jesus said, I AM the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through me John 14:6-7. I think you agree that no one is perfect except God.

God initiated the animal sacrifice all the way back in the garden when He made a covering for Adam and Eve when their eyes were opened to their nakedness due to their sin of disobedience.

Blood is the redeeming principle down through the ages. In John 1:1 it is written, in the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. John 1:14 says The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, we have SEEN his glory, the glory of the One and only, who came from the Father full of grace and truth.

Because I believe the WHOLE Bible to be the inspired Word of God, I believe that Jesus was God in the flesh and the shedding of His blood was the final blood offering for the forgiveness of sin.

Jesus was explaining the Spirit of the Law, Paul was explaining the application of living out the teachings of Jesus.

Whenever Paul said anything that didn't come from the teaching of Jesus or the leading of the Holy Spirit, he identified the fact that it was his opinion 1 Cor. 7:6 notice 7:10; 12. 7:17-19; 25. It is my belief that Paul did not waver from the Spirit of Christ teaching. If and when he did he mentioned the fact that it was HIS thinking. I believe that the Bible is not only the Word of God, I believe he gave us discernment to apply the precepts and principles to apply to those situations and circumstances where there is not a word for word instruction on how to deal with a specific situation. I trust the Word of Paul to follow the Word of Jesus, Who as a human followed the Word of His Father, Jesus who was God in the flesh is the Word.

I wish I were on the educational level as you and the author of this subject. I only know one language and that is "red neck." I pray that what I do believe is pleasing to God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Like Popeye said, I am's what I am's. If I'm wrong, I pray that God opens my mind to the truth. 2 Cor. 4:3-4. Hope this answers your question.

As Ever,
Glen

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Glen,

I appreciate your time and your most valued input. First, do not sell yourself short. I speak only for myself, I am not a knowledgeable giant on scripture. So, relax. We are only discussing what we have read and our opinions of those words. It is alright to express your opinions. After all, is it not written "Let the wise hear and increase in learning, and the one who understands obtain guidance...." Wise people look for opportunities to learn more. I am not wise, but I am searching for understanding.

What you wrote is very interesting and accurate. But, I asked some real specific questions in my comment.... do you not want to discuss them? If that is the case, then we can certainly discuss any topic you wish.

Armageddun Loc: The show me state

I am always interested in other's point of view. We can give it a whirl. You start, I'll try to respond.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Glen,

I did.... I asked several questions..... go to page 1, see my first comments?????.... there are several questions in that comment. I suppose you need me to write them out personally to you.. Okay....

Jesus taught the message of Kingdom, See Matthew chapters 3, 4, and 9. Requires repentance, baptism, and faith + works. See Deuteronomy chapter 28, Zechariah chapter 14, Isaiah chapters 2 and 11, and Matthew chapter 19. Content of message was Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of G*d. And as proclaimed by Jesus the Kingdom (Luke chapter 17) is inside of everyone. This message, as you can read was also taught by John the Baptizer, the cousin of Jesus.


Saul/Paul taught Replacement Doctrine.... see Acts, 1 Corinthians 15, requires faith alone, and the church became the “chosen people” of G*d replacing the Jew.


Can you explain why the change in doctrine? As a Christian, which doctrine should be followed?

Next question is about Revelations..... why did Jesus' give Revelations to John and not to Saul/Paul? If he, Paul/Saul, was indeed the "last apostle" or number 13..... why did Jesus tell John to write letters to the "churches" of Asia --all gentile churches started by Saul/Paul and his disciples? Does this not strike you as odd? One would think, because Jesus' had been talking directly to Saul/Paul, that he would have continued to use him as His messenger.

When you think about these, not so simple, questions do not give me the writings or thoughts of others, I am digging for what you think, what you know. This is not a test or quiz, so do not stress that I am or anyone is sitting her giving you a grade.... I want, and value your thoughts and opinions.

You may notice something different about my reference as opposed to others.... I want you to know the verses that came before (that sets the stage of events.... place, time, who was there, and why the words are said) and the verses that came after that provides you with results... how was the words received. That is why I only reference chapters. To me, quoting a verse is like walking in on a meeting, hearing only a few words and being forced to make a life changing decision. I hope you understand.

Armageddun Loc: The show me state

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This will require some time for study and research. I didn't tell you but we had a hail storm come through in late Feb. They are starting replacing roofs on our property tomorrow. They delivered the shingles for the house today so it may be a while before I have quiet time to focus. I will respond asap.

Just a quick note, I cannot understand why you would include 1 Cor. 15 as an example of Paul not agreeing with the teaching of Jesus because he concludes, that if Christ has not risen (which Jesus continually taught), to paraphrase, that our faith is in vain.

In addition, off the top of my head, I believe it was James who was head of the church in Jerusalem when Paul and Peter and others took their different approaches in worshiping the risen savior to try to get a decision.

James concluded that Paul could continue to teach and preach as he was as long as he remembered to take care of the helpless and poor. So it would seem that James authenticated Paul's preaching and teaching.


As far as faith vs works, both Paul and James agreed on salvation by faith which will by its nature produces works. IMHO it doesn't make sense that works produce faith. Good works may produce confidence and a good feeling to oneself which can lead to pride. To me, it requires faith (purpose, reason) to produce works. Which certainly happens when one realizes the good news of the Gospel. Please be patient with me. I will put proper scripture with my response. I am just speaking off the top of my head at this point.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Take your time, and I hope all goes well with the repairs. I am taking this off my watch list.... it seems that no one has an actual interest in the subject.

no propaganda please Loc: moon orbiting the third rock from the sun

Actually I am finding your discussion very interesting. Unfortunately I do not know enough to ask useful questions but am learning a great deal from the experts.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Happy Resurrection Day to you, Ginny/Pennylynn.

I haven't been by this forum (OPP) for two weeks...

and I find Kindergarten lessons.

Well, Ginny/Pennylynn, isn't your little old list just about the most arrogant and demanding mickey mouse b.s. I've seen for awhile?

In that length of time, with such an intense interest in these theories of "Bible Doctrine" you've accumulated for your display, had you held in check your superciliousness, concentrating instead on serious cross referencing, and even more serious prayer, you could well have worked out a Biblical solution to the questions you have been unable to answer for yourself.

For has God not said in Proverbs 3:5-6: "Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct your paths." Those two commands are mutually exclusive, one negative, one positive.

If you trust in the Lord, which would be a good thing, you cannot simultaneously depend upon your own ability to understand everything God has done or is doing; nor can you cursorily demand that others slavishly obey as you crack your whip.

1. FYI: What I explain as well as to whom I explain it is at my own discretion, not yours.

2. Being born of the Spirit, I really do not do "Legalese." - "for where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." (2nd Corinthians 3:17)

The gospel of Jesus was not taught by Jesus, until after the Resurrection of Jesus, because that is the message of the gospel. That seems self-explanatory to me.

Until that time, the devout Jews, Jesus and His disciples, taught Jewish themes. The kingdom of God is referenced hundreds of times in the Jewish Scriptures, which were the only Scriptures in existence at that time, and the prophecies were well known to their culture.

The pagan polytheistic culture of the gentiles, already familiar to Paul, did not require Jewish themes to be understood. It would have been a detriment.

The Apostle Paul did not teach that the Jewish people were replaced by the Body of Christ. Evil minded pseudo-Christians have chosen to believe and teach that, and they will someday be forced to give an explanation to the Almighty as to why.

The Jewish people and the Gentiles were, and will always be, two separate entities. The Body of Christ is a third separate entity, comprised of both, those Jews and gentiles - whomsoever will choose Jesus. That is confirmable within God's Word.

Google it.

You are misreading the Scriptures. Had you searched for Biblical proof of that during the last two weeks, you would now have it at your fingertips.

Paul was a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee, and the grandson of a Pharisee. As a youth, his parents sent him to Jerusalem to study under Israel's greatest Pharisee Rabbi at that time, Rabban Gamel'il, a.k.a. Gamali'el the Elder. From the age of 12 to 18, he had a classic education in Torah/Talmud.

He cheerfully renounced that in one fell swoop for Jesus Christ, his Messiah.

He was a Hellenist Jew, born in Tarsus, a vibrant Roman city on the southeast coast of Cilicia, in what was then Asia Minor, and is now Turkey, situated 300 miles north of Jerusalem.

He spoke fluent Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic, and was born a Roman citizen, as was his father.

Paul was born with one foot in each camp, and able to navigate in both. God chose him as His Apostle to the Gentile nations.

The Apostle, Paul was executed in 67 or 68 A.D. The Revelation of Jesus to His beloved Apostle, John, took place in 96 A.D.

Jesus had promised John he would outlive the others. That was God's choice and timetable.

The Jewish religious rulers of Paul's day hated him intensely, and repeatedly plotted and attempted to kill him.

How little two thousand years appear to have changed the hearts and minds of those who belittle and malign him today.


Again, Happy Resurrection Day to you, Ginny/Pennylynn.

bahmer

Happy Resurrection Day to you as well Zemirah you have been missed on here as well. Thanks for showing up on here I wish it would be more frequent.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

So very interesting..... instead of answering my questions you decide to make personal attacks. How very Pauline of you. If you read many of his letters, he spent an inordinate amount of time attacking others.

I do find it interesting that you quote Proverbs 3:5-6 to make your point. First, G*d did not write Proverbs or dictate it as He did in the "Laws", it was written by King Solomon. This is why it is classified as "writings" rather than "Law" or "Prophecy." The book of Proverbs, part of the "writings" is interesting and much can be learned from this book. So, thank you. This book is about "wisdom" an entire book of generational principles that applies to everyone. At the heart of it... seek wisdom and make wise decisions. To cherry pick a verse, in my thinking, misses the mark. To truly understand a book we need to consider it in completeness. The book opens with: "The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel, (are): To know wisdom and discipline, to comprehend words of understanding; To receive the discipline of wisdom, righteousness, justice, and equity; To give prudence to the simple, knowledge and discretion to the youth. Let the wise man hear and increase learning. The understanding man shall acquire wise counsels..." So many today take the quote you gave as meaning that G*d will whisper in the ear how He wants us to go as individuals, all the correct decisions without effort on our part, the decision He wants us to make. This is contrary to what is taught. We have free will to make decisions and those who are faithful, those who study and ask question, follow the laws, keep the covenant will know in their hearts what decision to make. In other words, G*d has already given us the tools to make the correct choices... apply them to daily life. Going onward, many modern people think that the verses you quoted means that we should all think of ourselves as stupid or complete idiots. This also seems counter to teachings, again... "let the wise man hear and increase in learning..." Rather this verse logically means that we are not smarter than G*d. More clearly, G*d has shown the way of wisdom, walk in it. That includes to fear him and shun evil. Do so, and you will be blessed for it. The modern view is the lazy view, it does not require much... it is easy and it can make us feel really spiritual, but it just is not true. The ancient view did not rest on feelings. In fact, it would rely more on self-control where control of feelings instead of allowing feeling to be in control. It is a life of discipline that is not easy. I suppose then I can understand why many have so often moved to an easier view and expecting G*d to make all the decisions for us.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Gamali'el the Elder, of whom the Mishnah says “When Rabban Gamaliel the elder died, the glory of the law ceased and purity and abstinence died” (m.Sota 9.15) is recorded as giving advise in the 1st century against attacking Jesus' Apostles:

Acts 5:29 But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.

Acts 5:30 “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross.

Acts 5:31 “He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 5:32 “And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

Acts 5:33 But when they heard this, they (the Jewish religious leaders) were cut to the quick and intended to kill them.

Acts 5:34 "... a Pharisee named Gamali'el, a teacher of the Law, respected by all the people, stood up in the Council and gave orders to put the men outside for a short time.

Acts 5:35 And he said to them, “Men of Israel, take care what you propose to do with these men.

Acts 5:36 “For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a group of about four hundred men joined up with him. But he was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing.

Acts 5:37 “After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census and drew away some people after him; he too perished, and all those who followed him were scattered.

Acts 5:38 “So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown;

Acts 5:39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God.”


The God of Abraham inspired every Word written in Holy Scripture. If God did not write Proverbs, it would be worthless.

Solomon, within himself alone wrote absolutely nothing.

They are the words of Solomon only in the sense that God uses the personalities and individual styles of His prophets through whom to write.

They are not puppets, as Satan would desire them to be.

Again, I attack no one, I speak the truth in love (not the huggy bear, sloppy kisses, eros love).

I lack sufficient interest in anyone to bother attacking them.

The questions I answered, you fail to perceive.

Acts 15:11 "On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Thanks be to God, Ginny, my sight is not spiritually veiled, - nor do I bear any ill-will toward anyone.

It would require more effort than I care to expend toward user names on a website.

It is your personal attack upon the Word of God delivered though His spoken messengers which I defend against, the misinterpretation and misapplication.

After routinely attacking, the Apostle Paul and his God-given message of the gospel of Jesus the Christ to all mankind,
in a manner that would be offensive to millions of the earth's inhabitants, to then portray oneself as unjustly set upon... -

Even to a disinterested bystander, this is an observable pattern, a constant.

There is no attack by yet another big, bad villain, nor is there a poor set-upon virtuous victim whenever anyone looks upon you cross-eyed.

As to whom is attacking who in reference to the Apostle Paul:

God gave to Paul the ability to truthfully analyze others' spiritual conditions. For this the Jewish religious leaders repeatedly plotted to kill him:


Acts 9:22-24 "But Saul was empowered all the more, and he confounded the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Christ. After many days had passed, the Jews conspired to kill him, but Saul learned of their plot. Day and night they watched the city gates in order to kill him."

Acts 23:11-13 The following night the Lord stood by Paul and said, “Take courage! As you have testified about Me in Jerusalem, so also you must testify in Rome.”

When daylight came, the Jews formed a conspiracy and bound themselves with an oath not to eat or drink until they had killed Paul.
More than forty of them were involved in this plot."


I would be deeply honored to, in any way, be able to emulate the Apostle Paul of Tarsus.

Each verse in God's Word can stand alone, complete in thought and meaning, and a complete topic study in God's Word is a mosaic formed of verses often plucked from different chapters of different books, which fit together.

Having read God's word through for the first time, in it's entirety, at the age of nine, I know what He has taught me. That is sufficient.

bahmer

Awesome you always are able to lift me up in your brief studies. Thank you for your insight into the scriptures. Again Thank You.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Thank you, Bahmer,

I trust your day was blessed, - for that matter, I hope you find every day to be blessed by our Lord.

I'm developing another new Bible based website or two at present, and am usually found in my favorite chair, laptop perched on my own lap, 12 Bible themed reference/history books stacked on each side of the chair, and 24 hour BBC news on cable, droning from the front of the room...

This gives sufficient illusion of productivity that I can then doze off.

There is great joy in retirement, is there not?

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

npp, I assure you IF it were written in language you couldn't understand, it would have another author, one of those literary luminaries with a more sparkling intellect, but thank you.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

I've been AWOL, Armageddun, from OPP, but do so appreciate your exaggerated praise that I can hardly contain myself.

I'll have to visit again in a few weeks.

Seriously, when I compare your 10, 484 messages sent to my paltry 1,977 (and I joined OPP before you), I have some serious catching up to do, - but that's not going to happen.

Thank you for so eloquently defending the Word of our Lord.