nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

I was referring to when man was created; so did God know the nature of man when he created us.

What I mean is that both communism and capitalism require something form man in order to work, which is not necessarily a part of man's natural psyche. Communism requires that everyone work for the common good but of course it is in man's nature to want to take more for himself; possibly a biological instinct to insure the passage of the genes. And in capitalism, man needs to eventually give back to the community rather than hoarding his wealth/goods, depriving the less fortunate/less intelligent/less skilled. You can probably describe this better than I can. But that's what I was referring to.

The one percenter's of today are essentially destroying the system which has allowed them to prosper. They take and take, driven by greed, while in many cases, put nothing back into the system. The result is an unstable system of have's and have not's. Eventually, the instability is manifest in frustrations being misinterpreted as bigotry/racism/elitism/etc.

HedgeHog

Well, you're wrong, of course.

Socialism/Communism DOESN'T work, simply because of man's competitive nature. That doesn't imply that man is always out to exploit others for his own sake only. Capitalism DOES work, because of that competitive nature. But capitalism, because it involves risk taking and forethought (thinking about the needs of the future) necessarily implies innovation and it is that which takes mankind forward, not backward. AND provides for those less able.

There are true capitalists, as I just described, then there are what I call the "rogue" capitalists, or the renegades. Remember my topic on Galt's Gulch, "The Most Dangerous Game"? That explains part of it. That part that is in the nature of some men to become enamored of the game itself, the risk. When competition becomes an end in itself. I believe the renegades also get a "taste" of the power, and arrogance, associated with "winning", and it's the power that can become an addiction. Chasing that high. It is never about greed.

At any rate, Socialism and Communism or any other variant of Marxism demeans the individual, exalting the masses, the mediocre, over the uniqueness of each individual. That is another important cause for its failure, and the malignancy of its ideology.

Jesus said it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get into heaven. He meant not that being wealthy would keep one from getting into heaven; it is the arrogance that accompanies great accumulations of wealth---or knowledge---that diminishes one's spirit.

You know, I think if one studies the biography of men such as Henry Ford, or Bill Gates, he would see that these men started out, not with the purpose of gouging his neighbor, but they ended, after a taste of power and influence, with an arrogance that made them believe they know more, and thus could, and should, have more control over the lives of others.

Anyway, you seem to be coming from a very religious viewpoint, and I don't care for that.

God said that it is through evolution that a robust people for a robust planet was created. Who are you to argue with that?

Competition is necessary. And He also said, (when I asked what children do when they first realize they are not the only one their mother loves), They become competitive. Because they become competitive doesn't mean they are out to get their brother.

Loki Loc: Georgia

Yes, but as I mentioned, he shore has a purty mouth.

Carol Kelly

We can only wish. Every good American should leave California with Nestle and then just sit back and watch things disappear as in swallowed up by the earth. Brown had his brain fried many years ago. How does he continue to be elected? I know...the illegals and the druggies and brain dead Hollywood. At least, can we make Pelosi and SAN Francisco
disappear?

HedgeHog

Damn, nwtk. I thought I was writing you a PM! Now the whole world knows!! How could I have made that mistake?

lindajoy Loc: right here with you....

Soros immediately came to mind regarding your second paragraph...

Men instinctively look to succeed and provide, raised to protect family it carries on to their own later...

Capitalism being the way and means hopefully instills in us a natural desire to see all prosper from their own efforts.. When unable to do so it never hurts to lend a help up...The more that prosper from their own endeavors the better we, as a society are, ultimately, yes??

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

"God said that it is through evolution that a robust people for a robust planet was created." God said that? I don't disagree with it, but I also didn't know "he" said it. This is funny, in a way. I am certainly not trying to be religious. When I say God, I am referring to that great unknown; that something of the universe gave rise to man, and not necessarily as the apex being. Evolution, in truth, doesn't select for "intelligence." But I have the background to be able to speak the language.

Thanks for your explanation. I told you. You can articulate it much better than I. Obviously competition is the essence of what man needs to grow and survive. Capitalism also, obviously, is the means to that in society. I would question, however, our governmental systems. It seems there have been successful systems with "rulers", "kings", etc with the base of society essentially capitalistic beneath that umbrella. Remember the Atreides' planet Caledon; the Atreides were the beloved rulers but the economy was essentially that of a capitalistic society.

lindajoy Loc: right here with you....

yes it does...

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

[quote=lindajoy]Soros immediately came to mind regarding your second paragraph...

Men instinctively look to succeed and provide, raised to protect family it carries on to their own later...

Capitalism being the way and means hopefully instills in us a natural desire to see all prosper from their own efforts.. When unable to do so it never hurts to lend a help up...The more that prosper from their own endeavors the better we, as a society are, ultimately, yes??[/quote

Maybe what our system of capitalism has lost is Honor.

HedgeHog

I think that is a good way to look at it.

lindajoy Loc: right here with you....

[quote=nwtk2007][quote=lindajoy]Soros immediately came to mind regarding your second paragraph...

Men instinctively look to succeed and provide, raised to protect family it carries on to their own later...

Capitalism being the way and means hopefully instills in us a natural desire to see all prosper from their own efforts.. When unable to do so it never hurts to lend a help up...The more that prosper from their own endeavors the better we, as a society are, ultimately, yes??[/quote

Maybe what our system of capitalism has lost is Honor.[/quote]

Greed has replaced Honor...Yes...

lindajoy Loc: right here with you....

My simple logic to it all and Thank You..

I much enjoyed your post you thought was a PM...

It was as enlightening as enjoyable to decipher..Also well said!!

Mikeyavelli

I am well traveled, well read, socially active, and I don't personally know anyone who I would perceive as greedy.
...when will illiar decide that taking donations for the benefit of others (bill and Chelsea ) is enough. They are the definition of greed and grift, yet, they are praised as beneficent gods.

HedgeHog

1. Why doesn't evolution select for intelligence? I just found this out: Homo sapiens sapiens was the only species of the genus Homo to emerge from the Paleolithic Age. I think it was because H.sapiens sapiens had the better ability to conceptualize, and a more advanced form of foresight. Thus H. sapiens sapiens was in a better position to exercise control over the environment in times of rapidly changing climate, than the other Homo species.

2. I don't remember Caledon; however, an economic system and a governing system are separate, yet related. Remember my topic (CarolSeer's topic) "Countervailing Powers"---"When the holders of property and the holders of knowledge, either scientific or religious, align with the sword and the purse, then power becomes concentrated and freedom vanishes."
Here's a link to that topic: It's a good starter if you're interested in forming good governments.

http://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-23382-1.html

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

Good to hear from you.

Fitness is determined by reproductive success. Intelligence my gut have some selection strength, we will see. But, how long has it been around, and look what it does to its world.

Now Caladan. The Atreides home world. You should reread Dune. Herbert was ahead of the curve.

Trying not to be too obscure. But, there's the mystery!